Another Idea......

[naesco]

Thanks Fishoholic but I am still uncertain.
Is there a similar 'association structure' in the US?; a body structure that can license, regulate and sanction.
IMO it is a little early to argue which existing 'association' could do the job though.
In the PADI example does not a PADI facility have to maintain a minimum standard after they are licensed?

 

[Anonymous]

Mary

I find your statements that most advances are made by the industry rather silly. How many breeding programs do you have going on at the moment, I mean you want to tell everyone that you are an industry leader?

As for AZA programs why dont you call SeaWorld, The Scripps Institute, The Tennessee Aquarium, and ask about the breeding programs that are in place for marine fish?

No AZA does not wait for wholesalers to take down the wild populations before they start looking for a way to breed these animals.

 

[Anonymous]

Wayne

I think that PADI is a great example of self regulation, frm they attitudes expressed in this forum I do not think the peole who say they are in the Industry even want to recognize that any problems exist with importing wild populations. Therefore they could never self regulate. PADI maintains controll by the fact that they controll the air distribution. I cannot see any controll mechinism where the industry would have to acheive licences.

I think PADI is a great example, I just cannot see how their structure could apply in this situation.

 

[StirCrazy]

Fishaholic, I checked out the AZA site and didn't see anything but a self apointed body to ensure the proper care of wild caught animals.. maby you have to be a member to see more but from what I could read there was no mention about wildlife conservation programs or breading programs. if you are going to make claims such as this can you at least use a link so we can read about it ourselves.. from what I have read on that site, they are a money making organizations that wants to standerdize care in zoos (which in its self there is nothing wrong with as long as they stay to there original guidlines)
but from reading there site I also feel they would be a bad choice for something like this. I noticed that any information they have the put in pamphlets/books for sale. well this would mean if the average hobiest wanted more info they would have to purchase it which would make this hobby even more expensive.

I may have interpreted there site wrong and if so pleas point me toa link whare I can see the proper info but it seams that others have gotten the same idea from the site.

Steve

 

[SPC]

Dave, please educate me about this organizations captive breeding programs for marine animals. And please, don't try to point me towards the Tennessee aquarium etc... I am asking about this organization specifically, like I did in my original post. I have been over their site, and I see nothing about this.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Stircrazy

That is odd I clicked on the link in my post and the "coservation and science" link on AZA homepage and saw a whole page of captive breeding information along with wild population management, I do not see your problem.

Also if it were not AZA is not a major concern of mine, I do not beleive that many that are in the business of importation can even see that there is a problem that will just keep growing with this hobby getting larger and the reefs getting smaller.

I would neither put C-Quest and importers that practice the stip-mining techniques of taking and putting nothing back in the same industry. I can however see how these strip miners would like to be associated with a captive breeding facility although they have done nothing to help.

 

[naesco]

I read the results of Martin Moe's recent survey of industry, reefers and scientists.
Based on that study it appears Dave is correct Mary.
Public aquariums are doing the most research
Presently the breakdown is as follows
Commercial 17%
University 30%
Public Aquariums 33%

It warmed the cockles of my heart to read all the critters being studied for captive as opposed to wild.
The major negative cited was the cheap imports.
Maybe a hefty import duty, the proceeds of which could be funneled into the 'proposed association' we are considering for education, collection, regulation and sanctions of the whole industry.
On the other hand, industry could police itself by enthusiatically adopting our impossible to keep list and work together with the captive people on fish and coral we CAN keep in our aquaria for the betterment of all in the hobby/industry.

 

[Anonymous]

Steve

You did not as any question in your original post about AZA, just a very uneducated statement.

 

[SPC]

Steve
You did not as any question in your original post about AZA, just a very uneducated statement.

Ok, let me ask you one more time then seeing as I am so uneducated. Where does it say that this organization is captive propogating any marine animals?

Wayne, do you have a link to the Moe study?
Steve

 

[naesco]

Martin A. Moe, Jr. "Culture of Marine Ornamentals for Love, for Money and for Science" can be read at http://conference.ifas.ufl.edu/mo/moe.pdf
I will also post it on the required reading thread as it given all of us so ideas as to the direction this hobby is taking and the obstacles that stand in the way.

 

[Anonymous]

Steve

You question is trying to seperate the institutions that are doing the research away from the association. It is not possible to do so. The institutions are the people that oversee the research, so when you say do not direct me to a particlar institution what are you asking for.

AZA is a association of Zoo"s and Aquariums that hold themselves to a higher standard of raising and housing animals. It is a link for all institions to share information with the number one goal of wild conservation. Through Stud books and Species survival plans it allows people who are studing theese animals a more direct route to information and coordination of breeding.

One way to try and insure better captive breeding is that if an institution is breeeding a animal that institution can not sell any off spring to the general public before listing it first for all other AZA facilities to purchase and or trade for it.

When you made the statement that AZA is not trying to do captive breeding only, you could not have been farther from the truth. All breeding programs are set up so that NO animals need to be pulled from the wild unless it is to help strengthen the gene pool.

When you ask me not to direct you to a facility that is doing the studies, what are you asking for or are you just trying to make some point?

I thought the purpose of this post was to talk about ways of administrating a way of certififacation? If so I offered a institution that has proven reults with programs that are set up to promote not just captive breeding but captive breeding that is coordnated so the animals are geneticly viable. It is also a institution that has no vested intrest in the sale and profitablity of wild caught animals. Therefore it has no conflict of intrest. Like I said earlier whether it be AZA or not does not concern me but they do have programs that have results, these programs are started by the institutons and then helped by the association by cooridination and funds to start the research.

So as to your statment that AZA does not promote captive only, you are not correct.

