Is MAC worthy?

[SPC]

Posted by FlameAngel:
Steve-Glenn,
Thank you for not flaming and for understanding .

-Judy, I think you will find that Glenn and I both believe that constructive conversation can only come from mutual respect for all involved. Not to say we haven't gotten a bit nasty in the past with some :wink: , but those are the ones who generally insist on being nasty to begin with. Also as we all know this sort of topic strikes at the very heart of our values and beliefs, and for some there wallet.

Can we agree that if we could teach the hobbyist to care as much for these saltwater animals as they do for their dogs-cats-etc, it will help the whole industry ??

-I agree 100%, IMO the hobbiest IS the reason the hobby is in the shape it is now. If the hobbiest (ultimate customer) spoke up as a group, people would listen.

If we can change their perception of "just a pretty fish"- it would improve the industry image and the reef and the animals welfare.

-No doubt, but how in the world do we do this?

I do not have a clue how we can change the shippers responsibility though.

-I do, if all their customers demanded things be done in a certain way, they would either change or get out of the way and let someone else take over. If this means higher costs then so be it. For years Germany and Japan have gotten the primo animals and the US has gotten the leftovers. Why, because they are willing to pay higher prices for healthy animals. Australia has the best procedures and holding facilities in the world for their animals, they are now considered to be the example for everyone to follow. And yet in the last several years I have not seen one Australian fish for sale in the US, Japan and Germany get them.
Steve

 

[JennM]

What a great thread!!! Sure gives seafood for thought. Here's my pennysworth...

Rover hit some points right on the head vis a vis ornamentals vs. food fishes, and none of the fish harvested by man go back to the sea either. IMO it's about managing the reefs, and collecting in a manner condusive to sustaining required populations to keep the reef healthy, and doing it in the least harmful way.

As for humane treatment...the laws of economics should dictate this. At each level of the chain of custody, *somebody* loses money if an animal dies. I don't know anybody who would purposely let things die or languish, as they would be losing money in doing so. I wouldn't be dealing with them either, if they did do this. One can usually tell by the condition of the animals that arrive, how they were tanked/treated in a wholesaler's facility. Good wholesalers don't knowingly ship sick animals.

I'd argue that MANY of the deaths in the chain occur during the shipping phase or as a direct result of mishandling, misdirection or shipping stress. Anybody I've ever dealt with at the wholesale level handled and packed their fish in the best way possible (corals & inverts too, btw) so as to make their ride as smooth as possible. Trouble happens when somebody drop-kicks the box into a truck, or the airline sends the order to Peoria instead of Atlanta...

Puppy mills...don't get me started...we all acknolwedge that with the worst parts of this hobby--the bad LFS, bad wholesalers etc., if people were treating puppies or kittens that way, the PETA gang and any other animal rights folks would be on them like stink to shut them down, but since fish aren't cuddly or furry, they command less attention. Therefore WE the fish-friendly have to do this. However, on the topic of puppy mills, would a fish farm not fall into the same genre of establishment? Just playing devil's advocate for a bit...

The fact of the matter, from collector to hobbyist, we ALL have blood on our hands. As a human being who is an omnivore, I have blood on my hands... If that bothers anybody, they should get out of the hobby or the business. The best we can do as individuals, and business people is our BEST. Hoping to achieve 1 % is unrealistic, but if I thought I could do it, I'd be the first one to sign up. Lord knows I'm trying, and things are going well so far, but it is simply not possible. I record DOA, look for patterns, treat sick animals...I do my best.

I do have one question regarding that target of 1 %...what is the end point? We know that the start point is at the collector (Oh and BTW...what percentage of non-caught fish would continue to live another year without being eaten by a predator or killed another way???? There's a can of worms...) Is the end-point the hobbyist's tank, and if so, how LONG after it arrives in the hobbyist's tank? A day? A week? 5 years? OR if the end point is the LFS, does the clock stop when the fish arrives, or is sold? I can turn over some fish in days or a few weeks, others may stay for months if nobody wants them...shop I worked at had a Marine Betta for 18 months (LOVED that fish)...

ALL fish will die sooner or later...whether it be as a prey item for another fish or animal, a food item for us or an ornamental. I think the FOCUS of conservation and/or legislation needs to be on the sustainablity of the harvest, first and foremost.

