Is MAC worthy?

[flameangel1]

naesco:
example of why 1% can not ever be attained-and has nothing to do with importing the PB's & MI's etc (which I do not ever stock)--

Order of 75 fish from C-Quest, all larval and tank raised/the order is delivered to my shop door in a black garbage bag inside a too big box !!
Inside ,upside down and all jumbled are broken bags/dead fish/badly beat up and stressed still alive fish (which ALL died within days).
What happened ?? Who knows ?? My UPS man who was very upset over it,
Said the packing was so beat up that he had to put all the little bags in the garbage bag just to deliver them to me.

Ok- how long do I have to get perfect 100% fish orders in to attain that 1% goal now???
This is just one little variable and there are many of them in this hobby/business.

Tom--
We currently feel our store will have much greater impact by educating our customers than throwing money at an alphabet organization.
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On this I completely agree and is what I mean by "Walking the walk".
I am DOING something for the industry--not just talking about doing something !!!!
Maybe it only is a small step- but it is doing something.
Instead of trying to change the world- change every small step we can.
I really do believe ants can move mountains if they want to !!!

 

[MaryHM]

To comment on a few things being said:

1. Someone mentioned getting MAC support from some of the big name authors- you guys should contact Fenner and Borneman and get their take on it. I already have, but I think they should speak for themselves.

2. The problem with a 1% goal is that we all know it is not currently feasible and it's setting the industry up for failure. The industry has proposed a 5 year baseline study of DOA's at all links in the chain, because currently there are no verifiable DOA statistics to work from. How can MAC just arbitrarily set a goal if the current rate is unknown?? A committee has been formed to address this issue.

3. As a wholesaler who does things the "natural" way and refuses to import drug caught fish, I still have more than 1% on the majority of species.

4. I totally agree with MickAv8r- I feel I can do much more by controlling my supply line personally and by continuing to be 100% involved in quality control at my end than I can by supporting AMDA or MAC (neither of which have proven to me that they have a true understanding of the problems, the solutions, or the industry).

5. As for the reliability of the MAC logo... although no one is currently certified, there is a company (no names) that is boasting MAC by using the MAC logo in their advertising and on their stocklists. I saw the stocklist- tons of drug caught fish, hammerhead, black tip, and nurse sharks. Therein lies the main problem. People using the MAC logo to push their same old garbage- people have touted "we only carry net caught" for years knowing it wasn't true. Saying you are doing something doesn't mean you are doing something. Like FlameAngel said- it's a "talk the talk" vs. a "walk the walk". I'd much rather walk the walk even if it means I can't qualify for a pretty sticker to put on my boxes.

 

[naesco]

Mary the industry does not have five years to study. They do not have five years period unless something is done now IMO.

General Motors must meet EPA laws on NOX emissions but not on a per car basis. That is why they have some electric cars and some gas guzzling SUVs. It is the average that counts.

If industry does not import those species of fish and coral with extremely high DOA rates, uses aqua-cultured coral whereever possible, is it not possible to push the DOA rates to 2 or 3 percent?
What am I missing here?

 

[MaryHM]

I would say that 3% is a much more viable alternative, but that it not what is proposed. 1% is proposed, and it is currently an impossibility. Call me crazy, but it seems like the priorities should be getting divers trained properly so all fish are caught with nets, not drugs, and so all of these hand caught fish are then handled properly from the collector to the exporter. Setting a DOA goal is cheap and requires no work. Actually taking the steps to lower DOA's is the hard part that no one seems interested in working on- everyone seems interested in talking about working on it, but coming up with evidence that anyone is doing anything is the hard part. There are certain fish caught with cyanide that could probably slide under the 1% DOA rule. A cyanide caught fish is then MAC certified solely based on it's DOA statistics. That seems criminal to me. Clean up the problems and the DOA will fix itself. However, cleaning up the problems takes work and money...people are much more comfortable with simple, vague solutions.

 

[naesco]

But, is the General Motors analogy correct?
But by getting rid of the high mortality product achieving 1-3% DOA goals is easy. Am I right?

 

[flameangel1]

naesco,,
Are you reading the messages on this board???

Getting rid of the high mortality fish will help- but, that is one little fraction of the problem !!!!!! Not the "easy" part.

There is NO easy part without a lot of money-time- work -patience and EDUCATION.
I might also add- if people opened their eyes-both of them- used common sense- it sure would make understanding things a bit better.

With your gung-ho attitude, why don't you get on the board of AMDA or Mac or start an organization to "fix" things ???
Hope you are in the industry though, so you know what goes on behind the scenes first.

