Cyanide testing at the importer level

[flameangel1]

What that means is that when a box arrives at your door saying "MAC certified Cyanide free from Cebu PI" you can be damn sure that there is where it came from and that is wasn't caught using cyanide.

Would I believe it ??
NO !!! Been in this hobby/business tooo long and know better than to believe it. The evidence points in another direction here.

I know this system works because my company is ISO9001 certified. All of our contractors are ISO900X certified...and all their subcontractors and suppliers are... You get the picture.

Is this the saltwater industry that you are in??
I do know that contracters can be certified and so can electricians.

And another point here, even if it was true that no cyanide was used, HOW were these fish handled after being caught ??
From my standpoint, that is extremely important also.
I DO wish MAC or any other org could control this whole chain of command and how the fish were actually handled along that chain of command. It sure would make my life easier, to say the least !!

 

[MaryHM]

Wow. Where to start. James, you know I like you, but I think you're way off here.

MAC's job goes much further than providing the hobby with healthy fish. Why do you think the conservationalist NGO's (WWF, Nature Conservancy, etc...) are so involved?? They want to see a SUSTAINABLE industry- an end to cyanide use.

Aren't there already organizations in place that train net collectors?

Yeah, and they royally SUCK at it or the problem would have been over 20 years ago. How can MAC certify net caught fish if divers aren't trained?? And how can divers be trained without someone doing it??? And better yet, if the divers were trained why the heck would we even need MAC?? I think MAC realized that the IMA is not doing what it has said it's been doing for the past how ever many long years, and that is why they are looking closer at getting divers trained. IMA's former "net training guy", Ferdinand Cruz, is now on the MAC payroll. Steve can speak to all of that better than I because he knows the people involved much better than I do. Bottom line is that without trained divers there can be no certified fish.

Of course MAC knows how fish are collected, where they are collected, and the problems with collection, gathering, and exporting.

If they knew the problems so well, then why did they ever guarantee the government that they could get 1% DOA without even running a single trial??? Why do so many in the industry (even the reformers) know that MAC is setting itself up for failure?? Not just people who make their money off of handling animals- people like Eric B and Robert Fenner have serious doubts and one would think they'd be the first in line behind something like this. Oh wait, Eric B WAS practically first in line to support them, as was I, and quickly learned that what MAC does and what MAC says are 2 different things.

What that means is that when a box arrives at your door saying "MAC certified Cyanide free from Cebu PI" you can be damn sure that there is where it came from and that is wasn't caught using cyanide.

Really? Well then sign me up!! Amazing that in a country that has a MANDATORY LAW against cyanide use with a (correct me if I'm wrong, Steve) 2 year jail sentence if you're caught with it, that a VOLUNTARY organization is going to waltz in, have a certifier come in once every year or two, and that is going to GUARANTEE that the divers aren't going to pull their squirt bottles out from under the boat seat as soon as the certifiers are gone. Well all hail MAC because the problem is solved! Let's get MAC to working on that illegal alien problem john was talking about earlier!

I know this system works because my company is ISO9001 certified. All of our contractors are ISO900X certified...and all their subcontractors and suppliers are... You get the picture.

You all say "Gosh, but MAC isn't doing anything," but what you don't see is that they ARE doing something - you just might not understand it.

Maybe you understand ISO9001 James and I'll admit I don't understand all of that. What I do know is the industry and how it works on practically every level- you just might not understand it.

 

[MaryHM]

Steve,

I think people tire of hearing us importers and retailers gripe. Do you have any PI contacts who would be willing to share their side of the story?? I think it would do some people good to hear the situation straight from the horses mouth. (We all know you're a PI horse Steve, but you're white so it doesn't count!! ) We could fix it so they could post anonymously if they preferred.

 

[john f]

You wholesalers keep having this discussion then.

You CHOOSE to cut out the end users who want to do the right thing.|
Heck, even insult us (I don't like to deal with hobbyists) and say we are ignorant.

