Coral Toxin......

[masterswimmer]

......also known as palytoxin

If you've been involved in the hobby long enough you've heard about someone being squirt by zoa's, yuma's, palythoa's, etc. The toxin from these animals can range from inert or mildly problematic to downright fatal. The body part that receives the toxic squirt will play a part in the severity of the reaction. Each individual will exhibit a reaction that varies from the next person based on their own allergic response.

Since this can actually be a very serious occurrence, I wonder if the 'juice', toxin or venom from yuma's, zoo's, and paly's, can be used to create an anti-venom like they do with the venom from rattlesnakes and other poisonous reptiles.

Putting this out there for discussion...........

Russ

 

[Dre]

It probably could be used in Cancer research.

 

[motortrendz]

the difference is its not a venom its a toxin.. so dont know if that makes a difference.. and gonna throw this out there to it take 10,000 droplets (one droplet per bite) if a black widdow to make enough for an anti venom..

 

[TRIGGERMAN]

venom is a toxin too..
I'm sure anything can be used to make the opposite it just comes down to distinguishing the chemical compound

 

[lfsmarineguy]

Never heard of yuma's having toxins. I mean i still wouldn't put one in my mouth or rub it in a cut but this is the first I am hearing this. Also, isn't an "inert toxin" sort of an oxymoron?

I don't think enough people overall are injured or killed by these substances to warrant the effort necessary to create the remedy. Cancer and other more widespread toxins are a much larger concern. It's the good old "squeeky wheel" effect.

 

[motortrendz]

venom is a toxin too..
I'm sure anything can be used to make the opposite it just comes down to distinguishing the chemical compound

i understand that but the way they affect u is different...

 

[noodleman]

i'm sure it can be made, but is it really practical is the real question. It would depend on the onset and mechanism of the toxin itself. Pretty much every kind of toxin/poision works on the molecular level by binding to a receptor or target in our body. I believe palytoxin creates a irresversible bond, so unless you have the antitoxin near by at the time of innoculation it would be useless. While on the other hand snake venoms are enzymes which are designed to destroy cellular components, which are easier to target with an antivenom

 

[greenycrew]

It really isn't all that difficult to make an antitoxin. Just inject the toxin into another animal, not enough to kill it immediately, wait a few days for the animal to begin making antibodies, and then harvest the blood and purify the antitoxin antibodies. However, like other posters have mentioned whether or not the antitoxin would be effective depends on the pharmacokinetics of receptor binding of palytoxin and the speed at which the antitoxin is delivered. Also, you never know the tolerability of a certain antibody in vivo and whether it will result in immediate anaphylaxis.

 

[noodleman]

to build upon what greenycrew said, the toxin would also need to be able to elicit an immune response from the animal inorder to produce the antitoxin in that fashion. So if the particular toxin isn't antigenic, no antibodies would be made by the animal to be harvested as an antitoxin

 

[masterswimmer]

Never heard of yuma's having toxins. I mean i still wouldn't put one in my mouth or rub it in a cut but this is the first I am hearing this.

There is currently a thread posted on MR about someone who was squirted by their yuma. I had never heard of it prior to that either. However, there are too many things in the ocean, and in this hobby that can occur that I would never profess to know everything and say it couldn't happen.

greeny & Alvin, good information. Thanks. Although most of what you guys wrote is miles above me, I believe the bottom line is that it is possible to protect us, the unsuspecting hobbyist. Do you believe it would be absolutely necessary to manufacture the antitoxin from the exact strain of coral the person was inoculated with? In other words, would an antitoxin made from a zoanthid be effective against the toxin released from a palythoa?

