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Steve collects in Kelp Forrests and Rock piles and still comes up short on orders every time he goes out

8O What? Just more proof, you've got no idea what you're talking about Kalk :wink: . The only time our divers come up short, is when the WEATHER doesn't allow it(or quotas used up, but thats not coming up short on orders as it wouldn't be on our stock list to be orderred at that time). Steve has to hold them back. Our limitations have to do more with quotas, holding space, van capacity and diversity, not divers inability to catch fish. We've got tons of sailfin blennies and red head gobies in stock. See Steve's post earlier, we've got enough that we're putting them on sale this week :wink: , and have done so many times in the past. I see tons of blennies and gobies on Solomon Island stock reports, they've plenty of coral heads to hide in there, right?

GreshamH
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mandarins can't be captured with cyanide and fire fish aren't collected using juice
 

Kalkbreath

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Two weeks is the "Magic number for intestine damage from Cyanide)How many {what percentage} of these fish are Blenies,gobies, ....the DAA percents may have improved because the MAC certified fish lists contain fewer of the fish which caused the historical Philippine DOA and DAA percents to be higher. The orders for certified fish are so low compared to the total fish being exported....That at these levels success is not to hard........ My point is that when and if we ever attempt to certify all fish there is no way there will be enough fish .................................... But the real party killer will be if after all the reworking of the collection system and efforts by MAC................we find out that some of MAC certified fish are STILL testing positive for Cyanide, its all over!.............You all say your SURE ? But just how sure?....If your wrong and I am right,the Hobbyists will lose interest.....the wholesalers will understand that they wasted all that effort....and the true net collecting countries will also become suspect..... Had MAC decided to first certify fish from another country ,instead of a proven juice fishing country{ PI} They would have forced PI to play fare or lose a hunk of the market ........As it is now PI wins whether they play fare on not?
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Kalkbreath

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GreshamH":1yhgy2lh said:
Steve collects in Kelp Forrests and Rock piles and still comes up short on orders every time he goes out

8O What? Just more proof, you've got no idea what you're talking about Kalk :wink: . The only time our divers come up short, is when the WEATHER doesn't allow it(or quotas used up, but thats not coming up short on orders as it wouldn't be on our stock list to be orderred at that time). Steve has to hold them back. Our limitations have to do more with quotas, holding space, van capacity and diversity, not divers inability to catch fish. We've got tons of sailfin blennies and red head gobies in stock. See Steve's post earlier, we've got enough that we're putting them on sale this week :wink: , and have done so many times in the past. I see tons of blennies and gobies on Solomon Island stock reports, they've plenty of coral heads to hide in there, right?

GreshamH
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mandarins can't be captured with cyanide and fire fish aren't collected using juice
............... Yes, the Solomon Islands and Bali have not only a long list of Blenies and Gobies....but they both also have a not to distant past of questionable fishing methods. I know of a collector in Manando north Sulawesi who ships to both Bali and The Solomans each week , so sometimes its not where you buy the fish its where they were collected that counts...... ? Also, Do you not collect in rock piles and Kelp forests? I dont recall too many coral reefs in the Sea of Cortez?
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clarionreef

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Well that does it for me.
Its time to 'out' Kalk...
Kalks a front man for an L.A. wholesaler and is merely being used as a conduit of mis-information. The L.A. wholesaler cannot be seen as anti-MAC because the L.A. crowd wants the P.R. points. In addition to that he's too cowardly to come out in the open and demonstrate the courage of conviction.
Kelp forests? Rock piles? Its not even good dis-information!
I just knew all this silliness wasn't coming from Marrietta Georgias own Cappachino Bay Tropical Fish and Coffee shop.
So Kalk, what do you charge for a double tall latte w/ a spritz of almond flavor?
Steve
 
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Sea of Cortez has many zones, KELP FORRESTS not being one of them KALK. We've got plenty of kelp forrests here in Cali though, maybe thats what your thinking about, huh? No coral reefs in the Sea of Cortez, please refer to "Corals of the World" by JEN Veron,volume 1, page 7. Why's that map show 2 locals that were used to photograph. Just because corals aren't exported from Mexico, DOESN'T in any way, shape or form, mean Mexico (Sea of Cortez) doesn't have coral reefs. Again, please refer to "Corals of the World", by JEN Veron, volume 1 page 7, volume 2 pages,24,26,28,30,34,35,39,41,44,144,148,150,169,178,184,186,189,192,198,200,202,210,222,233,236,240,248,409,412 and volume 3, pages 275,276,283,284,286,287,301,304,400,413,432,439 and 440. No coral in the Sea of Cortez, man your sure uninformed.


