Responsible Reefing Series #1- Unsuitable Species

[MaryHM]

I've decided to periodically throw out a major industry issue so everyone can benefit from debating highly sensitive issues. From the posts I've been seeing lately, unsuitable species definitely fall into that category. Therefore, the topic of Unsuitable Species will be the first in a series of "Responsible Reefing" issues that we'll discuss. I will begin each topic with my own personal view, and then look forward to the healthy debate that will follow!

Before we begin, let me remind everyone of the rules I posted in the Welcome message.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>I've been witnessing and participating in industry
threads for a few years now, and they always seem to get extremely heated.
That only makes sense, because most of these issues are very personal and we
are all quite passionate about our opinions. However, I will not tolerate
people flaming, getting personal, being continuosly sarcastic, or any other
similiar behavior. I expect everyone to treat each other's opinon's with
respect- even if they are completely off-base and ridiculous. Also, due
to the heated nature of the topics, I highly recommend that you read and
then reread the thread prior to posting. Lots of times people get all worked
up and respond to something they "thought" someone said. All that does is
create a lot of confusion and aggravation. <hr></blockquote>

Now, on to the debate!

I have posted in a couple of other threads what I consider to be unsuitable species. When I say "unsuitable", I am referred STRICTLY to the importation of that animal- should the import of that certain species be restricted/banned. Here's my post from the other threads.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>I support the banning of the following categories of animals:

Deadly- such as blue ring octopus

Obligate feeders- Fish and inverts that are known to have an extremely specific diet that is either too expensive or impossible to provide in a captive environment. Many animals such as certain butterfly fish and nudibranchs fall in to this category.

Extremely large species- Fish such as certain groupers, sharks, snapper, etc... that are unable to be properly housed by the vast majority of hobbyists.

The needs/nature of these animals are well researched and documented. There's no arguing that a blue ring's bite is deadly, etc... I do not believe in banning any species that does not not have the reasons backed up by scientific data and research. For example, someone saying "I can't keep a bubble coral alive and I know 6 other people that can't either, therefore it should be banned". I would want to see documented scientific research that yes indeedy it is practically impossible to properly provide for bubble corals in captivity.

Someone is bound to be thinking "What about banning corals that can not be harvested in a sustainable manner?". It is important to keep in mind that sustainable harvest quotas vary from ocean to ocean, country to country, and even collection area to collection area. To insure that sustainable numbers of animals are being harvested, it is necessary to have individual collection areas monitored by organizations such as Reef Check and to have the country of origin establish laws to provide for proper harvest. Back to the bubble coral example, you may be able to prove that bubble corals are endangered in country xyz, so they shouldn't be harvested there. However, they are perfectly sustainable in country abc. If the US banned the import of bubble corals because of country xyz's shortage, country abc wouldn't be able to harvest their sustainable product.

<hr></blockquote>

Ok, so now you know where I stand. Do you agree or disagree? Why? Should there be additions or deletions to my list? If so, what?

[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: MaryHM ]</p>

 

[Anonymous]

I agree with that statement, but it gets fuzzy when you try to decide which are obligate feeders sometimes. Are mandarins, anthias, and some of the sand sifting gobies "obligate feeders"? What about species that don't handle the stress of shipping and acclimation (i.e. powder blues, or Achilles Tangs)?

Glenn

 

[stilmas]

What exactly is the purpose of this post? Just so we as hobbyist understand what should and shouldn't be? That's fine, and I feel that all of us should be educated on this topic. But what in reality can this all do? IMO...Nothing...The power of greed and money will always win. And if there's a will there's a way, if someone really wants something, their going to get it one way or another, legally or illegally. I agree whole heartedly though that people should not try to keep demanding or dangerous animals NOT EVEN THE ZOOS!!!!!!!

[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: stilmas ]</p>

 

[MaryHM]

Rover: Who determines what species fall in the "death by shipping stress" category? What criteria would they base such a statement as "Powder Blue Tangs are unsuitable because they can't handle the shipping stress". I defined what I consider to be obligate feeders- critters that eat something we can't provide due to accessibility or expense. Mandarins need platters full of 'pods- is that impossible to do? Difficult, yes. But impossible, no. In fact, I spoke with an Australian guy who is breeding mandarins and has them on FROZEN food!! How cool is that!! Ban the import of mandarins though, and it's going to be nearly impossible to distinguish captive bred ones from wild caughts. And although I don't import mandarins, it's my understanding that many people with established tanks have excellent luck with them...

