phosphate export a three prong approach

[jhale]

Hello again MR people,

The topic of the day, or at least my day is getting my po4 test to read 0.0
It is now reading 1.5-2.0 on a salifert test kit
First the facts, the tank was filled with RO/DI water, the top off water is RO/DI, it tests 0 for po4. The live rock came from my old 55, which did not have the luxury of the RO/DI filter.

what I'm doing about it.
? adding a po4 reactor filled with the media from 2 little fishies, it's iron based.
? adding red phosphate absorption pads in the media overflow of the sump, they are iron based as well.
? adding a fuge area to my sump for macro algae growth = phosphate uptake and removal.

So what more can I do. Increase water changes? I now change about 20-30 gallons a month on a 150 total gallon system.
anyone care to chime in with advice?

 

[alrha]

why use both media as iron based? why not try switching one to an aluminum based one (such as phosguard). Which reactor are you using, phosban?
if after some time you dont see your PO4 start to come down, then check the foods you are using, try to either feed less if possible, or switch to a different food.
keep us posted on your progress as you monitor your PO4.

 

[jhale]

From the research I did the iron based media where proven to be safer than the aluminum based ones. The aluminum based ones will leach the phosphate back into the water, the iron won't.
There was another downside to the aluminum, which I can't remember now, sorry. I'll have to go back and read the articles again. The reactor I ordered is the 2 little fishies brand. It is well built, but a pain to change the media. Cost wise it was the best deal, $30. I'll take that over a convenient $150 model. You don't need to change the media that often.
The tank has been fish-less for six weeks, the fish were in QT, so that leads me to believe the po4 is bound up in the live rock from the previous tank. po4 will attach to liverock, and sandbeds. It just takes time to get rid of it. I feed the fish lightly, so that should not be an additional source. I will do updates and let you know how it going. I'm expecting the levels to drop pretty quickly at first, as there is nothing keeping the po4 in check now. I'm wondering how long it will take for the last residue of the po4 to be removed.

 

[alrha]

i am not familiar with the time frame for 2 fishies, but i know phosguard absorbs as much PO4 as possible within 4 days, after which point the media would be changed till PO4 reads 0.

 

[jhale]

the 2LF's product is called phosban, it sounds similar. they did not give a time limit, but did say the output of the reactor must be monitored. Once the levels go up it's time to change the media. the reactor holds 150g, we'll see how long it lasts.

 

[alrha]

oh, so you are using the phosban with the phosban reactor. have you tried to contact them to know how long the media should be left in before it is exhausted? when it is at 0 you know to change it once PO4 can be detected, but until then how do you know if it can still absorb more PO4? there must be a time frame in which the media will have absorbed as much PO4 as it ever will.

Also Phosguard does not release the PO4 back into the system after it is exhausted (at least as claimed by Seachem).

 

[jhale]

Yeah, I did not know what the name of the 2LF's product was, I had to look it up.
I'll have to ask them, but I don't think there is a time limit. It depends on how much phosphate is in the water. If there is less the media will last longer. I think you have to test often and when you detect po4 coming out the reactor then you change the media. at least that's how I took the instructions.
I like seachem's products, I went with phosban because it was made by the same company as the reactor. I read on RC that people will change the media anywhere from four months to eight months.

 

[yessongs]

Jon, when the levels go up its time to change the media.
I also use this in the phosban reactor, but it can cause RTN if you use too much. www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idproduct=RW1115

[ April 05, 2005, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: yessongs ]

 

[jhale]

Hi Robert,
The ROWAphos was tied with the Phosban in popularity, at least on RC. That's tricky about the product causing RTN, I guess it's better to use a little less than needed, than to use too much by mistake.

 

[alrha]

well that is the risk with iron based media. there aint no free lunch in this hobby. everything has a side effect - almost like pharmacuticals.

 

[yessongs]

I think the RTN was caused by removing PO4 too fast.
This was a problem with some SPS keepers.

[ April 05, 2005, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: yessongs ]

 

[jackson6745]

Jonathan, the iron based media is more effective than others such as phosguard IME. I would start using at 1/2 suggested dosage and slowly increase depending on your PO4 level and reaction of corals. Besides the media I still think you need a better skimmer for your tank....It will save you headaches.

 

[jhale]

Thanks Rich, I will add a new skimmer to my list, it will have to get in line behind the new MH, CA reactor, and chiller. ouch.

 

[jackson6745]

Originally posted by jhale:
Thanks Rich, I will add a new skimmer to my list, it will have to get in line behind the new MH, CA reactor, and chiller. ouch.

LOL...I feel your pain brother.
I would get the chiller first, then the better skimmer, and put the reactor last. You can make do with b ionic or just kalk and vinegar for quite sometime

 

[House of Laughter]

My experience in using PO4 removers (I used the polyfilter)is that it also removes your Iodine - I have found iodine to stop the RTN in my tank and use it religiously, and no, I don't test for it. I just use it.

As for water changes, nothing replaces fresh made water. If your RO/DI reads "0", then more frequent water changes are better than one larger one at a longer time. Also, if the accumulation is 1.5-2.0 at a month, do a beta test and change 1/2 the amount of water in 1/2 the time, get a reading, and then do the second 1/2 at the regularly scheduled monthly, and test again to see where it is. Since you are reducing it's increase over time, I think you'll have lower PO4 levels.

My .02

House

 

[harsaphes]

i think there is a thread on RC right now about not using the iron based product. might be in concern with RTN and the guys coral.

 

[jhale]

these are two threads discussing it.
JBNY was the first to say he was not going to use phosban anymore. He now uses it, but in small amounts.
I'm going to use half the amount recommended, and fill the rest of the reactor with a good quality carbon.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=563537&highlight=phosban

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=419143&highlight=phosban

 

[alrha]

threads such as those are what steered me away from those iron based ones to Phosguard.

 

[jhale]

Both forms have their downsides, did you read this article?

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/july2003/chem.htm

I don't know which is worse, having aluminum potentially leach into your water or iron.
I'm hoping the reactor will be temporary, and once I get enough macro growing in the sump that will take care of any remaining P.

I'm also going to use polyfilters in the sump. I built a media chamber into the baffles, so I can get complete water pass through.

[ April 06, 2005, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: jhale ]

 

[alrha]

you have a pic of that DIY media chamber in your baffles? i just put it in a mesh bag in the baffles. I was actually thinking of getting a reactor, but now maybe not. i'll have to think about it more.
now let me go read that article, thnx for the link.