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Kalkbreath

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I know that Clarion reef is full of corals and the Mexicn Gov. is very protective of it ........Arent they? Dave can atest to just how protective! Do you collect in the reefs zone Steve? I thought they were a no no? Harrara Brothers collect in the rock zones ,so i thought you guys did to? Do you damage the mexican coral with the poking poles? does this scare up the coral skin ? or are you carefull not to ? And yes, I own CBA and have ordered from you several times this year........I need to do so again..................................
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horge

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Sandali lang, Kalk...


I am a brown Filipino, live in the Philippines, and have been actively involved in private pro-environmental initiatives since the early 80's. I myself have surreptitiously joined cyanide-fishermen on collection trips, sporadically from '86 to '94, (plus another investigative mission in 2000 that did NOT include wet time).

You should know

1) How those collectors use cyanide
2) Why they continue to collect using cyanide
3) How easy and reefsafe non-cyanide collection methods are


1-Collection via "sodyum"
Sodium cyanide (called "sodyum" for short by many collectors) is purchased in either bulk solution or (more commonly) tablet form and dissolved for loading into a handy plastic squirt bottle. At the collection site, fish are chased into ramose coral or loose rubble, and are flushed out by stunning them with generous squirts of "sodyum" into their hidey holes. The fish are then either pulled or 'fanned' out or they bolt out on their own -- only to slow down due to sudden narcosis (or death). The fish are bagged and placed in cheapo styropor ice-chests in the boat (an outrigger banca, typically) and kept shaded. On shore, the dead are discarded and the survivors rebagged, over and over until the most-severely poisoned are gone.

I can assure you that all the corals I saw directly exposed to "sodyum" were dead within five days (when I typically returned to the scene of the crime). In some cases one could even see how the solution plumed from the target site with the current, based on the fanned-out trail of dead coral. You can visit certain reefs of Pangasinan, and even the eastern waters of Batangas (outside Balayan Bay which is better policed) and still see these sort of white plume- or fan-shaped trails of death, evidence of recent illegal cyanide-fishing. It is not as prevalent today as it was from the late 80's to mid-90's. The same cannot be said for blast fishing... but I digress.


2 - The cyanide yoke
Based on my own first-hand experience, and updates from others who still monitor this trade, it is certain Chinese-Filipino wholesalers who still force cyanide-use on the collectors. You simply cannot sell your catch to them UNLESS you agree to buy cyanide from them at inflated prices.

Aside from the obvious benefit to wholesalers of reducing their purchasing cost, selling cyanide and forcing its use yields two further benefits: the fish that (at least for a time) survive cyanide exposure display more brilliant color, and are rendered free of a large number of problematic parasites.

Even if a fisherman buys cyanide but conscientiously refuses to use it, cacheing the poison God knows where, his fish will not be as attractive to the wholesaler. Fright causes many vibrant colors to temporarily fade, yes? Recent exposure to cyanide partially or wholly removes this natural "flaw" for days, and the wholesaler loves having merchandise that looks good even under stress. A faded, non-cyanide caught fish is thus detected immediately and is rejected, and the collector scolded for wasting the wholesaler's time and cyanide.

Mayhaps the retailer also likes the brightly-colored goods, and perhaps the increased sales due to mortalities in the hobbyist's tanks (always the newbie hobyists fault, that!).

Certainly there are levels of exposure, and at some point of dilution cyanide becomes merely a soporific with repairable side effects on the fish. In all my observations, however, the exposures are severe enough to spell permanent physical damage, particularly to the liver.


3)Non-cyanide collection
Barrier nets are great for collecting small tangs ---especially sand-hole dwellers like P. hepatus babies. Many other fish when young are just incredibly stupid and easy to herd into them, and this is in broad daylight. they are technically easier to capture when asleep ---but many shallows in the Philippines are unsafe at night. You do not want to anger the diwatas of the seashore, even with all the appropriate prayer to your patron saint (to intercede for you to Panginoong HesuKristo, and ultimately to Dios Ama ng Langit). Sharks and stonefish are another, more earthly concern.

Even fast-fleeing fish like Dascyllus, which hide and wedge into branching coral are easily captured by simply submerging dead acropora heads collected at the shore (storm debris) near the target school, and lifting them out of the water when the Dascyllus have fled into them ---the fish will not fall out even out of water. You then transfer the whole dead coralhead to your collection bucket.

Nobody I've known 'crowbars' coral to get to a fish, except maybe the large-wrasse and grouper hunters ---and I'm talking about food-fish collectors way out offshore (very few big foodfish left near land). They are IMO responsible for the bulk (maybe 85+%) of cyanide fishing in this country, but again I digress.