An animal making it all the way to the hobbyist has no guarantee of survival either. Read a forum here, and see how many people do not read, research or GO SLOWLY when they get started...as a retailer the best I can do is choose caring wholesalers, take the best care I can, of the animals in my custody, and try to educate my customers, but at the end of the day, if they don't want to hear my advice, they will go to the nasty little store up the road, where I heard somebody selling a customer a tank, fish, anemone etc. ALL IN ONE DAY. I had to leave before I created more of a scene than I did. My last words to that lady were, don't buy anything except a BOOK but I seriously doubt that my words were heeded. I happened to be in that store that day to buy a hydrometer (I'd stepped on mine) but curiously, they didn't have any. Not sure how the customer would measure the specific gravity in her new tank for her new fish...but I'm getting off course.

Even the collector's, importer/exporter's, wholesaler's and retailer's efforts are wasted if there is a problem with transportation, and/or if the end user has no clue what they are doing. Other links in the chain won't survive if they don't know what they are doing, but the end user is limited only by his disposable income...

Perhaps HOBBYISTS need to be certified....? (Insert tongue in cheek)

One final note...the noble and admirable statement that, "I will pay MORE for something net caught/captive-raised" is HOGWASH. I have YET to have somebody come in and request something captive reared and not gripe if the price is more (it isn't always, but generally is). Furthermore, if I offer choices to a customer, "Would you like tank-reared or wild-caught"...the next question back is always, "Which is cheapest"? NEVER is it, "which is more eco-friendly?" or even "Which has better odds of survival?"

There are a few of us willing to pay more for captive reared, etc, but FEW is the operative word. If that was all I offered, I'd be out of business in a flash, because I'd be undercut by everybody with cheaper, wild-caught stock.

OK I've spent enough time on the soap box for today...

Jenn

Jenn

 

[SPC]

Posted by Jenn:
Rover hit some points right on the head vis a vis ornamentals vs. food fishes, and none of the fish harvested by man go back to the sea either. IMO it's about managing the reefs, and collecting in a manner condusive to sustaining required populations to keep the reef healthy, and doing it in the least harmful way.

- I disagree, there is a definite difference between food and fun.

As for humane treatment...the laws of economics should dictate this. At each level of the chain of custody, *somebody* loses money if an animal dies. I don't know anybody who would purposely let things die or languish, as they would be losing money in doing so. I wouldn't be dealing with them either, if they did do this. One can usually tell by the condition of the animals that arrive, how they were tanked/treated in a wholesaler's facility. Good wholesalers don't knowingly ship sick animals.

-The problem with your scenario here Jenn is that there is a point of diminishing returns and being able to make a profit off bad products. *Somebody* looses money, but the way the wholesale business is set up its not them. If I can get away with sending my customer one bad product out of 50 (fish was dead in my holding tank) then I am going to make more profit. If I can cut one employee from my payroll and still have the same DOA's, I am going to make more profit. If I let something languish and die and can blame it on the Airlines and I am not held accountable, I make more profit.

I'd argue that MANY of the deaths in the chain occur during the shipping phase or as a direct result of mishandling, misdirection or shipping stress. Anybody I've ever dealt with at the wholesale level handled and packed their fish in the best way possible (corals & inverts too, btw) so as to make their ride as smooth as possible. Trouble happens when somebody drop-kicks the box into a truck, or the airline sends the order to Peoria instead of Atlanta...

- I am not doubting what you say here, my LFS owner however has told me many horror stories about some of the wholesalers he has visited

if people were treating puppies or kittens that way, the PETA gang and any other animal rights folks would be on them like stink to shut them down, but since fish aren't cuddly or furry, they command less attention.

-Reptiles are not cuddly and furry either and yet as Glenn stated in this thread there is a movement to ban their sale.

The fact of the matter, from collector to hobbyist, we ALL have blood on our hands. As a human being who is an omnivore, I have blood on my hands... If that bothers anybody, they should get out of the hobby or the business.

-I think we are confusing food vs fun again here.

I do have one question regarding that target of 1 %...what is the end point? We know that the start point is at the collector (Oh and BTW...what percentage of non-caught fish would continue to live another year without being eaten by a predator or killed another way???? There's a can of worms...)

-Being eaten by a predator is natural, being placed in a fish tank to die a slow death is not.

ALL fish will die sooner or later...whether it be as a prey item for another fish or animal, a food item for us or an ornamental.

-So will we, but most of us would prefer a quick death.