 

[Kalkbreath]

General Motors must meet EPA laws on NOX emissions but not on a per car basis. That is why they have some electric cars and some gas guzzling SUVs. It is the average that counts.
This is a fine example: In Atlanta {number five on the list of most dirty air} The Auto {car} part of the polution is only 20 percent of the total . Trucks and busses account for another 20% agriculture10 % and the Electric company 49%...Yet its the 20 percent personal commuterpart that the Government is soley focused on? even if this 20% was totaly stopped and everyone walked to work...the clean air standards set by the feds would still not be Met? The pet fish industry has the Feds also looking to help the little fishes ..Yet I feel 1/3 of the DOAs on a overseas shipment happen during the lasthours of the 28 hours in a bag while waiting to be inspected by the US fish and wildlife ?
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Obesity Forum

 

[SPC]

Posted by Kalk:
Yet I feel 1/3 of the DOAs on a overseas shipment happen during the lasthours of the 28 hours in a bag while waiting to be inspected by the US fish and wildlife ?

-This is an intersesting point that Kalk has brought up, does anyone know (has a study been done) where the top problems are? It seems to me like there are many problems, but are there really, % wise?
Flame Angel, did you contact the supplier about your problem? I am just curious as to their reply.
Steve

 

[flameangel1]

SPC ,,
Yes, I contacted them immediately-very reputable company , but as is standard in this industry, they said " we will replace a percentage of the fish that came in dead, but will not honor any that were still alive when you received them" !!

Does not matter that the fish had NO chance of survival- replacement will only come when one reorders within two weeks ,and if we lose all the money we paid for that whole batch, where do we get the money to reorder in the two week limit that the wholesalers demand to even replace that percentage ??
Live fish guarantee is completely useless for a retailer in this hobby/business and always has been.

I do know that the mess happened in transit- but the airlines and shippers say "ship at your own risk"- so they do not take any responsibility either.
We are NOT allowed to refuse an order even if they are all dead or the wholesaler will refuse to do business with us again also.
This is standard across the industry also.

The wholesalers in Ca. do not have the shipping problems we inland people have, and as I understand the Chain of Command- it is relating to point of origon to the consumer. Unfortunately, that is many links in the chain to have problems and to fix ,before there is much chance of reaching any given percentage.

 

[Anonymous]

Naesco---

FWIW...... I have never carried or ordered anything on the USL. Yet I can tell you that I still lose fish. And you don't always know exactly why.

 

[SPC]

Posted by Flameangel:
We are NOT allowed to refuse an order even if they are all dead or the wholesaler will refuse to do business with us again also.
This is standard across the industry also.

-I know Judy, this is a real shame too. A good friend of mine owns an LFS here and I have seen this first hand, as he says "thats just the way it is". I just can't imagine that in the year 2002 we can't come up with a better system than what has been in place thus far. If only there were a way to get the LFS's to form a coalition for the purpose of putting pressure on the wholesalers, strength in numbers. There is no question in my mind that the wholesalers are aware of the fact that their customers must except an inferior product. With this scenario there is no reason for them to try and look for solutions.
Steve

 

[naesco]

Mary do you have any comments on SPC's most recent post?
Is that the 'policy' and how can it be overcome?

 

[Anonymous]

If only there were a way to get the LFS's to form a coalition for the purpose of putting pressure on the wholesalers, strength in numbers

Unfortunately it's not a big happy club where everyone wants to help each other out.

And the wholesaler can't always trust that the retailer is telling the truth that every single fish was dead or dying when it wasn't that way when they boxed it.

 

[SPC]

Posted by Glenn:
Unfortunately it's not a big happy club where everyone wants to help each other out.

-I know, its a shame its not though for this one instance. Every LFS owner I have ever talked to has spoken of the exact same situation as FlameAngel pointed out. Its looks like the majority of them would want to change this.

And the wholesaler can't always trust that the retailer is telling the truth that every single fish was dead or dying when it wasn't that way when they boxed it.

-I don't know about you, but after I have had business dealings with someone for years I am able to figure out their character. Lets look at it this way, my LFS has a 48 hour dead fish policy (free replacement). They have to trust that their customer is telling them the truth and do right by them. The LFS is the wholesalers customer, but in this case the customer can't be trusted. :? I could go on and on with examples how the customer is always right, why should this be different?
Steve
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[Anonymous]

Because in this case the physical interaction is not there. Very rarely do I meet the "wholesaler" and I doubt I ever will for those on the West Coast. So it takes much longer to develop that trust. I get completely different service from the local guy in Atlanta but their prices are a bit higher as well. Not too mention you get different service depending on your buying level. If you carry fresh and salt you obviously will buy in a little bigger quantity and they will work harder to keep your business. I could easily order $2-4000 in fish a week, and I can generally get things worked out with the local guy because he wants my business. But if your a small hobby shop and you order from five different wholesalers you have a hard time getting attention.

Glenn

 

[naesco]

Just wondering
If a bad wholesaler is shipping product that is DOA or poor quality a LFS would change wholesalers, right.
Similarly if a bad LFS is claiming warranty a bit too often, the wholesaler will dump the LFS as a customer.
And further do not all LFS (except newbies) know the good and bad wholesalers? And, do not all wholesalers know bad LFSs?
It is like any other business relationship. If the trust is not there you cannot do business. Why should this industry be any different?

