Is MAC worthy?

[Kalkbreath]

If Mac is THAT out of touch with reality (1%) Or that MAC can be so easily fooled by others? What place do they have Leading this hobby or Industry? I fail to see how MAC can ever be taken seriously again...........I hope that this 1% loss goal was never proposed by them, and is a deliberate attempt to discredit them by some one . I Hope!
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inflation defined

 

[naesco]

Every day in every way I love MAC better and better!

 

[MaryHM]

The 1% is not a figment of someone's imagination- it's printed in their current standards. Those standards can be read at www.aquariumcouncil.org

 

[Kalkbreath]

Is anyone willing to actually explain how it is possible that Our industry leaders could be so naive . Are some of us going to ignore this display of total sophomoric dreaming or Might some of us have the spine to acknowledge that the Emperor IS Naked .?
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[Anonymous]

MAC is not necessarily composed of the "industry leaders" however the "industry leaders" are not exactly what I would consider valuable assets.

MAC knows there are major issues in attaining 1%, however there is a significant faction in the wholesalers portion of the industry who not only aren't willing to try, they are too ignorant and too arrogant to care.

MAC I think is the only hope for self regulation, AMDA has proven to be relatively ineffective too many political fights and copious amounts of ego and ignorance at the moment to put forth a message that is coherrent.

Personally I think market forces will have greater impact than self regulation and I'm not in the doomsday crowd with regards to legislation at least at the moment because it seems like the message is out that regulating the MOI is not going to have any significant impact on the reefs. Though there is always that threat of feel-good legislation, that like gun control, looks good on paper to those that need to pat themselves on the back, but in reality accomplishes absolutely nothing.

 

[naesco]

McAva8tr
Your first three paragraphs are brilliant.
In respect of your last paragraph why would anyone in industry take that risk. If you lose you are out of business.

There are some people, who believe that it is none of anyones business what fish and coral they sell etcetera. But, surely to God the majority have to be concerned about the shutdown of the industry scenario.
Listen! Listen! to the people in MAC, your own industry who are taking courageous steps. They are the ones who will save our industry and our hobby. Support them fully. Give the DOA goal a chance.
And while you are at it, push through the Unsuitable Species List (USL) and we will all be better for it.
We reefers need to support MAC and the LFS/Wholesaler/Online members.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Is it too much to ask , that supporters of ideas on reef management actually explain how proposals will actually help the reefs. I for one propose that we ban the capture of Large one in a million adult breeding reef fish... I can explain how this will help the fish population as well as the health of the reefs and this industry....
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[SPC]

Posted by Kalk:
Is it too much to ask , that supporters of ideas on reef management actually explain how proposals will actually help the reefs. I for one propose that we ban the capture of Large one in a million adult breeding reef fish... I can explain how this will help the fish population as well as the health of the reefs and this industry....

-It seems that you are missing the point here Kalk. It is the perception of the general public that matters, your logic no longer applies. An industry that allows a signaficant amount of DOA's in order to satisfy a hobbies requirements is no longer acceptable. Forget about saving the reefs for this discussion, we as a hobby are the ones that have our own problems that need to be addressed.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Steve hit the nail on the head. MAC and self-regulation will have no impact on the reefs because this hobby has little impact on the reefs (when you compare it to other industries and stressors).
This isn't a scientific battle, this is a political one.

The hobby is high profile to the politicians who are trying to impress the soccer moms. The hobby is the only thing that can really be actionable by Congress as the rest is in soverign nations. The hobby also doesn't have as powerful and as organized lobby groups as the environmentalists. The hobby is just that, a hobby, nobody HAS to have a reef aquarium. Finally, we do have the dirty little secrets like cyanide collection and poor packaging, shipping and holding practices at many levels which need to be cleaned up.
Everyone talks the talk, but how many walk the walk? The most common conservation comment is, "I'd pay more for a fish if I knew it was collected, transported and held in a humane manner." I've yet to see a single post on this or other boards asking "Where can I order a net caught fish?" it's always "Who has the cheapest prices?"