An animal making it all the way to the hobbyist has no guarantee of survival either. Read a forum here, and see how many people do not read, research or GO SLOWLY when they get started...as a retailer the best I can do is choose caring wholesalers, take the best care I can, of the animals in my custody, and try to educate my customers, but at the end of the day, if they don't want to hear my advice, they will go to the nasty little store up the road, where I heard somebody selling a customer a tank, fish, anemone etc. ALL IN ONE DAY. I had to leave before I created more of a scene than I did.

-I agree, as I have stated in this thread it is the hobbiest who is ultimately responsible for ALL of the problems in this industry.

Even the collector's, importer/exporter's, wholesaler's and retailer's efforts are wasted if there is a problem with transportation,

-Yes their efforts are waisted, it does not let them off the hook however.

and/or if the end user has no clue what they are doing. Other links in the chain won't survive if they don't know what they are doing, but the end user is limited only by his disposable income...

-Agreed

One final note...the noble and admirable statement that, "I will pay MORE for something net caught/captive-raised" is HOGWASH. I have YET to have somebody come in and request something captive reared and not gripe if the price is more (it isn't always, but generally is). Furthermore, if I offer choices to a customer, "Would you like tank-reared or wild-caught"...the next question back is always, "Which is cheapest"? NEVER is it, "which is more eco-friendly?" or even "Which has better odds of survival?"

-I didn't want to know the cost of the tank raised gobies I asked you to get for me, if they cost twice as much as wild caught its worth it to me. I do agree that cost is the only motivator for most however in the US.

There are a few of us willing to pay more for captive reared, etc, but FEW is the operative word. If that was all I offered, I'd be out of business in a flash, because I'd be undercut by everybody with cheaper, wild-caught stock.

-I agree 100%. Typical human trait, we must be forced to change our way of thinking.
BTW Jenn, I don't buy captive raised because I think it will save the reef, I buy them because they are better quality.
Steve

 

[MaryHM]

Mitch,

You asked how do we define difficult for the USL. I came up with a list that MAC adopted into the core standards.
1. Deadly
2. Obligate Feeder
3. Gets too large

At the MAC/Wholesaler meeting very good arguments were brought up against the obligate feeder category, and the industry did say that deadly and too large should be on the USL.

 

[Anonymous]

Steve-

I had intended to address the food vs. fun earlier and it slipped my mind. For most people, (excluding natives or indigenous peoples), seafood is a luxury and it's fun just like a saltwater aquarium. No one has to eat tuna, swordfish, shrimp, lobster, mahi mahi, or any other sea dwelling creature to survive. So we kill the animals for fun either way.[/i]

 

[JeremyR]

Wow, I don't check this board for awhile due to inactivity, and we have a mega-thread.

My answer to the DOA or dead in my tanks a week later issue for the most part has been to not buy any indo fish, and very very very few PI fish. That leaves some gaping holes in the inventory (like sixline wrasses and almost all fancy large angels) but I'm happy with the results. I'm able to survive even as a newer business on tank raised and limited wild import (mostly carib, hawaii, fiji, and tonga). Talk is cheap... the only thing that is going to change this hobby is the hobbyist.. we've had a ton of these threads where we go round and round on this issue.. but the reason nothing has ever changed in the last 20 years is because the HOBBYIST still wants the cheapest fish possible and still buys in that manner. It's called supply and demand. I would still support MAC if I thought they would actually do anything.. but I'm going to take a wait and see approach. I've never joined the AMDA for the same reason, some of the worst stores and wholesalers in the country are longtime AMDA members. A pretty sticker on the door is all that is... and from what's been shown so far, MAC is worth about as much. So in the meantime, I choose to vote with my dollar.. wholesalers that listen to me and take care of me get my dollar..

 

[SPC]

Posted by Glenn:
Steve-

I had intended to address the food vs. fun earlier and it slipped my mind. For most people, (excluding natives or indigenous peoples), seafood is a luxury and it's fun just like a saltwater aquarium. No one has to eat tuna, swordfish, shrimp, lobster, mahi mahi, or any other sea dwelling creature to survive. So we kill the animals for fun either way.[/i]

-My point was directed at the indigenous people who eat tangs and MI's (trying to compare apples to apples :wink: ). And just to reiterate what I stated earlier, most people see a big difference between killing something immediately vs a long slow death. One of the main problems this hobby has is the "slow death" is very visible to the general public, i.e. fish dying at the pet store, fish with no fins from being picked on by tank mates etc...
Steve

 

[flameangel1]

the HOBBYIST still wants the cheapest fish possible and still buys in that manner.
*********************
the cheapest fish will always come from someone who is "cutting corners".