 

[MaryHM]

To answer naesco's question in reponse to FlameAngel's "policy post"- We are NOT allowed to refuse an order even if they are all dead or the wholesaler will refuse to do business with us again also.

This is the standard policy in the industry and should be. You can not go to the airlines, request to look at your order, and then decide whether or not you want it. If you're going to look at it, you have to pay the airlines their freight charges first and any applicable COD charges, thereby accepting the shipment. If you decide to refuse a shipment, you must refuse the entire thing by not even looking at it. Here's a classic example. A new customer in Connecticut ordered from me a few months ago. He placed about a $1200 order. It was shipped on Monday, scheduled to arrive Tuesday. He called me Tuesday evening and said the shipment hadn't arrived yet. I told him to be patient, items were packed for 48 hours, not to worry. Believe me, he was worrying!! He received the shipment on Wednesday expecting everything to be dead. He lost 2 bubble anemones. If he had refused the shipment, the other $1160 dollars worth of order would have died needlessly at the cargo facility and I would have been out all of that money. You better believe I never would have shipped him another order. By the way, he now orders every other week and is thrilled with the animals he receives. I have had many customers threaten to refuse a shipment due to flight delays. If any of them ever did, I would never sell to them again.

This industry isn't easy to compare to others. Wholesalers are shipping a live product across state lines to people they have never even met. Wholesalers can be scam artists, but believe me, so are retailers. When I was working for the big wholesalers, there were always a few customers who would claim just enough DOA to cover their freight. After a few weeks of this, I would tell them to go buy somewhere else because I obviously couldn't provide them with a quality product. The next week they'd order again- no DOA claims. It's a game to some retailers. Wholesalers have no way of honestly knowing what is truly dead and what isn't. Bottom line- if a retailer consistently receives bad animals from a wholesaler, they should change wholesalers. There are tons of wholesalers out there- find one that can service your account properly. As far as the comment "do not all wholesalers know bad LFS's"...no, we don't. There are hundreds of LFS's out there with more coming and going everyday. It's impossible to "know" who's out to bounce checks on you or play the DOA game. It's a matter of establishing a business relationship, but that takes time.

 

[MaryHM]

Another comment on the 1% thing:

Say I order 100 green chromis from the Solomon Islands. These are the best green chromis around- healthy and hardy. Out of that 100, 1 has a leaky bag and dies, and one gets smushed into the corner of his bag and dies. Now my remaining 98 healthy, fat, eating-like-pigs green chromis are uncertified. Is that fair? Does that make sense??

Scenario #2.

I order 50 blue spotted jawfish from the Sea of Cortez. Again, these are hand caught, healthy, hardy fish. However, they are notorious jumpers. 1 jumps out on to the floor. Now my remaining 49 healthy blue spot jaws are uncertified. Does that make sense???

In both of these scenarios I have just paid a higher price for a MAC certifed animal- and in both of these scenarios I am left with 147 healthy fish that I can't sell as certified, therefore I must sell them at a lower price. It's ridiculous and stupid and doesn't come anywhere near solving any of the problems this industry is facing. Like I said earlier, putting a number on the DOA's is just an easy psuedo-fix. Actually correcting the real problems is much more difficult than assigning numbers.

 

[naesco]

Mary in both the instances and there are no doubt many like that it should not count against a MAC member. It is just like working in a liquor store. You will always drop some bottles. Just dont get caught drinking from them.

I know I got a little flame from flame angel but let me ask it again.
If part of the product that a wholesaler sells is product that has high DOA rates like a powder blue tang. The wholesaler can in order to keep to a 2-3% DOA , take extraordinary steps in handling the PBT to keep the DOA at the absolute minimum or not carry them anymore. Ditto for the LFS.

Flame angel said it was insignaficant but I would think that if everyone at a levels avoided the high DOA ones, the DOA rate would come down significantly.

As a hobbyist I am not looking for an impossible solution I am looking for an improvement to what is already happening which to me is not acceptable. How can we as concerned hobbyists help.
Don't say education. I spend too much time on the boards already.

 

[MaryHM]

Naesco,

The 1% is per species, not overall. So not importing a high mortality species would not make one bit of difference in whether or not the green chromis in the above example remained certified or not.


Sorry, but education is the best thing that you as an individual hobbyist can do. Learn what fish are commonly caught with cyanide and avoid those. Realize that the "cheap fish" in the industry are the Indonesian and Philippine drug caught ones. Shop quality, not price. Support the LFS that are doing things the right way, even if they are slightly higher in price. There are steps being taken to try to solve some of the problems- not all of the steps are in the right direction, but at least there is finally some movement. Due to previous fiascos, I will no longer try to organize the hobbyists to instigate change. Feel free to contact the organizations that are trying to create change (MAC, IMA) and ask them if there is any specific arena in which you might be of service.