Era of MAC certification begins.

[MaryHM]

The USDA has been dealing with invasive species in our shipments for the last several months. Mainly looking at algae and snails. USDA absolutely sucks (for lack of a better term!) at this, and they are notorious for holding up shipments because they don't have a clue what they're even looking for. That is why I refuse to directly import snails or algae anymore- I go through a middleman for these items and let them deal with the USDA headaches. However, this is completely separate from Fish & Wildlife (who inspects to insure that CITES laws, US livestock import laws, etc.. are properly enforced) and there is no reason why they couldn't take up this issue and run with it. The laws are already in place. All we need is the test. And not every shipment would even need to be tested- just those from countries with a known track record of cyanide...Indo and Philippines.

As far as Randy's comment of "Let the seller beware". Beware of what?? Beware that retailers may be able to figure out who is carrying cyanide fish? It doesn't take a genius to figure that one out now, just look at their stocklists. Beware that the government might use it? That's the only thing to beware of, and frankly I'm looking forward to it. Those of us with nothing to hide have nothing to fear.

 

[Anonymous]

and I used to believe in Santa Claus!

I don't understand this statement. Are you implying that Santa does not, in fact, exist?



In all seriousness, though...

Mary, I applaud your efforts in what seems to be an increasingly uphill battle. Any time a single person tries to make a difference against greed and politics, they face impossible odds. Even if you can make a small dent, it will be an achievement. Maybe not the result you are looking for, perhaps, but the accomplishment will be amazing nonetheless.

Best of luck...I'll continue to follow this along, for it is most interesting, if not extremely thought-provoking.

And you know, I actually have a question. As a retailer, what can I do to help this cause? Anything?

Peace,

Chip

 

[MaryHM]

Chip,

To answer your question, here are some of the things retailers should be doing:

1. Educate yourself and your customers as to the husbandry of the animals you plan to carry. Know if it eats something weird or if it doesn't get along with another critter or if it wants certain lighting/flow.

2. Try your darndest to only buy handcaught fish. I know it's difficult. Believe me, when I look at my pathetically short list of fish every week and know that my competition is sending out PAGES of fish, it bugs me. How do you know if you're getting handcaught fish?? If your supplier faxes you PAGES of fish, the majority are from PI and Indo. Count on it.

3. Keep yourself informed of legislation and other things like it (MAC) that will affect the industry. Look at it from all angles. Don't just take it at face value or even take my word for it. Study the issues and take action based upon your best judgement.

There are many retailers on here that can probably add to this list.

 

[naesco]

Mary, what can I do to help?

 

[flameangel1]

Just to add to what Mary said,,
Do not stock animals that are not hardy
,(if they are not available, people will not want to buy them)

Do not sell animals that are not eating and adjusted to captivity yet.
The customers will understand why you do not carry such and such or will not sell that fish yet.
Just explain to them the "why", and they will be one more person who will carry our message.

 

[MaryHM]

Naesco:

As a hobbyist, I would say it's your responsibility to only deal with reputable LFS that are following the suggestions that have already been put forth. And of course, keep yourself informed of legislation/issues that may affect the hobby.

I've gone from a "let's all rally together and fix this beast" mentality to a "every person do his individual part to fix this beast" mentality. I'm just so frustrated and disheartened with the current "fixes" that it makes my stomach churn to even think about them. There is currently nothing in the works that is going to create even a little fix- unless Fish & Wildlife can get a stateside cyanide test up and running. If I can figure out any way that we can all work together and support that, then I will let everyone know. Until then, if each of us does our little part to create a responsible industry/hobby then at least something is being accomplished. It may be small and not matter much in the grand scheme of things, but at least it's something.

 

[flameangel1]

Mary,,
You and I both, know we can not change the big picture, and we both have tried. (and gotten too frustrated to think straight )

But, if each of us can "keep our own houses clean", and if many of us do that, it WILL make a difference.
Politics is a waste of time/energy and gets no where fast (or slow).
But, if we EACH do our part to educate and be ethical in this hobby, it will work out.
(at least I hope so. )
Keep the faith !!!!!