Read the reef.org Discussion groups or any of the others and one sees the hobbyist wants the cheapest equipment-sand-animals etc.
Never mind that even with my experience, I would not even try to use half that equipment to maintain a good system !!!

The hobbyist has to change - the airlines/shippers personnel needs to clean up their act and start learning to read the word "fragile- handle with care"--the collecters need to be taught proper care and the wholesalers need to hold their fish for TWO weeks. ( a couple of days does not refresh the animals). And yes- if everyone along the chain thought of these animals as individual living creatures, it surely would help.

Right now everyone seems to treat them as dead paper dollars or disposable pretty fish !!!!

 

[StirCrazy]

the HOBBYIST still wants the cheapest fish possible and still buys in that manner.
*********************
Read the reef.org Discussion groups or any of the others and one sees the hobbyist wants the cheapest equipment-sand-animals etc.

I have been following this thread as it is very interesting but this struck me and I have to coment on it. No flame intended in any way to any retainler or otherwise but the Equipment is was over priced in this hobby for what you get. (just for the record I find fish prices are not that bad at all, and maby should be as much as 50% higher) but equipment is out of control. Take skimmers, aproximatly 50.00 in materials and they charge 800.00, or lighting is ever marked up way to much. I can build a complete PC set up for 200.00 that would cost almost 700.00 in a retail store. up here we pay 10.00 to 12.00 / lb of rock, and 60.00 for 30 lbs of sand that should be about 1.50. so I agree that everyone is justifyed in there search for cheeper equipment. As for the fish themselves heck even double the price, and make the hard to keep ones more expensive than the easy to keep ones so it is more of a investment. when I got to the store and see that cleaner wrasses and mandrens are two of the cheepest fish something is wrong...


Steve

 

[dizzy]

Kalkbreath asked: Is MAC worthy?

As a concerned retailer that is a question I have been asking myself for the past year or so. I have struggled to understand just who MAC is and what their real goals are. Is MAC a scientific organization that is dedicated to protecting the coral reefs, while allowing the continued harvest of marine organisms in a sustainable manner? Or is MAC trying to gradially shut down the marine industry by setting us up for failure with unrealistic goals?

My conclusion is that there are people from both persuasions in the MAC camp. I further conclude that the side that wants to shut down the hobby has a very strong influence as proven by the 1% DOA/DAA requirements for MAC certified fish. I would further suggest to MAC and MAC supporters to open MAC meetings to the entire industry.( Not just people who have agreed to support them) I think a great deal of the questions concerning MAC are directly related to the manner in which they have conducted themselves.

 

[MaryHM]

Posted by StirCrazy: As for the fish themselves heck even double the price, and make the hard to keep ones more expensive than the easy to keep ones so it is more of a investment. when I got to the store and see that cleaner wrasses and mandrens are two of the cheepest fish something is wrong...

First of all, cleaner wrasses and mandarins are from the Philippines, so they are already cheap fish. Second of all, why would someone raise the price on a cheap fish solely because it has a high mortality rate?? Higher price= longer time in the store= retailer absorbs the DOA. Not going to happen in this lifetime.


However, one could also say that the industry could raise the prices across the board on these fish and then fewer would be imported. Key problem here is that a lot of these fish are the "bread and butter" of the industry with relatively good profit margins. Especially mandarins. They don't die within the industry chain, so they are quite profitable. After I imported 20 of them, holding them for two weeks, and feeding them daily from our "pod farm", I still slowly watched them starve. Two ended up in my personal tank where they are hanging in there. Never again. It's an attitude, a personal decision. A choice of ethics over profit. Unfortunately that is not something that is a staple of this or any other industry. It's going to take an attitude change to create progress. All of these baloney programs and projects that have no teeth are not going to do a single thing except allow the white washing of the industry (I have a pretty ABC sticker, I'm a good dealer) while the root of the problem continues to have a strong hold.

 

[JennM]

It's a no - win situation. No matter how you slice it, somebody will come up with an argument for or against XXX. I submit that MAC's 1 % certification rule will be the death nell for this hobby, and the industry as a whole. PERIOD.