What I'm hoping MAC will accomplish is to spin the hobby correctly to the politicians and soccer moms. We need to show concern and efforts towards improving collection, shipping and holding Marine Ornamentals and we need to work harder at establishing and maintaining associations with other Reef conservation groups and hopefully even establish (larger) programs where captive frags and animals are rereleased back into the wild to replenish suffering reefs around the world.

 

[naesco]

SPS
That IS the issue.
McAva8tr
You are absolutely right.
The point I was trying to make is that industry types like you and Mary have to give the MAC proposals a chance and have to let MAC know they have your support otherwise they will cave in to some watered down version.
You win points with the politicians and the public for your EFFORT instead of bad press for your refusal. Don't we need to win points?

Further MAC must enlist the support of reefers particularly authors, those who write articles and those who post on this and other boards.
The hobbyist must pressure the LFS and online stores to join MAC and get those who refuse out of the hobby.
We reefers have a lot of power that 'good' industry has not recognized or used to their advantage.
Good Industry raise your prices and offer high quality product and let the public know.
We reefers will know who to send newbies to. If you offer cheap dying and diseased fish and you are not MAC. Forget it.

Oh yes, reefs.org!
I want to see a big fucken MAC label on ALL your sponsors!

 

[Kalkbreath]

Let me see if I get this correct? So what you are saying is that MAC is purposely lying to save the hobby! Oh thats sweet! Lets LIE and hide the truth,Lets pretend that we are doing something worthwhile ... even if it means that the real issues that involve actually helping the reefs go un changed ....so that we can continue to have permission to keep our pets? Wow ! true colors shine . Is it not odd that one would not chose the truth as a weapon over lies ? This affirms my position that we need new spokespersons explaining this industry to the powers that be.......
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[flameangel1]

Tom,,

Everyone talks the talk, but how many walk the walk? The most common conservation comment is, "I'd pay more for a fish if I knew it was collected, transported and held in a humane manner." I've yet to see a single post on this or other boards asking "Where can I order a net caught fish?" it's always "Who has the cheapest prices?"
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Glad someone else said this !!!!
I really wondered why no one else ever seemed to notice this point .

Also- does anyone ever think that some of us dealers might have ethics, but simply have no patience with the stalling/committees/politics/egos, etc
of organizations like AMDA and MAC ??
Some of us were on the inside and are now on the outside for a reason .

 

[flameangel1]

AAARRRGG !!
Do not know how to use this new board yet-what did I do wrong when I posted this here??

 

[Kalkbreath]

Also what most in this hobby dont realize is that 1% is so silly. Any one thts thinks this is possible clearly has no experience in the Import part of this industy. Spend a day at any Wholesaler/ Importer in LAX and the truth will overtake you. One percent is not common in Freashwater, let alone Marine. I would venture to say that in an average fifty box shpmnt of 1500 fish there may have never been a death rate as low as 15 animals. EVER! Not with a mixed Indo Pacific Container{Clowns Bi colors Angels} Even if there Has Ever been a shipment with less then one percent death loss......the mathmatics involved when one is to factor in a "BAD" shipment with a 50% loss the Law of aveages would mean that the next fifty shipments would have to be 100% survivals to ragain the 1% average!
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[SPC]

Posted by Kalk:
Let me see if I get this correct? So what you are saying is that MAC is purposely lying to save the hobby! Oh thats sweet! Lets LIE and hide the truth,Lets pretend that we are doing something worthwhile ... even if it means that the real issues that involve actually helping the reefs go un changed

-How is MAC lying Kalk? Do you actually think that people here are so naive as to believe that MAC can save the reefs, thats not the purpose of the organization. If you are counting on one organization to "save" the reefs, you are not paying attention.


This affirms my position that we need new spokespersons explaining this industry to the powers that be.......

