Cyanide testing at the importer level

[Anonymous]

Here's my dumb idea for the year...

Why not try to detect cyanide in imported fish at the import level?

Basically if the U.S. importer of livestock removed the DOA's from a shipment, pureed it a blender, and ran a bench test for cyanide wouldn't that establish the existance of poisoned livestock from the company that sent the shipment? If cyanide was found in the shipment MAC could be notified and MAC certification could be withheld until the issue was resolved.

The responsibility then would rest on the company that supplied the livestock. They would have to resolve the issue from their end. They could in turn test their DOA's and put the finger on their suppliers...

Cyanide bench test kits aren't very expensive and are accurate to 0.01 ppm, I believe. No fish would be needlessly killed. Tests could be run on the feces of otherwise healthly looking fish also.

Just a crazy idea.
-Lee Morey

 

[Anonymous]

An issue: would residual cyanide in the fish's tissues would be of measurable levels via a bench test?

Were's Wade? LOL

 

[MaryHM]

Read the first page of the "Era of MAC Certification" thread. It addresses the issue of stateside cyanide tests.

One flaw in your plan. Importers already know there's a cyanide problem and they are fully aware when they are bringing in cyanide caught fish. You don't allow a thief to be his own judge and jury... Fish & Wildlife needs to implement a test. It's the only honest way to do it.

 

[Anonymous]

Alright. Then implement it at the retail store level. The retailer can then contact MAC about the importer. If that won't work do it at the hobbyist level and they can contact MAC about the retailers.

Basically if the problem is so pervasive let's do some testing and keep MAC from certifing anybody. Then maybe MAC will look into something else to police the issue.

 

[MaryHM]

Alright. Then implement it at the retail store level.

No, no, no! That makes it even worse and more complicated. Please go and read the first page of the "Era" thread. Fish & Wildlife is the only agency that should be allowed to implement this test.

 

[Anonymous]

Mary,

I read the thread.

I still don't see why bench testing of already dead fish couldn't establish which suppliers are selling poisoned animals and prohibit MAC certification for them. Force the issue if you will.

It would be better to have at least one supply chain that shows due dilligence than none. I will buy from that supply chain's retail outlet.

Maybe I'll test the fish that I have die and contact MAC on my own if everyone else wants to turn a blind eye.

-Lee

 

[MaryHM]

Well, first of all there is no current test for cyanide in fish that could be used stateside. The cyanide is flushed out of their systems fairly quickly. There is research currently being done to try to establish a test that would indicate a cyanide by-product that is held in the tissues longer.

Bottom line is that we have to quit looking for band-aids and look for long term, viable solutions. In my opinion, intervention by the federal government is the only thing that fits the bill.

 

[MaryHM]

One more point:

You can't "prohibit MAC Certification" for an exporter, importer, retailer, etc.. based on a test conducted by anyone other than an authorized agency. MAC is very particular that certification be based on ISO standards. You may be able to red flag a company that tested positive under your idea, but you could not prohibit certificaiton to them unless the test was conducted by a professional organization following stringent guidelines.

 

[john f]

" intervention by the federal government is the only thing that fits the bill."

I disagree with this completely.

The Federal Government cannot stop 10,000 Mexicans PER DAY from crossing our borders, and you think they can stop cyanide caught fish from entering the country?

Is our hobby so pathetic that we can not police ourselves.

Heck, in this very forum we cannot even name the names of bad companies to alert others of their unsavory business practices.

I love the Scuba diving example:

I like many others on this board scuba dive. This is an activity which can KILL you if your training is inadequate and your equipment is no good. Yet the entire process of certification, tank refilling, and equipment repair/certification is non-governmental. You receive certification from a dive shop which voluntarily participates in Naui or Padi certification programs. They sell you the equipment and service it according to common standards. They will not refill your air tank without you proving you are a certified diver.
And the sport of scuba diving has an incredible safety record considering the resting state of danger involved with submersion down to 100 feet carrying 20-30 pounds of extra weight.


My point is we could get together as hobbyists and form some sort of large group, which could then dictate to LFS, importers, etc. that which is acceptable and that which is not. It is not an easy task............but pinning all our your hopes on the Government for a solution will leave us all disappointed in the end.


John

 

[MaryHM]

The Federal Government cannot stop 10,000 Mexicans PER DAY from crossing our borders, and you think they can stop cyanide caught fish from entering the country?

Yes I do. 10,000 Mexicans are SNEAKING across the border. EVERY fish shipment already goes through Fish & Wildlife for inspection. Apples to oranges.

Is our hobby so pathetic that we can not police ourselves.

After being extremely active in industry reform for the past 3 years, I have to answer that question with an emphatic, although disappointed, YES.

The scuba diving example is one that is mentioned frequently. However, it is quite simplistic in it's design. No card means you haven't taken a class means you don't get an air fill. In actuality, the card really doesn't prove if you're a good/responsible diver or not. Just that you've taken a class and passed. This industry is so much more complex than that that it boggles the mind. But in the same vain, just because a company has a pretty sticker (AMDA or MAC) doesn't mean they are responsible.