As for the food vs. fun... WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE? Either way the fish ends up out of the water and (eventually) dead. How do fish caught in trawl nets die? Gasping until somebody chops their heads off? How long is that? How about at the end of a hook...that's right, they die when somebody filets them, after they've been held in a well or on the end of a chain or rope through their gills for a while...uh huh.

How many of those who complain about humane treatment of fish, are sport fishermen/women?

Are you sure that can of Tuna you had for lunch used tuna caught with dolphin friendly nets?

I've seen this same kind of argument over the deer hunt...people begrudging somebody from hunting to fill their freezer with venison for a winter, while they've got their own side of beef in their freezer...

We can argue that til the sky falls but it won't make a difference. If you are that concerned about the humane treatment of fish, you should stop the hypocrisy and get rid of your tank(s) and crusade for the banishment of the hobby. Plain and simple. We'll never EVER be able to live up to MAC's proposed standards, and everybody has an opinion about what prices, conditions, appropriate species, etc., should be. I'm sure that many people in the chain would be willing to accept some sort of organized self-policing system, but until we can all agree on what that is, it's up to each business person and each hobbyist to do the BEST that they can do.

For the rest of us, lobbying for sutainable harvest of ornamentals, along with the food fish industry is in order if we want to preserve our hobby. YES by all means we should be policing ourselves and doing right by the animals in our care along the chain of custody. I DO. I deal with wholesalers whom I believe to do the same. If I learn that is not the case, they don't see any more of my money. It's that simple.

Somebody stated that cheaper fish means cutting corners...perhaps. I cut corners by not drawing a paycheck from my new business. That doesn't mean that I skimp on "facilities" for the animals. Don't paint everybody with one brush.

Nail the bad guys...close 'em down-- I'm all for that, but let's know what we're trying to do before we go off half-cocked and ruin it for the good ones.

SPC, you are the ONLY person not to ask the price difference between WC and CB fish. I won't debate the quality issue, this isn't the thread for that, but everybody else just wants whatever's least expensive. If MY fish are $20 and somebody else's are $15, the customer will shop for the $15 fish...on one hand I can't blame them. Everybody wants to save a dollar.

The worst of it is, I can visit any board on any day and relatively quickly, find a thread that is slamming LFS for their "OUTRAGEOUS" markups, how much better mail order is because it's cheaper, yadda yadda. I've posted lengthier diatribes than this one about why one should support their DECENT LFS etc., but at the end of the day, people spend as little as possible. In the vast majority of cases, the customer never SEES the mail order place, has no idea about living conditions, or anything about the place they are buying from. More hypocrisy...

It's a frustrating business at times, yet a very rewarding one at others.

Jenn

 

[flameangel1]

Jenn,,

Somebody stated that cheaper fish means cutting corners...perhaps. I cut corners by not drawing a paycheck from my new business.
*********
What I meant by this cutting corners is by the treatment of the animals !!

Been in business 9 years and I still dont get a paycheck unless it has been a VERY good week in sales.
Instead of the paycheck, I update something or do something to improve the business.
I never thought of that as cutting a corner.

And

If you are that concerned about the humane treatment of fish, you should stop the hypocrisy and get rid of your tank(s) and crusade for the banishment of the hobby.
**********************
I am very concerned about the humane treatment of ALL animals.
Getting rid of my tanks-parrots etc, is not the answer.
Haveing respect for living creatures (and we are living creatures also )
is the ethical and moral thing to do-imo.
And there is no reason why this can not be done within this industry .

 

[flameangel1]

Mary,,

It's an attitude, a personal decision. A choice of ethics over profit. Unfortunately that is not something that is a staple of this or any other industry. It's going to take an attitude change to create progress.

Right !!!
Couldnt have said it any better !!!!!!!!!

 

[JeremyR]

I have another practice I find detrimental that I would like to see ended... many (most larger) wholesalers have a DOA rule.. anywhere from 3% to 8%. Meaning, they are not responsible for the first 3-8% DOA... so they can send you some obviously sick specimens knowing they have this cushion. Maybe not ALL of them end up acting that way with a policy of that nature in order, but most do. Guess if the new idea got adopted, some people would have to change those policies to be mac certified.