 

[clarionreef]

Hello People,
Reading the latest thread gives me a feeling of De ja vu all over again. These were the sentiments of the mid 80's when the issue had great promise of being solved. Will there ever be a test, how do we get all net caught fish, who's already solved the problem so we can simply order away, how much progress has been made, how many can be trained in a year, etc.
Born and bred on the cheap and easily available supply of blue tangs, cheap pigmy angels, clown triggers and every possible fish, todays responsible, consciencious retailer hopes to simply switch to a net-caught supplier, continue to enjoy the same variety, at a close or similar price and sleep well at nite. We are spoiled by the long lists of great fish variety spamming our faxes by eager salespeople on commission, competing and cheapening a resource on decline. Add to this the new generation of cheap and easy direct e-tailers and the pressure to compete and provide cheap variety increases.
At the same time...environmental issues are sharpening, criticism of the trade is mounting, a new blast from the LA Times is pending, the USCRTF is watching and we all want to be responsible and behave properly.
John Tullock, founder of AMDA [and almost first head of MAC ]said it best when he pitched the truth to the WWF when they were first putting MAC together...
His rationale went something like this..
We have to train a lot more divers first. If you don't affect the mass supply of cheap, cyanide caught fish, the newer, fewer and more expensive net-caught fish will not compete well in the marketplace. The most consciencious importers who buy only net-caught fish will be punished for their ethics and will lose out in the marketplace. Retailers who support them beyond sporadic token purchases, will have to charge more than the general fish supply and lose out in the marketplace.
Netcaught fish will symbolize overcharging and gouging in the minds of the majority of consumers and the the cyanide fish supply will prevail.

Theres some 5,000 fairly serious saltwater retailers in this country and they collectively represent considerable buying power. They put little or no pressure on importers to clean up the fish supply. They do however put considerable pressure on importers to be cheap, have lots of sales, keep the damsels down to $1.00-$1.25 and "stock everything my customers want so I don't have to get it somewhere else." Importers in kind cut each others throats to be cheap enough to attract this mob and a culture is created where reason and environmental sustainability have no place...except among a few who check out Reef.org once in awhile.
This will not be solved by an emerging avalanche of born again eco-oriented merchants demanding certified fish.[ unless they cost the same and have just as much variety] I've been selling netcaught fish for 20 years now with more credibility than most and it is a very hard sell. I know who I'm dealing with and you guys reading this with concern do not represent even 5 % of the retailer sentiment. In the same vein, good, honest, moral people do not represent the norm in a mass, crass, commercial economy where we are accustomed to getting what we want by any means neccessary.
The answer isn't supposed to be up to you alone. The gov't. of the Philippines has pulled its punches for far too long and they need to join civilization and crack down They have been bamboozled by IMA and now MAC and have waited and watched...and waited some more. Years go by and their reefs slip away one by one, day by day. 2 or 3 exporters need to go to jail, not just a dozen or so divers once in awhile. They need to crack heads. Its their country that suffers as their reefs don't produce jobs and protein anymore. The fish business just switches more and more to Indonesia where reform is just a glint in a grant writers eye.Indo has trained a few dozen in the last two years. 100 have joined the ranks of cyanide fisherman since then.
The US Fish and Wildlife Service? If ever and when ever. Don't hold your breath. I hope for that one very much but its not going to happen like you might imagine. If it did this could get easy fast and I sense that everyone wants it to get easy fast....
I've been playing Hamlet and considering to bring in net caught Philippine again but the people in the groups who need an importer dumb enough to do this all have salaries. Its easy to believe in sustainability if you're paid too. Carrying netcaught only from the Philippines carries the sales pitch of doing the right thing. This serves to alienate and irritate the great percentage who just want to cherrypick us or mix our fish with cyanide fish to call em all the same.
If there were a ready base of real netcaught supporters, say 40 or so it could work. Today I know about 6...and thats after decades in the business. I'd need a grant to do Phillipines properly because the market is not prepared to go as far as I am to stay clean...If its netcaught or nothing, that is the mission.Cheating and mixing cyanide fish w/ the netcaught is reprehensible when representing the hopes of honest supporters. Certifying and authenticating cyanide fish is premeditated fraud...Since it doesn't pay to be clean, its not surprising to find that the only reformers in the trade are supporting themselves NOT on Phillipine or Indo fish...the opposite of mainstream LA importers.
The more you know, the better we can think on this stuff together...the freedom of expression allowed on this forum is refreshing.
Sincerely, Steve

 

[dizzy]

John Tullock, founder of AMDA [and almost first head of MAC ]said it best when he pitched the truth to the WWF when they were first putting MAC together...
His rationale went something like this..
We have to train a lot more divers first. If you don't affect the mass supply of cheap, cyanide caught fish, the newer, fewer and more expensive net-caught fish will not compete well in the marketplace. The most consciencious importers who buy only net-caught fish will be punished for their ethics and will lose out in the marketplace. Retailers who support them beyond sporadic token purchases, will have to charge more than the general fish supply and lose out in the marketplace.
Netcaught fish will symbolize overcharging and gouging in the minds of the majority of consumers and the the cyanide fish supply will prevail.