From someone who has tried to rally the hobbyists and the industry on several occasions, I can confidentally say that that method has left me "disappointed in the end". This industry is governed by laws. Those laws are currently being blatantly broken. If the government starts to enforce those laws, then things can change. After being highly involved in the whole MAC process for the last few years, and since that is the only real attempt to have the industry police itself, I can again say with all confidence that pinning our hopes on the government is the only way that anything CONCRETE is going to get done. Do I think that proper enforcement will happen overnight and all of our problems will magically disappear?? NO. But I do think it's a better shot at actually getting something done than for us to all rely upon MAC/AMDA/fill in the blank with an acronym.

 

[dizzy]

" intervention by the federal government is the only thing that fits the bill."

I disagree with this completely.

The Federal Government cannot stop 10,000 Mexicans PER DAY from crossing our borders, and you think they can stop cyanide caught fish from entering the country?John

I'm with Johnf, the government has bigger fish to fry. MAC has almost disqualified themselves as reformers by dishonesty, and grass roots movements by eco-hobbists will be about as effective as blacks boycotting the state of South Carolina over the Confederate flag. I think a fully accountable MAC is the answer. It is a shame that AMDA leadership failed to assume the needed role of watchdog over MAC. Jamesw correctly pointed out that MAC has the structure in place. If they can ever restaff it may allow the process to restart.

 

[MaryHM]

The government is already frying this fish via the United States Coral Reef Task Force. It's not like I'm saying "Hey, let's suggest to the government that they do something". They are already looking very closely at this industry and at MAC. When they realize that MAC is not the savior it has been proclaiming to be, they are going to step in. Not this year and probably not next, but I'd say within the next 5 years. Long before MAC ever gets its act together. I just hope they step in to help reform the industry (cyanide testing) and not to shut it down. I think people fear the latter, so they'd rather see status quo continue that to see the government step in.

I wouldn't say that MAC has "structure" in place. To me, structure would comprise trained divers, sustainability reports, quotas set, a realistic infrastructure that could allow for true reform. I'd say they have a plan that at this point would be impossible to implement on a large scale. It would take BIG changes to make it a workable program. And even if they do turn it into a workable program, it is VOLUNTARY. There is nothing to stop someone from not participating. Some would say competition would dictate participation, but let's be realistic. In this industry PRICE dictates competition. If the industry was interested in reforming itself it would. It knows what needs to be done. It's known for 20 years. It's not like we were all sitting around with no clue about the dark side of things until MAC came along and enlightened us (us being the industry- MAC probably brought some of this stuff to light on the hobbyist side). Without teeth MAC will fail. The only thing that can give any reform movement in this industry teeth is legislation. If you had asked me that 2 years ago I'd be saying the opposite. But I've been on the front lines and this is the only alternative I see at this point. Please MAC, prove me wrong.

 

[john f]

" If the government starts to enforce those laws, then things can change."

I would say that's a pretty big IF.

As I stated, there are already laws in place that prevent Mexicans from running accross the border. We have tens of thousands of border agents and spend billions of dollars on this much bigger issue (than fish that is), and still cannot enforce our own laws.

Fish and Wildlife can't even tell the species of the fish they are checking in..........they do even worse on corals. You think they will run fancy cyanides test correctly?

Heck, every passenger getting onto an airplane these days passes through a TON of federal agents for screening. Are you confident they will stop terrorists from boarding airplanes?


I agree with the sentiments of your arguements Mary, but I know in practice it will not work.

I disagree that a grass roots organization cannot make a difference.

What if every member of Reefs.Org and Reefcentral.com made a pledge to not buy any more fish period unless they were certified cyanide free.
Then surely one member of the industry forum (Mary?) could step forward and certify their stock using whatever we agreed was the best way to do this.
Then Mary could simply sell directly to the members of this group, instead of solely to LFS owners.
Pretty simple. Then if the quality of these certified fish is indead higher, Marys business with the group will grow and she may eventually outcompete the non-certified dealers.
This competition model is the only proven way to advance any business idea.

And MAry......................Price is NOT the only game in town. I have said before I would pay 3X normal retail for a properly caught and quarantined fish. I am surely not the only one on these boards who would do so.




John

 

[DBM]

I've got to agree with Mary. If the U.S. government were to do the screening, most wholesalers would have to either smuggle stuff in or would seek alternative sources. I also agree that price is the predominant factor here. I know my customers (retail stores) don't care whether the Harlequin tusk I'm selling them comes from Australia or Indonesia. 99% of them want the fish at the lowest cost. So do their customers. I was in the retail business for 10 years or so, and not even once have I had someone ask me the country of origin on the common marines.

If they could develop a simple, accurate cyanide test and the government used it on incoming shipments, we would have alot more fish coming in from Fiji, Australia, etc.

 

[john f]

"I was in the retail business for 10 years or so, and not even once have I had someone ask me the country of origin on the common marines."

Perhaps you should have done a better job educating your customers.
If you only sold the Australian Tusks and made clear to your customers why they cost more than Indos............they would listen. Not all of them would, but quite a few would.

I have seen the other end (customer side) where the worst possible bull**it is passed from LFS to customer as sage advice. That's the only way alot of LFS customers get their knowledge. And LFS in general do a terrible job of educating reefers.