So now I am going to shout:

THERE ARE TONS OF HOBBYISTS LIKE ME WHO WOULD LOVE TO BUY YOUR FREAKING NET CAUGHT FISH, BUT YOU AN'T CREATIVELY COME UP WITH AN IDEA TO SELL THEM TO US.

Go into our LFS and DEMAND net caught? :roll: :roll: :wink:
The a##hole LFS owners will just shuck me out the door so the can sell some cyanide caught fish to the next 10 suckers.

YOU have put us hobbyists at the mercy of LFS owners.
And why Mary thinks they are easier to deal with than hobbyists I'll never know. Any hobbyists who takes the time to find Marys operation in California? and have them mail order a much more expensive fish across the country, is a much more knowledgeable and concerned hobbyist than your average Joe customer.
On the other hand MOST LFS owners could care less if the fish they sell you lives more than a week. Just as long as the money is in their pocket...........also keeps you coming back for more.

Why couldn't Mary or Steve set up a second mail order business that sold directly to hobbyists at higher prices? And they could even hire someone else to deal with the "unwashed" :wink:


John

 

[flameangel1]

john f--

Go into our LFS and DEMAND net caught?
The a##hole LFS owners will just shuck me out the door so the can sell some cyanide caught fish to the next 10 suckers.

Why do you hobbyists persist in referring to ALL LFS as doing this crap ??
There are MANY of us who are Good LFS and do NOT do that.
You just have to look around and maybe drive a bit farther.
It is worth it-honest

 

[Anonymous]

John, If you wanted to do something about it why dont you go into your LFS and ask them to carry corals and fish from Places like Mary and Steve. I have personally seen and purchased animals from both of them and they are definately worth the extra money. Only problem is most of the customers couldnt care less and went down the street to buy the PI and indonesian cyanide caught fish for 15%-20% less. For a vast majority of the customers in this area you could put a diseased and sickly cyanide caught fish next to the same species of fish that is thriving and 9/10 the people would buy the cheaper of the two.

 

[MaryHM]

John,

I am a WHOLESALER. Definition of wholesale= The sale of goods in large quantities, as for resale by a retailer. I make more money with less work by selling large volumes to consistent customers. I'm not interested in selling tiny volumes to inconsistent customers. I was in retail for a very long time and do not enjoy dealing with the public anymore on the sales front. That's not an insult to hobbyists, it's a personal preference. I prefer to establish business relationships with retailers and sell to them weekly rather than sell to a bunch of different hobbyists who buy something every few months until their tank is full. That is my personal business choice. I don't think all hobbyists are ignorant, but I think we can all admit that the vast majority are. I am sorry that you are upset with the way I conduct my business, but retail pet shop owners are the people who have built my business to the point where it is profitable. Why would I turn my back on them and risk changing my entire business plan- a plan that might fail? I wouldn't and I'm not. It's hard enough to make money doing things the right way in this industry and I'm not going to rock the proverbial boat on a whim that "maybe" 10% of reef central, reefs.org people would order from me. If you tell me where you live I'll let you know if I deal with a retailer in that area. Please don't take it personally. This is my business and how I choose to run it. Free enterprise and all. Also realize that due to my pricing structure and limited variety the retail shops that purchase from me consistently are committed to doing the right thing. LFS who are looking for the cheapest PI/INDO fish are not buying from me. I sell to the cream of the crop, so the arguement about how horrible LFS are really doesn't pertain to my business.

 

[Anonymous]

Mary and Steve (cortez marine),

I am sorry circumstance has made you each into pessimists.

I hardly think you two need to go looking for more people to support your pessimistic attitudes. So there is no need to go looking for anonomous people to give poison testimonials, unless they have something truely new to add to the discussion.

I agree that there just isn't a high enough density of support in any one geographical location to support a net caught only LFS right now. That is why I recommended an online venture.

It is a real shame that you have a good supply line of net caught fish that end up getting co-mingled at the retail level. Allowing the co-mingling to occur is part of the problem, not part of the cure. We all lose.