[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: Fishaholic ]</p>

 

[SPC]

The AZA dosen't promote tank raised only, public aquariums are filled with wild caught animals.
Steve

Dave, I think where our disagreement is can be seen above where I use the word "only". The point I was trying to make is that every public aquarium I have seen that deals with marine animals has some fish that I don't believe can be captive bred. These fish (large sharks for example) are wild caught and will be replaced with more wild caught when they are gone.
Steve

 

[SPC]

Wayne, I have down loaded this page before but can't figure out to get it into the right text. Any help please.

Steve

 

[naesco]

You need Adobe Acrobat Reader 4.0 which you can download from the www.adobe.com site free.
For me merely clicking on the link provided in this thread opens up the survey.
I am not a computer person but if you have problems maybe someone can download it, change it to a text document and email it to you.

 

[Anonymous]

Steve

I can see the perception, but the truth is through research at these institutes many marine fish are being captive breed. To the point of large sharks, many see them as being in the institutions to be a display animal. This was the case not so many years ago but now many of these sharks can not be put in a tank to let nature take its coarse but by extracting sperm from a male and fertilizing a female some of these institutions are putting many of the sharks back into the ocean and as well have started releasing just shark eggs because thier captive breeding is ong so well. One shark that was almost hunted to extinction The Grey Nurse (not a nurse as we know them here in the states but a huge shark) in Australia ha been brought back to numbers that can allw natural breeding in the ocean to return this species from extinction.

I think we do not disagree on theimportance of conservation. I think we approach it differently, you look at the impact on the hobby and I could care less if this hobby continues. I just cannot beleive that so many corals can be so easily capivelypropagated and yet importers just keep racking them off the reefs. Fish are a little different than corals IMO as far as being able to replenish thmselves but we will exhaust their ability to do this also. I keep hearing bout how collecting corals is sustainable and to me that is just crap. This only takes into consideration that if we pull as many corals ff that can replenish themselves we are doing no harm This does not account for the fact that a reef is built on dead corals so if you keep removing them, the reef can no longer grow.

I wonder how many Importers have fertilized shark eggs to rebuild disamated shark populations?

 

[SPC]

Posted by Dave:
I think we do not disagree on theimportance of conservation. I think we approach it differently, you look at the impact on the hobby and I could care less if this hobby continues.

Dave, i think we are closer than you think on our beliefs. If it came down to the survival of the ocean or this hobby, I would be first in line to sign up to eliminate this hobby. The way I see it is that both can survive if managed correctly, its not an either or thing to me. In fact I believe that this hobby can help save the reefs if the appropriate actions are taken. There is one thing for sure, human population growth is not decreasing and in fact is increasing at a quick pace in coastal areas. As long as this trend continues, the oceans are going to need all the friends they can get.
BTW, I don't eat wild caught fish anymore due to the over harvesting problems.
Steve

 

[MaryHM]

Looking at Moe's data, I think it's important to notice that there were only 49 respondents, mostly from the US. Many coral/clam/fish farming projects are done overseas by commercial farmers. I would be interested to see whether or not they responded to this study. I wonder if we could get a list from Moe stating who participated and how the survey was distributed (how a respondent would go about gaining access to the survey).

From naesco:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr> Public aquariums are doing the most research
Presently the breakdown is as follows
Commercial 17%
University 30%
Public Aquariums 33%
<hr></blockquote>
The table containing this data clearly states that the percentages respresent the AFFILIATION of the respondents- data which does not necessarily correlate to who is doing the most research. Therefore, if the survey was more readily available to public aquariums (for instance, if it was mailed to them directly), and since scientist types are more likely to respond to research requests, I don't doubt that the majority of respondents would be public aquariums. In order for us to look at this data more objectively, we need to find out how this survey was distributed. Did the coral/clam farmers in the remote areas of the world have access to it??

Also, it's important to realize that we are talking about animals that are utilized in the aquarium trade/hobby. For instance, if 100 public aquariums are working on breeding tuna, that has no correlation to animals that are being captive bred for the aquarium trade. Basically, the real question here is "Who is doing the majority of research on the captive propagation for animals utlized in the aquarium trade- public aquarium/university organizations or industry organizations.". It would be interesting if we could determine this!

 

[naesco]

I would agree that 50 respondants is not evidence it is just some evidence as there was a discussion as to where the research was being done industry vs. other like aquariums.
What it does confirm is that research is being done by both industry and universities and aquariums and a ban on imports of the impossible to keep species (research excepted) will not shut down advances on improving husbandry of the species on the list.
I do know that Martin Moe requested input for his survey from members of pretty well all of the boards and got about 500 completed surveys in total which would be a good response IMO.

 

[Anonymous]

Mary I am sure it is importers, this must be more of that non biased, no conflict of intrest moderating.

Yea there is a lot of captive breeding of tuna research going on

 

[Anonymous]

Jeremy

I guess that would explain all the research advances that have come from these facilities. As to your claim of a AZA facility being a death mart. It might be a good idea to understand that not all Aquariums meet AZA standards and therefore are not allowed accereditation. Once a facility becomes accredited they must stay within accepted losses and show why losses occur, not like your wholesalers and LFS's just pitching fish and hoping for the best next time.

I am sure that you perform a necropsy on all the fish that die in your facility as is required by AZA. And yes I have been to my local Aquariums being the Tennessee Aquarium and SeaWorld in Orlando both AZA facilities and both world renouned for advancing both captive breeding and advancing the biology of marine sciences, in a few years the Atlanta Aquarium will open and its first priority will be to meet AZA accreditation.

How many advances have happend in the facilities of Wholesalers and LFS?

Maybe you should gain a little knowledge about AZA.