That's sort of why I propose cutting back their role in our hobby if at all possible.


John

 

[DBM]

Educate my customers? Did that, and am still doing that with my wholesale customers. Even though my business is very small compared to most U.S. based businesses I've been screaming loud enough that I've had a couple of anonymous threats come in over the phone. It hasn't changed the way I do things, but it sits there in the back of my mind. (I can't imagine what poor Steve Robinson has gone through)

By the way, alot of the local stores around here have "100% net-caught marines" - including tiny triggers, blue tangs and emperor angels from Indonesia. It drives me FU**ING CRAZY when I see this, but there's little I can do. We even have a wholesaler around here that for the last 5 years has been telling people that they no longer use cyanide in the Philippines or Indonesia. If the exporters who deal with drug caught fish were red-flagged by the government, wholesalers would be forced to support the ethical exporters.

When I was in the retail end of things we did more than anybody in Western Canada in marines, not because we dealt with only net-caught fish, but because we had excellent customer service, integrity, good prices, and a minimum of 1 shipment of fish per week.

John, if you have the chance, trying working part-time for a quality retailer of marines in your area. The industry could always use more people who are willing to support a sustainable industry, this would also allow you to see what's really going on in the retail end of things.

I use to always get customers saying "I'll only buy net-caught fish", but when you delve deeper you find out they've just bought an indo blue tang from a competitor because it was 10 bucks cheaper. I used to get it all the time and can't see it changing anytime soon.

 

[MaryHM]

Fish and Wildlife can't even tell the species of the fish they are checking in..........they do even worse on corals. You think they will run fancy cyanides test correctly?

Really?? How many F&W inspections have you been present at?? The majority of the agents are extremely good at IDing corals. There are a few that suck, but the "regular" guys are astonishingly good at IDing stressed corals through multi-layered plastic bags. Had a discussion with one about the differences between Herpolitha and Polyphyllia. The fact that he knew these two corals were quite similar in appearance from Indo astonished me. Also, Fish & Wildlife would most likely be confiscating fish and taking them back to a laboratory to run the tests. I would trust the findings of a gov. lab quicker than a MAC label.

I have said before I would pay 3X normal retail for a properly caught and quarantined fish.

That's YOU. And maybe 10% of the members of reefs.org and rc. That is no where near the majority of the hobbyists representing the industry. Just because there are a handful of elite hobbyists who are willing to pay more does not mean that they drive 10's of thousands of hobbyists who only care about price. John, with all due respect I have owned both retail and wholesale operations and know this is true. I highly doubt any industry professional would say that this is a quality driven industry vs. a price driven industry. Heck, there are lots of retailers on this board- what are your opinions??

Perhaps you should have done a better job educating your customers.

Again, the VAST majority of hobbyists won't even spend $20 to buy a book to learn about the intricacies of the hobby. You think they care where a fish came from?? The only thing they want to know is "How much?".

And LFS in general do a terrible job of educating reefers.

I do agree with this to a point. However, the resources available to hobbyists these days is astonishing. Magazines, books, internet- they don't only have to rely on their LFS.

"I'll only buy net-caught fish", but when you delve deeper you find out they've just bought an indo blue tang from a competitor because it was 10 bucks cheaper. I used to get it all the time and can't see it changing anytime soon.

Right on. Everyone talks the talk. Very few walk the walk.

 

[Anonymous]

For those of us who want to "walk the talk", what do we do?

Give me one good supply chain. Advertise it well. Have the retailer be an online one since the most ethical hobbyists willing to spend the extra money will be spread out too thinly to support a traditional storefront. Allow the online supplier to also sell fish from traditional suppliers in addition to selling the premium, verifiably net caught ones. Let the ethical hobbyists give testimonials on the improved survivability of the premium fish.

How about having Steve verify point of capture? He could send the livestock to you, Mary. Then you could tell us the name of the online vendor's name.

Then we would have at least one good supply chain.

If a good supply chain currently exists please P.M. me with their name and email address; if you do not want to publish it on the BB. I'm planning on purchasing some livestock in the next few months.

Thanks for your patience,
-Lee

 

[john f]

Some of your points are well taken Mary.

But why not offer me and the other 10% as you say a choice.

You could sell both certified net caught and uncertified fish directly to the end user.

See how the sales go that way. Until you try it side by side you cannot say it would not work.

BTW, reefcentral alone has probably a couple thousand members.and my guess is more than the 10% would go for the higher quality.


John

 

[SPC]

John F and Sciguy2,
If healthy fish are so important to this hobby, then why do the captive bread/raised companies not have a long waiting list? At one time selection was used as an excuse as to why these companies sales were so low, but this can't be used as much now. IMO, and without any doubt in my mind, the difference is cost. I would be real interested to know how many people on RC actually support the captive bred/reared industry. In fact, I would be very interested in how many check to see what country of origin the fish come from, and if it were going to cost more would they be willing to pay the difference. Heck, some of the biggest debates on RC are over Powder Blue Tangs, if we as hobbiest can't even agree on not purchasing nearly impossible to keep fish, how many do you think would care where the fish came from?
Steve