Sincerely,
-Lee

 

[MaryHM]

I disagree. This is a thread about cyanide testing and the issue seems to pop up in every discussion we have. I think it would add a lot to the conversation for people who are on the front lines in PI and Indo to post their side of the story. No one ever hears from them, but they are the ones everyone is griping about.

 

[Anonymous]

Mary,

In reply to my inquery:
If a good supply chain currently exists please P.M. me with their name and email address.

You said:

Right now everyone I know other than Steve and I mix livestock from a variety of sources, making it impossible to figure out what came from where. Not meaning to sound arrogant, but Steve and I are the only stateside wholesalers I know of that have a "good supply chain". Steve is primarily Mexico with some Atlantic stuff. I carry a more varied line. We both sell to retailers however that mix our animals in with animals from other countries, so even if I gave you the names of my customers I couldn't guarantee you a clean supply.

My conclusion:
I cannot "walk the walk" because there is no way for the well-meaning hobbyist to do so.

I'll order captive raised/captive reared fish instead of wild caught. Which is more ethically sound, anyway.


-Lee

 

[MaryHM]

I do not know of any supplier that sells to hobbyists that I could guarantee without a doubt is 100% clean. There are probably some out there, but if I can't personally guarantee it it then I can't recommend it.

 

[clarionreef]

People,
Don't let an examination of the trades most ctitical issues become a plea for direct sales to a tiny minority...essentially killing the chance to accomplish the prime directive of industry wide reform.
We are in quite a struggle here to affect change in the sequence of supply that the entire industry and hobby rest upon. Direct sales to hobbyist is not a sound tactic at this point in the conflict...thats what retailers are for.If you don't like yours, find a better one. They are not all the same.

James...MAC also thought that there was plenty of training already accomplished for years and that the time to certify had come. They were fooled, lied to or whats a more polite term?...mislead.
Their program is based upon a faulty assumption. Segrest Farms, who imports more boxes of fish than anyone called upon MAC to "break mission" and insure that enough divers were already trained before holding them to best practice standards gleaned from interviews with the elite in Hawaii and Australia.
When MAC would not accept this and opted to just forge ahead, they lost the respect of many of us who had dearly hoped that they were for real.
I've done nothing here if not explained the folly of "putting the cart before the horse" in this reform thing.
If anyone believes that scuba divers should be certified before they are trained...raise your hands. Perhaps if we knew nothing of safe scuba diving we might say... why not?
If anyone believes that any ol club will do in the game of golf...raise your hands. People who know golf find it absurd if a non player would tell him that the difference between drivers and putters just can't be that important.
And anyone that believes that you can certify fish collectors to ultimate standards in the Philippines without training or netting materials...well to me, a fish collector for real...thats just too
ridiculous a notion to be taken seriously. So silly in fact that it just can't be an innocent mistake. Therein lies the problem.
Fish labeled "certified cyanide caught" as certified by MAC? Thats nort going to happen. They will certify all who pay and apply for it or nothing. As in the IMA tests for cyanide...positive readings never saw the light of day.
Mary,
The few...I mean few exporters in the Philippines who are depending upon the MAC label to set them apart and help their businesses find customers do not want to talk about anything in public. When the campaign begins [soon] to glorify them they will get some respect and free P.R. so be it. They want good news and nothing but. To me, in private, I get the low down but they don't want it to be on the net.

Pessimists??? I for one am an irrational , Ghandi quoting, flaming idealist caught in the trap of trying to support reform in 45 year old industry led by the wrong ethic and the wrong leadership... While all the while knowing what really works!...Do you think a pessimist can sustain energy for that?
Oh please....
Sincerely, Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Those who want all or nothing typically get nothing.

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry about my last comment. It was not constructive. I apologize. It was born of frustration.

What can we do? Right here, right now.

Start a hobbyist letter writing campaign? If a ton of hobbyists started writing letters to MAC stating their concerns maybe we could initiate something.

Mary and Steve,
Would you be willing to draft the letter and post it to the public BB forums? What issues should MAC specifically address?

If I agree with it I will print it off and encourage members of the local club I belong to discuss its merits and send it to MAC.