While a newb collector might be willing to ignore the damage that his cyanide-use wreaks on the reef, after a few seasons a collector CANNOT escape the realization that he is killing his family's source of food. That bitterness is the foothold for change.

The long-running efforts of OVI and our local Haribon are appreciated insofar as educating and properly-equipping collectors is concerned. (Past bad blood aside, I have to give even IMA my gratitude for its efforts.)

Our local group of layabouts has been focused on the business end ---engaging the children of wholesalers and exporters, and some of them have already take over from their parents, else consigned the business to oblivion. Nevetheless, about Balayan Bay, Batangas; In Morong, Bataan; the vast Bicol region and the Pacific-hugging province of Quezon, (and soon in southern Cebu) we train some families of collectors to try to replenish lost coral cover by anchoring healthy, assorted large frags (from the same locale) DIRECTLY to where the scars of old cyanide-collection occur. We also supply them with farming tools and vegetable seeds, and link them up with handicrafts exporters for alternative lines of income.

FWIW I am personally familiar with many a coral bommie or formation in the above mentioned locales, particularly in Balayan Bay. On the whole, the health of those NEARSHORE reefs has (to my impression) improved noticeably from the desolation of the very early 90's. That is, if you place greater value on the density and diversity living components of a reef than on the physical superstructure they produce. If blast fishing were eliminated, along with this persistent, residual cyanide use.... what a marine paradise would be restored!

I might have gone into more detail, but this post is overlong already for this medium. I do not like describing the situation here (ostensibly as one of our group) on this forum because your education is not our mission.

However, I (personally) was moved by your apparent low regard for both the efforts of outsiders helping Filipinos, and for the ability of the Filipino to redeem her/himself once given a decent break.


horge

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dizzy

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horge,
Excellent post. Please continue to contribute to the discussions, as we really are interested in hearing directly from the source.
 
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dizzy":3crfcw4r said:
horge,
Excellent post. Please continue to contribute to the discussions, as we really are interested in hearing directly from the source.


ditto!!!!

much appreciated, horge :D :D :D
 

horge

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dizzy":268155b8 said:
horge,
Please continue to contribute to the discussions, as we really are interested in hearing directly from the source.



No offense, but again, that is not our/my mission.
I was only moved by personal hurt at some of kalkbreath's stances.

My participation* on the boards is tolerated by our group on the grounds that sharing information with foreign hobbyists on proper husbandry alleviates hobbyist-side mortalities, and thus reduces the crushing demand for new imports, ...which in turn influences the obscene over- and mis-collection of Philippine marine ornamentals.

But I WILL say that cyanide testing alone is NOT the magic bullet. All the collector/cooperative has to do is hold the catch in open circuit for several days, allowing the fish to excrete the evidence, then lie about it when presenting the "freshly-caught" fish and you will detect NOTHING in your assays. You cannot police all the collectors, and if you are going to restrict collection permits to a few, that really would smack of the US taking away the right to livelihood of Filipinos on their own native soil!

There is no quick imposed fix for this problem, yet I will challenge anyone who suggests there has been no progress to show for our efforts to solve it. It is such a feedbacking, dynamic phenomenon, that it has to be pressured from all angles, long-term, until it subsides and generates no more self-perpetuating feedback.

Carry on discussing!


horge



*"scandalously self-promoting" was the term used at the 2000 meeting, I believe, ha ha.
 

Kalkbreath

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thank you for your input, this forum needs true reporting from the source. Perhaps you could settle a few un answered questions?.......How many of the fishermen are newbies? And is it not those new fisherman ,which over stun their fish? To have all your catch die before ever selling it....seems LIKE A NEWBIE MISTAKE. Is it not in fact the art of finding the correct ballance or amount of "juice" in which to squirt......an amount that only slightly stunns the fish?
...which most fisherman attempt to carry out? If there are 4,000 collectors{as many insist} This would mean that each collector, only ships out LESS then one forth {1/4} of a box a week? Because LAX USA only recieves less then 2000 boxes a week. This 1/4 of a box would mean about how much in PI money? Thanks again for your input.
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Kalk, hate to say it, but there are other importing countries besides the US. LAX is also, not the only entry point, just the most convienent. I know of at least one major east coast wholesaler who gets PI direct(not a good idea for some one that far away), not thru LAX. Our PI doesn't see LAX, granted we don't import 100 boxes a go, but we're moving, so our imports will increase with size and consistancy. Here in SF, we've got 3 major wholesalers (not ship out, but delivering to REALLY far away citys within CA), all get their PI via SFO. The Canadians also get it direct, as does the Germans, Brits, etc. BTW, our last shipment from Marivi, landed SFO, had 6 DOA, 7 DAA, outa 1,656 fish(small one). Only 2 dead green chromis outa 200 (.01% combined DOA/DAA). Zero doa/daa on most species brought in. But what does any of this have to do with "the effects of cyanide on corals", which, it appears, Kalk believes doesn't have an effect on, or very little. From what I can gather from your post Kalk, you think a diver can use cyanide safelly, if he's got experience. Its the "newbies" destroying the reef, wrong, any cyanide pumped into the reef is bad. OK, looks like Kalk is saying, only let the expirienced ones use juice, the others have to use nets cuz they can't get the dose of POISEN right.(according to Kalk, nets are a lesser form of fish catching, NOT TRUE, just his humble opinion). Nets catch more fish, causes zero impact on micro life/baby fish(unless your trying to catch baby fish), costs the diver FAR less than dope, doesn't kill corals(instant)/humans(slowly) and newbies don't need to learn a correct dose of poisen, just how to use nets. A newbie net diver won't kill fish with an incorrect dose of nets!!! Nor will he contribute to the destruction of the worlds reefs.
 