Sincerely, Steve

Steve,

I think it is a real tragedy John Tullock wasn't hired to head MAC. Having someone at the top who understood the marine industry would have been a real plus. I'm not sure John could have pulled off all of the WWF goals, but I think he would of had the good sense to tell them he couldn't. Probably why he didn't get the job.

I really do believe you could get the 40 dealers plus if you could at least keep the variety interesting. Personally I like things like clown triggers, imperator angels, majestic angels, and hippo tangs. I don't think it is necessary to have everything that is available today from the juice guys, but we do need some of the good hardies. I would love to have net-caught stress reduced fish. It would certainly be worth paying a little more for the A-list stuff if it were bullit proof. At the same time I think the stuff from the clean countries (like Fiji) should remain competitive, if it were to have a chance of working.

Are you going to MACNA? We can have a beer.

Cheers

 

[naesco]

So as hobbyists we can promote those LFS who are responsible and promote to the LFS we deal with wholesalers who are also responsible.

We can also promote responsible LFS and wholesalers on this board.

Does anyone have a reasonable guess as to the percentage of reefers who are members of this and other reefing boards?

 

[clarionreef]

Hello Mitch,
It is precisely the fish you mentioned that are the indicator species for evaluating the credibility of an Asian exporter. [ Indo or Philippines]
Add centropyge angels to the list and theres where half the cyanide goes. These are the same groups rarely offered for testing when the IMA was running those bogus labs. I mean the labs were real and anchored a lot of business ie. [funding]. They tested butterflyfish and powder brown tangs, foxfaces and tomato clowns, heniochus and freeswimming anthias species that never hole up. Since the testers thought all fish were basically equally vulnerable to cyanide attack, they never zeroed in on the categories that were usually caught with cyanide. Exporters knew very well what fish to offer for testing and what fish NOT to offer for testing. As testing was run primarily on what species exporters would volunteer for testing, yes I said volunteer... [ a word that automatically invalidates the testing process in the minds of anyone who knows about the problem] the true picture of cyanide abuse was never revealed. If blue tangs, majestics, imperators and clown triggers were regularly offered for testing, the resultant positives for cyanide would've proven embarrassing. If you test for cyanide on these fish in INDO today you'll get a high ninety percent reading. [ assuming the test is run according to the original protocols and not watered down.]
So Mitch, to answer your question...The precise lack of clean imps, majestics, clown triggers and blue tangs is what has killed off reformers in this issue for years. Netcaught exporters and importers without these fishes suffer greatly in the marketplace. What would one think the problem was with reformers? This is exactly it. When these primary fish can be produced without cyanide, than reformers can compete on a level playing field...until then they must chase away business with the self imposed handicap of dealing in a diminished species list. [This is why I want more training in more areas...to include the more important species! ]Who is dumb enough to do that besides me and Mary? [sorry Mary]
I'd love to go to Dallas and was proposed as a speaker, but denied. I guess I don't have much of anything relevant to say.
Fragging inches of coral is a more popular issue than saving reefs of coral. Without forums to calmly present the evidence with slides and graphs, its hard to argue this thing well. People are afraid of what they don't understand and understanding is hard w/out a forum that goes beyond quick clips and sound bites.
We used to have a forum in FAMA , and thats when we got close to getting the job done, but lost it due to commercial pressure on the magazine. . . oh well, coulda, woulda, shoulda. Steve

 

[MaryHM]

Just for the record, I have been receiving Clown Triggers, Imperator Angels, and Blue Tangs hand caught from Tonga that have been doing extremely well. Blue Tangs also from Solomons. Cost more, but live.

 

[clarionreef]

Mary,
As have I ... although rather large [and XL ]. The small clown triggers and blue tangs especially are so hard to get beyond Asia and thats what a few thousand stores are looking for in this country alone. The Tonga supply may in fact approach 1% of the trades requirements but I doubt it.
Tonga, ironically uses imported Filipino divers trained a decade ago because they couldn't get enough respect in the Philippines for their skills and weren't used as trainers to train more Filipinos. Such a shame. Whats a net collecting Filipino to do if he wants to stay straight? Leave the country? Steve

 

[MaryHM]

Agreed, Steve. They are quite big and few and far between. But hey, at least I can finally say I have a clown trigger or imperator in my facility!! Took me 3 and a half years, but I finally got some!