-Lee

 

[MaryHM]

SciGuy,

I know your heart is in the right place cuz I've been there too. If MAC won't listen to the importers (we had a big meeting about all of this back in March), then why would they listen to some hobbyists?? If 3 of the major LA importers decide MAC is a farce and don't support them, MAC will come to a screeching halt. You think they'd listen to them...

 

[clarionreef]

Dear Lee,
No, no don't apologize for being right.
The all or nothing analogy was interesting. Compromise on the cyanide fish thing would mean that I could mix in cyanide fish to improve sales...refusing to do that leaves me with nothing out of the Pfhilippine and Indo. The netcaught only micro exporters may well be kosher with their limited variety. These will be purchased by big wholesalers to mix with their conventional supplies....put em all in a blender and walla...certified fish! I won't do this. So it leaves me with an unattractive variety and ultimately nothing.
I'm already contemplating a career change as a result and will probably go to West Africa in two weeks to survey reefs for some fishery departments there.
I invested in all or nothing netcaught fish and it doesn't seem to be to popular except to talk about it.
I feel like the Maytag repair man. Everyone wants to know that netcaught dealers are around...but they need some blue tangs this week.
I have a household to care for and cannot gamble their welfare on the ill defined and vaccillating rumor of ethics in this industry.
This must be the year of a significant 'sea change' and I'm very much counting on some things already in motion.
E-MAIL campaign? Great. A thousand or so to the Mac administration is a good start!
Enthusiasm left? The Chief of the Philippine Bureau of Fisheries, Malcolm Sarmiento...send him a ton as well. We did this in FAMA back in the 80's and the chief back then told us to call of the dogs it was so successful.
It helped to sprark the netcaught movement and when the movement started to get successful it got hijacked by more professional reformers.
The rest is a decade of non events....
Steve

 

[SPC]

Posted by SciGuy2:

Mary and Steve,
Would you be willing to draft the letter and post it to the public BB forums? What issues should MAC specifically address?

-Mary, Steve and Judy have already spelled out for the hobbyist in detail on this forum what they see as the issues that need to be addressed by MAC. Why would the hobbiest need them to draft a letter for us? Do you see where I am coming from? They have been doing for years what should have been the hobbyists responsibility. If the hobbiest wanted net caught fish why hasn't he already demanded them? We the hobbyist hold all the power, without us there is no industry.
Steve

 

[MaryHM]

SPC, I could hug you. Thank you for pointing out the obvious.

 

[flameangel1]

Steve (SPC),

If the hobbiest wanted net caught fish why hasn't he already demanded them? We the hobbyist hold all the power, without us there is no industry.

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT !!!!!
Thats it in a nutshell.
Stop thinking "CHEAP" and start thinking quality !!!
Start asking for net caught-tank raised-larval raised--
settle for less variety for now , yes, but the hobbyist has the power to change the industry. You are the end consumer and the only reason the exporters, importers,wholesalers and retailers are in business.

 

[Anonymous]

Everyone,

Thank you for the interesting points of view. I will consider them all, as best as I can.

I have to agree with JohnF and JamesW about supporting MAC. Anything is preferable to simply waiting for government intervention, in my opinion. Besides, if MAC fails as spectacularly as you folks are predicting we'll get government intervention eventually anyway. I'm just sickened at the thought of doing nothing until then.

I pursued an education in Geology and a career in environmental remediation and pollution prevention because I do care and I do want to make a difference. I put my hunting guns and fishing poles away a long time ago and replaced them with a camera, sketchbooks, and a hand lens. The first book I purchased for my newborn son was Dr. Suess' The Lorax. Maybe someday I will be able to say that I have done a tiny, little bit for this planet. I just wish I could do a bit for the ocean ecosystems that I so admire.

Perhaps this CORL (?) group has a good alternative. I hope so.

Until then I guess I'll stick with captive raised fish ordered MO. I haven't found a LFS in my market that I'd want to handle captive raised livestock. I wouldn't want them to touch the insides of their holding tanks.

Sincerely,
-Lee