Russ

 

[noodleman]

theoretically, if the toxin between two different corals are similar in structure molecularly than yes an antitoxin made from one will be effective for the other. But i still think it is more about geting the antitoxin to the victum in time rather than producing one. By the time they get you to the hospital, it'll probably be too late for an antitoxin and supportative care would be the treatment of choice like life support machines till the toxin degrades by itself

 

[SevTT]

It really isn't all that difficult to make an antitoxin. Just inject the toxin into another animal, not enough to kill it immediately, wait a few days for the animal to begin making antibodies, and then harvest the blood and purify the antitoxin antibodies. However, like other posters have mentioned whether or not the antitoxin would be effective depends on the pharmacokinetics of receptor binding of palytoxin and the speed at which the antitoxin is delivered. Also, you never know the tolerability of a certain antibody in vivo and whether it will result in immediate anaphylaxis.

This assumes that the body will produce antigens for the toxin. This isn't always necessarily the case. Also, while you can make antivenoms, because these tend to be protein-based, large molecules which evince an immune response, 'toxins' is a much larger group of chemical creatures, many of which cause no immune response at all (unless it's collapse.)

Palytoxin isn't a protein -- it's an extremely complex hydrocarbon. So I'm going to guess that there's a pretty good chance that you couldn't make an antitoxin using standard antivenom-production techniques.

 

[Spracklcat]

Right, that was my guess too, that you can only elicit an antibody resposne against a protein. I did find a paper where they made antibodies against a component of palytoxin for research purposes. Palytoxin is not specific to any marine animal, in fact it is theorized that it is made by microbes and injested by the corals and used. I share the opinion that there is no antivenom because there is almost no call for it,it is extremely expensive to make, and antivenoms can cause their own problems. For the little irritations that aquarists get a doctor wouldn't give an antivenom.

My guess too is that a lot of what we aquarists are calling "palytoxin poisoning" isn't palytoxin at all, or not entirely. Remember that marine venoms are extremely complex and contain lots of different components. And if you look back through the years, you can find maybe two confirmed cases of palytoxin in aquarists, but loads of infections with bacteria.

(oh and--a toxin is a single chemical which is toxic to something, a venom is a complex combination of toxins, sometimes allergens, tissue dissolvers, and other delicious things).

complements to MR--this is one of the best most rational discussions of PTX I've seen . and awesome question, House!

 

[lfsmarineguy]

I understand the science aspect but I can't speak on it. As for the fiscal side of this it just doesn't make sense. If it is that difficult or even possible to make the antigen for palytoxin, then it would be so expensive that no hospital would have it laying around since the odds of needing it within it's probably short shelf life would be incredibly slim. The person having been inoculated would have to get to the hospital before they even had pronounced symptoms to have any chance of survival, if what was said above is true. It can't be sold publicly and even it it was the price tag would make it out of reach for most and a waste of money regardless.

 

[lfsmarineguy]

As for an explanation of the yuma "squirt". Your yumas are not targetting you for death because you took them out of the water to frag them or move them. This effect falls under "Path of Least Resistance". The tissue of the disc is much denser and more leathery than those inside the mouth since the disc is directly exposed to the elements and predation . The pressure of the water they have taken on will rupture the internal tissue before it rips through the disc. Since all it takes is a little bit of water to inflate their tissue, a small pin hole tear is usually enough to release the pressure. I doubt it will cause any long term harm to most mushrooms but it is always best to try and get them to close up before taking anything out of the water. Coral tissue is designed to hold water under water where their tissue is supported by the surrounding water density. Out of water this support is gone and the tissues can't handle it.

 

[greenycrew]

If we want to get really compex... Of course you can make antibodies to non protein molecules. It is just that you can not iso-type switch from an IgM to IgG antibody and make a long lasting memory response. If you don't believe me look at the pneumovax 23 vaccine composed of polyvalent polysaccharides. The reason why non-protein vaccines are less effective is because they only last 2-5 years.

 

[masterswimmer]

Okay, here's the deal guys. Since I'm the original poster (btw, not house Christine ), I'm going to ask if you guys can dummy this down......a LOT for me to understand wtf you're talking about. I'd really appreciate it. And I bet lots of other members/readers would too :hug:

The information you're disseminating is awesome, but it would be outstanding if we all understood it.

Thanks so much for taking the time to educate us.

Russ

 

[jrobbins]

+10 on that one so far my take away is "don't lick your corals."