Stilmas- Someone is a little jaded and bitter

It just so happens that the Marine Aquarium Council is in the process of compiling such a list. This will make a difference- if the industry embraces MAC as it is doing now, it'll mean that none of the species on the unsuitable list will be allowed to be imported as MAC certified. It is also my belief that if the federal government starts considering what to ban, that they will at least view this list prior to making decisions, since MAC is the only real industry regulatory organization. But how does one go about compiling a list without input???

 

[SPC]

Stilmas, if you don't mind some of us would like to look to the future with some optimism. The "purpose of this post" for some of us is the opportunity to try and make a difference.

I think the mandarin example is a good one because of the popularity of this fish with beginning hobbiest. The person that Mary spoke to from Australia is obviously an experienced fish keeper and is the exception to the rule.
Steve

 

[naesco]

Mary do you have Tullocks the Reef Aquarium.
He has already list a bunch of categories including the obligate feeder one.
Alternatively I could post the species from the book for discussion purposes.
Rover
I agree that non obligates but almost impossible to keep fish like powder blue tang should be off the list for the time being as they a similar fish will be very contentious.

Mary could you ask as a matter of policy that posters who are connected to the industry in some manner disclose that, so that pure hobbists will know them from other hobbyists?
Stilmas please let us first see whether we can compile a list.
Thank you

 

[Anonymous]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

Who determines what species fall in the "death by shipping stress" category? What criteria would they base such a statement as "Powder Blue Tangs are unsuitable because they can't handle the shipping stress".

It seems to me that it would be apparent through record keeping at the wholesale level. (i.e purchased 500 Powder Blues last year xx DOA, xx died in warehouse, xx sold, xx amount reported DOA by retailer.) With a decent data base I don't think that would be that difficult to do. I think some of the problem must be handled at the store level as well though. Such as responsible store owners preventing mandrins from going to newly established or inadequately sized tanks.

Glenn

Glenn

 

[platylover]

I doubt that banning difficult to keep species would make that much of a difference. To the AVERAGE aquarist who doesn't research a species' requirements and relys on his/her lfs owner for advice, what is the difference between buying a cleaner wrasse or a yellow tang when both are doomed to die within a couple months?

More fish probably die from poor fishkeeping skills than from starvation (obligate feeders). And how many groupers actually reach full size?

What we need to do is educate the common aquarist. The educated aquarist will by nature not keep difficult species or large species and be able to keep "easy" fish.

 

[naesco]

Platy what we need to do is to take some of the options away.
It is a lot harder for a newbie to kill a yellow than a powder blue, achillies or clown
Than you educate him or her to keep a yellow by boards like this.
IMO to do nothing is no longer acceptable.

 

[Bill2]

Couple thoughts on my end:

To me a definition of a obligate eater is any fish/coral that we cannot easily provide a source of food to. Heck if someone lived in fiji they could provide an ornate butterflyfish with food, most people cannot though.

Another type of animal that shouldn't be imported is any animal that can be aquired in commercial numbers from a breeder.

Third type of animal shouldn't be imported is anything whoose adult size is too big for most aquariums.

I'm sure i'll think or more later
Bill

 

[naesco]

OK so here is the List from John Tullock Natural Reef Aquariums.
I believe these fish should not be imported. Most other literature agrees with Tullock

BLENNIES
Mimic
Short-bodied

SHRIMPFISH

BUTTERFLYFISH
Golden-striped
exquisite
eastern triangular
bennett's
speckled
guenthers
spotted
orange-face
french
arabian
meyer's
black-spotted
eight-stripped
ornate
blue-bloched
four-spot
rainford's
reticulated
Ovalspot
triangular
tahiti
three-striped
chevron
redfin
zanibar

CLOWN SWEETLIPS

WRASSE
tamarin
hawaiian cleaner
tube-lips
leopard
flasher
pencil
stethojulis

TILEFISH
purple
orange-spotted
red sea orange-spotted

BLUE, BLACK RIBBON EELS

REDFINNED BATFISH

ANGELFISH
boyles
multi-barred
bandit
rock beauty
regal

PARROTFISH

MOORISH IDOL

I have had a number of the above fish. None survived.

TANGS
I have kept tangs for 8 years. I read everything I can on them and peruse all the threads on them on 3 BBs. Most would agree.
IMO the following tangs should not be imported
Powder blue
Powder brown or gold rim (nigricanus
clown
achillies
I have tried all of the above with no success.

ALL LIVE ROCK (manmade should be encouraged in those countries like Figi etc.

ALL FISH THAT ARE CURRENTLY RAISED BY BREEDERS

ALL CORALS RAISED OR FRAGGED

ALL ANENOMES CURRENTLY RAISED

We will pay more for the above raised critters and they will be smaller but it will encourage the industry to invest money in raising other fish and coral.