-What exactly would you explain about this industry kalk?
Steve

 

[naesco]

Even the Vatican has politics Flameangel.
If the inside is too hot for you, the outside is just fine as long as you are a member of MAC, strive for the 1% DOA Goal and endorse :wink: the Unsuitable Species List (USL)

SPC I think I know what you mean. I have heard nothing from the hobbyists on this topic. We should be firing off letters of support to MAC.
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[flameangel1]

Even the Vatican has politics Flameangel.
If the inside is too hot for you, the outside is just fine as long as you are a member of MAC, strive for the 1% DOA Goal and endorse the Unsuitable Species List (USL)
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If the politicians would do more than just "talk the talk"- I might support them !!
For now though- I will just continue to "walk the walk".

The USL did not go far enough, but I already support that list.

Also- I don't give a #!@& what MAC says--1% is not possible !!!
And all of us from this end KNOW that.
I do not believe it would even be possible from the collecter to the wholesaler either and sure not to the retailer.
YES, it is a good thing to strive for-but there are simply tooooo many variables between. I think 5% might have a chance and I, for one, sure hope it even gets to that !!!

 

[Anonymous]

There are way too many variables outside of the industry controls that lead to a more 1% mortality rate. Namely the airlines, the highways, trucks, the postal service, etc.....

I know I have lost plenty of fish due to late airlines and broken down trucks. The fish arrived still swimming so I had to accept them as they couldn't exactly be qualified as "DOA" but they never recovered and they died in my tanks, not due to ignorance or anything to do with the industry, but just plain bad luck I guess.

Personally I think we should assume that every fish that is collected will die. Then harvest in a sustainable manner. As long as the worst case scenario has little impact on the reef I don't see the big deal. It seems to work for the seafood industry.

 

[naesco]

Rover Flame angel
You people in the industry know whether or not 1% is impossible. Perhaps 2, 3 or 4 is. But, there needs to be a goal.
What I cannot understand is this. If industry voluntarily reduces for example, the Moorish Idol, Powder blue and clown tang, some wrasse which have, I think you will agree, extrodinary high DOA percentages imported, than the percentage from what it is today goes down considerably.
In other words by merely stopping the import of high DOA species and USL species major losses are avoided without changing anything.

So instead of the industry arguing with themselves and destroying what has already achieved, get on a plane and hammer out a reasonable percentage AND hammer out a USL (which everyone can agree on). For every percent above one add 5 now imported USL species on the list.

If MAC is rendered ineffective by the infighting on this issue you can be One hundred per cent (100%) certain the government will come in and you will have no industry.

 

[Anonymous]

What some people fail to understand is that the 1% Rate is a goal, maybe an unrealistic one but still a goal.

As for the reality of attaining that goal absolutely under the current collection and handling practices there is no friggen way 1% is gonna happen.

However with attitude changes and infrastructure changes up and down the collection line it may actually be easier than you think.

Just to start, if wholesalers would setup more natural holding facilities and stop transhipping losses could be cut dramatically.

It's no coincidence that the healthiest animals I get come from the more dynamic wholesalers who understand more about the trends of the cutting edge of the hobby and that natural conditions are the healthiest environments. It's also no coincidence that the worse shipments come from wholesalers who bought fish from known cyanide problem areas like Sri Lanka and fail to say so until after the fact and the mortality rate is 50% or greater (needless to say I don't deal with such companies more than once, or avoid altogether).

Naesco: I'm a MAC supporter, however they have problems too, before I'm going to spend money to be inspected and certified as a MAC retailer they need to get reliable sources for MAC animals, in other words I need to see more evidence of the ball rolling before I'll commit. The money is not a problem but it is a considerable amount, and considering how quickly the rosy future AMDA had at MACNA degraded into an epic pissing match I'm leery of getting on either bandwagon at the moment.

We currently feel our store will have much greater impact by educating our customers than throwing money at an alphabet organization.