 

[jamesw]

Steve,

Welcome to the Industry forum. It's great to have another wholesaler here to bring us the facts.

Sincerely,
James Wiseman

 

[SPC]

Posted by cortez marine:

People are afraid of what they don't understand and understanding is hard w/out a forum that goes beyond quick clips and sound bites.

-Thanks for the very informative posts Steve. I have found what you have said here in your posts to be very easy to "understand", do you not feel that the people attending MACNA would understand your message?
Steve

 

[clarionreef]

Hello SPC,
My point exactly. In a forum of reason, we can always reach understanding. But there has been little forum of reason receptive to an honest exploration of the inconvenient truth of matters of our Asian fish supply.
We had a bit of a run on the AMDA e-mails in the beggining of the year, we had 3 days of civility in the MAC importers conference last March [ with no follow-up] and we had a huge conference on the issues last Nov. in Orlando full of biologists, officials, some Euros and lots of MAC people. The actual wholesalers and retailers there were a small minority.
The problem with achieving a real forum of progress is that most of the exporters and importers are very reluctant to speak frankly and openly of the fact that their livlihoods are largely based on an illegal and indefensible collecting methodology. A collecting technology that enjoys the benefit of a 50 year history, long term "cloaking" by the governments of Indonesia and the Philippines and long term compliance by the "enlightened" market countries. In turn, the consumers of the tainted goods are stuck in a quandry between wanting to do the right thing and needing the species unfortunately collected the wrong way.
We simply have not solved the problem yet and simply wishing it to be solved doesn't make it solved.
Anyway, contained in this message are some of reasons why I'm not so en vogue anymore. Come to think of it maybe its not a lack of understanding... but too much understanding that has served to keep me outside the reform "business". Pretending to solve the problems of the environment has become a big, serious business and those who engage in it find true believers annoying and inconvenient.
Annoyingly and inconveniently yours, Steve

 

[clarionreef]

PS.
Industry groups like MACNA and AMDA and MASNA to be sure want to do the right thing and work towards a responsible industry. By definition they all are on the receiving end in this trade and not the production end where the scene of the crime is.
It is understandable that there has evolved a great leap of faith and hope that the professional non-profit organizations ie. IMA and MAC are doing the job that needs to be done. There is an assumption that these groups know how to do that job.
I would love to address MACNA conferences et al. but they generally have the issue covered they say because MAC has become a fixture at the conferences already. People can barely embrace the call to reform, Regarding democratic disagreements among reformers is just too much to figure out. Steve

 

[dizzy]

I would love to address MACNA conferences et al. but they generally have the issue covered they say because MAC has become a fixture at the conferences already. People can barely embrace the call to reform, Regarding democratic disagreements among reformers is just too much to figure out. Steve

Steve,

There are plenty of ways to speak up at MACNA even if you are not speaking. At the end of every lecture (almost) there is a great question and answer session. AMDA is meeting on Saturday and it should be an interesting discussion. I guess Paul H. and Dave V. from MAC will be there and listening to suggestions.
And last but not least there are great opportunities to have meaningful discussions in the hotel bar. A great time is generally had by all, and going to a MACNA is like a saltwater revival. A word of warning though: Don't mess with Texas.

 

[MaryHM]

Paul and Dave were at last year's AMDA meeting "listening to suggestions". In case you haven't noticed, MAC may "listen", but they sure as heck don't hear!!

I was at MACNA last year and spoke to lots and lots of people about industry reform issues on a personal level (I wasn't a presenter). Everyone likes to hear about it, ask what they can do to help, tell me how much they support what I'm doing, then proceed go about doing exactly what they have been doing for the past however long. Honestly, Steve would be wasting his time at MACNA. If the "powers that be" wouldn't listen to Steve at the Los Angeles MAC meeting (those powers include MAC and all of the wholesalers), then frankly Steve isn't going to get anywhere talking to hobbyists at MACNA. A forum like this is good because everything he says is recorded and lots and lots of people can access it. Plus MAC, government, and industry are reading this froum. Maybe it will cause someone to stop and think. And at least speaking in this forum doesn't cost you airfare/hotel/food/drinks/etc..!

Sincerely,
Your severely cynical and jaded moderator....