I will add to the list later

 

[naesco]

Mary her you go
"the no-no list"
Blenniidae
Aspidontus Mimic
Exallias brevis short bodied
Plagiotremus Mimic


Centriscidae
aeoliscus shrimpfish
centriscus shrimpfish

chaetodontidae butterfly
aureofasciatus golden-striped
austriacus exquisite
baronessa eastern triangular
bennetti bennett's
citrinellus speckled
guentheri guenther's
guttatissimus spotted
larvatus orange-face
marcellae french
melapterus arabian
meyeri meyer's
nigropunctatus black-spotted
octofasciatus eight-striped
ornatissimus ornate
plebeius blue-bloched
quadrimaculatus four-spot
rainfordi rainford's
reticulatus reticulated
speculum oval spot
triangulum triangular
trichrous tahiti
tricinctus three-striped
trifascialis chevron
trifasciatus redfin
zanzibariensis zanzibar

Haemulidae
plectorhinchus chaetodonoides clown sweetlips

labridae wrasse
anampses tarmarin
phthirphagus hawaiian cleaner wrasse
labropsis tube-lip
macropharyngodon leopard
paracheilinus flasher
pseuojuloides pencil
stethojulis stethojulis

malacanthidae
hoplolatilus purpureus purple tilefish

monacanthidae
oxymonacanthus longirostris orange spotted filefish
O. halli red sea orange-spotted filefish

Muraenidae
rhinomuraena quaesita black, blue ribbon eel

platacidae
platax pinnatus red-finned batfish

Pomacanthidae angelfish
centropyge boylei boyle's
C. multifasciatus multi-barred
desmoholacanthus arcuatus bandit
holacanthus tricolor rock beauty
pygoplites diacanthus regal

scaridae parrotfish
bolbometopon spp
cetoscarus spp
scarisoma spp
scarus spp

zanclidae
zanclus cornutus Moorish Idol

 

[naesco]

Here are my comments to your comments to my post

Live Rock
There are tons and tons and tons of dead live rock which is devoid of any life as it was dynamited by the locals. I have seen it.
Encourage the locals to nurture and mine that stuff and leave the good stuff alone.
Dont we collect phoney live rock off of Florida?
Someone knows how to 'make the phoney stuff' and let nature add all of the goodies. Lets do a better job of it.

Fish
No we would not want to stop captive bred offshore fish like the ones you mentioned in Taiwan. We want to encourage it.
I offer an answer. Ban all but babies produced from a certified licenced offshore facility.
Yes a few wild ones will slip through but so do drugs.

Education
After prohibiting the import of the fish on the no-no list, by all means educate newbies on the other fish and coral that at least have a chance to live.

Goniopora
We all know it will not survive in anyones tanks.
Ban the import of it just like black coral is banned.

So what have we accomplished with having a no-no list
1. we save wildlife
2. we save the reefers money
3. we, not the government regulate the industry.
4. we avoid outright bans by bureacrats (it WILL happen if we do nothing.)
5. we encourage captive bred industries.

SOOOOOOOO who can object to this list? Who can object to the import of species we cannot keep in our tanks anyway?

 

[naesco]

Mary/Rover
to me it is more than a save the reef or be kind to animals thing. It is a save the hobby thing as IMO if we snooze we lose and their will be an outright ban.
Sorry for posting so much.

 

[JeremyR]

naesco: the "phony" rock in florida is terrestrially mined old reef rock. Dunno if they have access to that in say fiji or tonga, (if they did, they'd be able to build stuff eh?) and shipping it in isn't going to be cost effective. And they haven't been nuking their reefs there with cyanide like the indonesians.

On exallias brevis: a friend of mine just bought one of those unknowingly from a reef shop, and put it in his SPS tank. Would have been nice if the reef shop had told him it was an obligate SPS eater eh?

 

[MaryHM]

Naesco- Thank you very much for typing that list out! Now that's dedication!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Live Rock
There are tons and tons and tons of dead live rock which is devoid of any life as it was dynamited by the locals. I have seen it.
Encourage the locals to nurture and mine that stuff and leave the good stuff alone.
<hr></blockquote>

I completely agree with jeremy there. Fiji is the major exporter of wild live rock. They don't dynamite or cyanide their reefs.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Fish: Ban all but babies produced from a certified licenced offshore facility.
Yes a few wild ones will slip through but so do drugs. <hr></blockquote>

What do you consider to be a baby? You can't ship out a bunch of 1/4" fish, because they just aren't marketable and I would guess aren't strong enough to handle shipping stresses, etc... Breeding facilities now hold many fish for 1 year + to get them to a marketable, healthy size. That area is just too fuzzy, and when you're talking about bans you can't have fuzzy areas. It's an area where everything must be black and white.