naesco

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Gresham with such low DOA and DAA, I cant understand why any prudent businessperson would consider buying Phillippines fish other than net caught.
 
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Me neither. We do the same with our Mexican, falling under .1% with all most all shipments. It may climb to closer to 1% is Mexico is having a heat wave, but that still is real good. Dead fish are very exspensive, I can't understand what LA is thinking(or not). Economy of scale I guess, bring in a ton, you can afford to loose a few pounds with little reprocusions.
 

Kalkbreath

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GreshamH":22p9fpe8 said:
Kalk, hate to say it, but there are other importing countries besides the US. LAX is also, not the only entry point, just the most convienent. I know of at least one major east coast wholesaler who gets PI direct(not a good idea for some one that far away), not thru LAX. Our PI doesn't see LAX, granted we don't import 100 boxes a go, but we're moving, so our imports will increase with size and consistancy. Here in SF, we've got 3 major wholesalers (not ship out, but delivering to REALLY far away citys within CA), all get their PI via SFO. The Canadians also get it direct, as does the Germans, Brits, etc. BTW, our last shipment from Marivi, landed SFO, had 6 DOA, 7 DAA, outa 1,656 fish(small one). Only 2 dead green chromis outa 200 (.01% combined DOA/DAA). Zero doa/daa on most species brought in. But what does any of this have to do with "the effects of cyanide on corals", which, it appears, Kalk believes doesn't have an effect on, or very little. From what I can gather from your post Kalk, you think a diver can use cyanide safelly, if he's got experience. Its the "newbies" destroying the reef, wrong, any cyanide pumped into the reef is bad. OK, looks like Kalk is saying, only let the expirienced ones use juice, the others have to use nets cuz they can't get the dose of POISEN right.(according to Kalk, nets are a lesser form of fish catching, NOT TRUE, just his humble opinion). Nets catch more fish, causes zero impact on micro life/baby fish(unless your trying to catch baby fish), costs the diver FAR less than dope, doesn't kill corals(instant)/humans(slowly) and newbies don't need to learn a correct dose of poisen, just how to use nets. A newbie net diver won't kill fish with an incorrect dose of nets!!! Nor will he contribute to the destruction of the worlds reefs.
Since you failed to answer any of my questions, lets let Jorge tell us the truth, If 85 % of the reef damage is from seafood fisherman.then this hobby will have little effect one way or another........I dont support cyanide use .but the truth is the truth , lets find out what is really happening out on the reef?
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mkirda

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Kalkbreath":k525123l said:
Since you failed to answer any of my questions, lets let Jorge tell us the truth, If 85 % of the reef damage is from seafood fisherman.then this hobby will have little effect one way or another........I dont support cyanide use .but the truth is the truth , lets find out what is really happening out on the reef?

Kalk,

Your circular logic is showing, yet again.

You don't support cyanide use, yet you want to say that, since 85% of it is being used for food fish, that eliminating its use for the aquarium trade will have no effect? Um, yes it will have an effect of stopping coral death and further reef degradation. Anything we can do to stop even a portion of its use will have an effect.

You know, I have offered before numerous times to send you papers that would show you that cyanide use *at all* is a bad thing. You failed to respond. At this point I have to conclude that you are therefore a troll- You are not interested in this issue other than to raise the blood pressure of people who actually care about it.

Best choice people: Ignore him.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

DBM

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Mike,

I think Kalk does what he does because it gets a response. Most people wouldn't speak up or would just sit back and read vs. respond. I for one appreciate that fact he's willing to be the one who is willing to stir the pot. Alot of people would not have spoken up and told us what's really going on. For example Horge.

Kalk is probably a person interested in reform and is using this board to encourage people to speak up.

Doug
 

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