 

[MaryHM]

Although it may seem like some companies use the DOA policy as a cushion to send you junk, it's really not the case. I've worked for the large wholesalers, and no one is telling the guy in the back "Hey, pull 3-8% iffy stuff- we have a cushion". It's mainly to deal with two things. Customers that try to get freight back by claiming DOA and things that go wrong in shipping that we have no control over. Who pays for the shipment that gets delayed 47.5 hours by the airlines? Generally the wholesaler. And here's another thought. Even if I have 50% DOA from overseas, 9 times out of 10 it's my responsibility. It's the risk you take when purchasing live animals and shipping them on the airlines. I assume the risk for importing my shipments, and retailers need to assume a certain amount of risk when receiving theirs. Cost of doing business. An aggravating, frustrating cost, but a cost none the less when dealing with livestock.

 

[SPC]

Posted by Jenn:
As for the food vs. fun... WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE? Either way the fish ends up out of the water and (eventually) dead. How do fish caught in trawl nets die? Gasping until somebody chops their heads off? How long is that? How about at the end of a hook...that's right, they die when somebody filets them, after they've been held in a well or on the end of a chain or rope through their gills for a while...uh huh.

-Jenn, I think you are missing my point here, its all about perception, that is the difference. We can debate all day about food vs fun being the same, but if the majority of the public feels there is a difference then what we think dosen't matter. The fact is that the majority see this hobby as unnecessary while seeing food fish as necessary.


We can argue that til the sky falls but it won't make a difference. If you are that concerned about the humane treatment of fish, you should stop the hypocrisy and get rid of your tank(s) and crusade for the banishment of the hobby. Plain and simple.

-This is not black and white Jenn, for example, in my 180 reef I have a pair of Perculas, a pair of Banggais and one Royal Gramma.


We'll never EVER be able to live up to MAC's proposed standards, and everybody has an opinion about what prices, conditions, appropriate species, etc., should be. I'm sure that many people in the chain would be willing to accept some sort of organized self-policing system, but until we can all agree on what that is, it's up to each business person and each hobbyist to do the BEST that they can do.

-But do we have time?

For the rest of us, lobbying for sutainable harvest of ornamentals, along with the food fish industry is in order if we want to preserve our hobby. YES by all means we should be policing ourselves and doing right by the animals in our care along the chain of custody. I DO. I deal with wholesalers whom I believe to do the same. If I learn that is not the case, they don't see any more of my money. It's that simple.

-You doing your best is admirable and I take my hat off to you. Others however see you and me in a different light, so much so in fact that they are trying to stop imports of all marine animals.


SPC, you are the ONLY person not to ask the price difference between WC and CB fish. I won't debate the quality issue, this isn't the thread for that, but everybody else just wants whatever's least expensive. If MY fish are $20 and somebody else's are $15, the customer will shop for the $15 fish...on one hand I can't blame them. Everybody wants to save a dollar.

-I can't blame them either if all things are equal.

The worst of it is, I can visit any board on any day and relatively quickly, find a thread that is slamming LFS for their "OUTRAGEOUS" markups, how much better mail order is because it's cheaper, yadda yadda. I've posted lengthier diatribes than this one about why one should support their DECENT LFS etc., but at the end of the day, people spend as little as possible. In the vast majority of cases, the customer never SEES the mail order place, has no idea about living conditions, or anything about the place they are buying from. More hypocrisy...

-I am confused here Jenn. Above you stated that you can't blame someone who "wants to save a dollar" and yet here it seems like you are.
Steve

 

[Kalkbreath]

Seems like there are two sides of the fence to be in front of., Your either for helping the Reefs as a whole.....or helping a few chosen fish which live on the reef?
_________________
BMW 600
_________________
Mercedes Benz 230

 

[flameangel1]

Customers that try to get freight back by claiming DOA
***********************************
I can't imagine anyone even thinking of such a thing !!!

For myself, I would have to claim OVER half of every shipment as DOA and I rarely ever claim anything.
Believe me- one out of every ten shipments might NOT have 5% DOA !!
And one out of every ten shipments will be all DOA's or equivelant to.

Retailors are at the mercy of both wholesalers and the airline/shippers,
and we dare not offend either by claiming losses.
This has been my experience over many years.

 

[SPC]

Posted by FlameAngel:
Retailors are at the mercy of both wholesalers and the airline/shippers,
and we dare not offend either by claiming losses.
This has been my experience over many years.

-And this is also what I have heard from EVERY LFS owner I have talked to.
Steve