<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr> Goniopora
We all know it will not survive in anyones tanks.
Ban the import of it just like black coral is banned. <hr></blockquote>

Quantify "we all know". Do my friends and colleagues that are actively propagating gonioporas "know" they will not survive in ANYONE's tanks??? Let's look back at a quote from my original post to this thread: I do not believe in banning any species that does not not have the reasons backed up by scientific data and research. For example, someone saying "I can't keep a bubble coral alive and I know 6 other people that can't either, therefore it should be banned". I would want to see documented scientific research that yes indeedy it is practically impossible to properly provide for bubble corals in captivity.

You mention Goniopora and Black coral in the same sentence. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't black coral a Carribean species and ALL carribean sp. are banned from import into the US?? I may be wrong because I'm not familiar with Carribean corals/laws cuz I don't deal with them.

 

[JeremyR]

Mary,

I'm pretty sure black coral occurs in the pacific.. I just don't think it's imported much. Most of the major hobbyist texts have black coral sections if you want to look into it.

Not all carib corals are banned, just the stony ones. You can still collect gorgs and such, and I would not be surprised if you didn't sell them.

Naesco:
You might want to talk to richk.. he has like 7 or 8 captive grown gonioporas. It can be done, it's just not understood how or why yet. I am also having luck with some complete filter feeders such as scleronepthya which I plan to propagate, and another "can't keep" coral dendronepthya has been kept by some people, although I have not yet tried it myself. Does that mean I stock gonio? Not intentionally... but i do believe it will be kept by hobbyists in a widespread and successful manner someday.

 

[Anonymous]

On what basis should these animals be banned? Is it a cruelty to animals thing or a protect the natural resources thing? Not saying I disagree with the list I'm just curious. I can't help but think about people who buy flower arrangements. They know that it's only going to last for a little while but it's okay because there is always more where they came from with very little environmental impact. If the reefs are a finite source should it really matter if the fish lives 3 weeks or 3 years if the source is then depleted? By this rationale, a butterfly fish is no different than the hardiest of damsels.

Glenn

 

[MaryHM]

Wow! Interesting read so far and no one has shot anyone yet!

Naesco:

No, I don't have Tullock's book. Thank you for posting the list. I hate to be a pest, but is there anyway you could post the scientific names? I'm not familiar with many of the common names you posted. If you don't want to type all of that out, believe me I'll understand! BTW, Tullock is the founder of AMDA, and AMDA has what they call an "Ecolist". You can access it at www.amdareef.com under the Marinelife Information link to the left.

Concerning your personal list that you posted, here's my opinions.
WILD LIVE ROCK- This can be collected in a sustainable manner, as it is a renewable resource. The Fijian Fisheries Minister is working on a fact sheet for me concerning that. That said, I am all in favor of man made rock cultured in the islands. But the materials are my concern. What do you make live rock with? Cement. Where do you get cement from in the islands? (If you're thinking Home Depot smack yourself for me

). Cement comes from ground up corals. Think about it....

FISH/CORALS/ANEMONES/ANYTHING THAT CAN BE CAPTIVE BRED
If you do that, you make it practically impossible to import these animals that are bred in other countries. For instance, Asfur and Maculosus angels are bred in Taiwan. Ban the import of breedable fish and you just put that guy out of business. And no, the government isn't going to be able to discern between captive bred and wild caught. Seriously, how would you do that with fish? With corals, maybe some kind of a universal base mounting, but with fish it's impossible.

Platylover
I couldn't agree with you more!! I mean seriously, what's the point of bringing in net caught vs. cyanide fish if the hobbyist is just going to kill them anyway??? Education is SOOOOOOOOOOOOO important. That's why places like reefs.org are so important. I think the learning curve increased 100 fold after people were able to have access to sites like this. Want to know what I had in my first reef tank in 1990? An orange sun polyp (Tubastrea sp.), A Flowerpot (Goniopora sp.) and an Anemone (it died so fast i forget what it was!). YIKES! I know beginners are still drawn to those corals, but hopefully forums such as these will steer them clear.

ROVER
When the majority of the "touchy" animals survive through to the hobbyist, it's impossible to determine the true mortality. Mandarins probably have a 70%+ survivability rate from collector to retailer. That sounds pretty good. It's a month after it's been collected that problems begin to show up, and by then it's in a hobbyist tank.

 

[MaryHM]

Rover,

I think this list is more of a "be humane to animals" thing than a "save the reefs" thing. For instance, let's say the collection of black tip sharks is completely sustainable. The reefs can handle the harvest of 1000 per year and the industry averages 500 per year. I still don't think they should be removed because they can not be properly housed.