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Anonymous

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All Wet Pets; Flushing, Michigan
Aquascapes / The Reef Shop ; Portage, Michigan
Living Sea Aquarium; Park Ridge, Ill
Preuss Animal House; Lansing, Michigan

It would be informative if any of these guys could give the experiences with the certification process.

Cost for certification was between $1500 and $650

A&M Aquatics and Coast Mountain Aquatics were the first two wholesalers to be certified.

New collection areas in the Phillipines and new exporters have also been approved.
 

clarionreef

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So let me get this straight...
Without any serious field training policy or programs in the Philippines to create more than a 'token' body of certified divers, we are now certifying exporters,retailers and wholesalers? And with plenty more to come.
Interesting, but still as perdicted for the past year.

The main guy in the MANILAS MAC program has already given up trying to convince the 'white guys at the top' of actually training and converting cyanide fisherman professionally and has recently uttered the most powerful condemnation yet of their out of touch, hands off policy of neglecting the field issues...."If you can't beat em, join em".
The second field trainer is letting his contract run out for 'incompatability' problems with this same detached and far removed management clic.
If I were to seek certification, which I certainly am not, I would be very pissed off at being sold an expensive certification certificate without the honest goods to go with it. Surely, knowingly certifying something falsely must be illegal if not improper.
You want to see more information with regards to this monkey business? Theres a lot in the pipeline but I'm not sure if this is the forum for it. I can tell you this however. I'll never let "peace thru fraud" be an acceptable policy and if the MAC field programs don't get more honest. I will hold them responsible for the squandering of the good will among those who want the problems solved and not whitewashed.
I signed a letter of commitment to support not MAC but the reform of the trade as proferred by MAC. I will recind that endorsement if cyanide fish continue to be certified to unsuspecting yet well meaning marinelife dealers in this country.
You all want the truth? Can our trade even handle the truth?
Things are coming to a head soon and believe it or not, I am not nearly the harshest critic of the lack of achievement in the Philippines that gives so much importance to the MAC program.
None of you out there would be happy to pay for a certificate that your car was fixed if it wasn't really fixed now would you? Of course not.
Maybe we're all supposed to go along with the show somehow and I missed a memo on it. If so, will someone please tell me where the pay off is to sell out on the issue? Where did I ever get the idea that we were supposed to be sincere and honest in life and in business? Theres good in the world. Why can't we embrace it and be part of it? Who says the shallowest of business practices and P.R. gimmickry has to stand for our own?? "Can't beat em join em"?
Hell no...no training, no peace!
Steve Robinson
 

dizzy

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Rover,

If you had attended the AMDA meeting at MACNA you would have gotten to hear from the owners of two of those stores. I remember hearing the $1500.00 figure for the certification visit. It goes something like this: You develop your own comprehensive management plan and write it all up. You describe each employee's duties and qualifications. You explain how fish are acclimated and how water quality test are performed. Basically you give them a very detailed guide to how you conduct your saltwater operations, and then you pay them to come and make sure you are doing things the way you say you are. You need to carefully show how you will be able to seperate MAC and non-Mac fish, and how you can prove where every fish in the house came from. You will also need to feed mortality data into the Global Marine Fish Data Base.

If you pass the MAC inspection and you "pay your dues" you will earn the right to sell MAC fish. From all I have been reading the MAC fish will basically be the same fish we already have, only they will be more expensive due to the certification sticker. If it wasn't for sites like reefs.org that allow the folly of all this to be exposed, you might have been able to fool the conservationist hobbyist. Unfortunately for the MAC stores, the only people who care enough to pay more for better handled fish, will be the same ones who are informed enough to know the MAC fish ain't.

Mitch
 

clarionreef

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I wish everyone to go over to the general discussion category and look under...
CORL protects coral reefs or something along those lines...
Read those threads before you think it must be the MAC-WASH or nothing.
I heard a very distubing rumor today and I hope its not true.
I just heard that another dozen exporters were just certified in the Philippines and that better not be true. If it is true we will soon have more certified marinelife dealers than netcaught fish. Handing out certifications to cloak and cover the cyanide trade without respect to deeds is in my view a criminal act and a serious breach of contract with the dealers who signed the letter of commitment with MAC.
This must be a false rumor because if its not...all bets are off and the bait and switch scandal is a verified, certified reality.

...and no one better tell me to cool it in order to ..to what? Save the trade ? The trade needs honest leadership and representation...not snake oil salesman, scam artists and false prophets.
I'm going to quit now and try and find out if the reform goodwill that has been building has just been sold out.
Steve
 

DBM

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Steve, I hope it isn't a rumour. As far as I'm concerned, if this is true, it's the last straw. This will surely open the flood gates.
I know the idea of such a thing has got me royally pissed off. How is it that an exporter can be MAC certified, but does not have to purchase their fish from MAC certified collectors? How is it that up until now my supplier in the Philippines purchases 85% of the fish collected by MAC divers but is tiny compared to most?
What the hell is MAC doing, and how dare they say they represent true reform? Those of us who truly give a rat's ass about our industry have got to do something, NOW!
Steve, you've got my vote for the AMDA. Let me know what I can do to help out.

Doug
 

kylen

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DBM,

Very nice to see that you are "pissed off", as you say, about MAC, but at the same time you certainly like to peddle your product to retailers that they come from a MAC certified supplier.
 

DBM

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Kyle, it would be nice if you would have identified yourself as my competitor here in Vancouver and the fact that you are the second wholesaler to become MAC certified.
To me personally, MAC means nothing. I used to buy from your supplier 7 years ago, long before MAC was around - she was a referral from Steve Robinson as was one other company. The supplier I'm dealing with now was also a referral from Steve Robinson, last time I asked she was the only referral from Steve Robinson (Paul Rubec of the IMA has also mentioned her). She is the real deal, with the limited stocksheet to prove it. She buys all her fish from MAC certified divers (about 85% of all the fish collected by MAC divers). Where do all the other MAC certified wholesalers get their fish if they're not caught by MAC certified divers?

Sure, I'll mention in my introductory letter that she's certified by MAC, some think this means something - but once they contact me I try and educate them as best I can as to why they should buy my fish versus those from other MAC suppliers, and why. How else should I do this? Do you really think that anybody knows who Ferdie and the boys are? Everyone says their fish are net-caught.

Kyle, last night my supplier sent me a copy of a scathing letter directed to Paul Holthus that I will post with her permission (she's a MAC certified exporter remember). It sounds like she may be the first one jumping ship (as she's the only one out there not mixing fish). If she wont let me post it I'll bring you this letter to read the next time I'm in Richmond to pick up fish.
Kyle, if your customers who care see this letter, your association with MAC will actually be a detriment to you; but this isn't the way I do business. I don't have anything against you, I think that your hostility may be because you feel I was challenging you personally, who knows. I think you're trying your best to do what's right, there have been alot of respectable people out there, with alot more experience than you or I misled by MAC.

Doug
 

flameangel1

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Steve (cortez) and all others,,
As I feel that the MAC , as is/was AMDA, is totally about whitewashing the industry for those who do not know any better-and IS also totally about money (for whom/where)-- I absolutely REFUSE to be any part of this MAC (or AMDA) certification.
I feel it is all a "cover -up" (and have many facts for this belief)-
certification has no basis in honesty anywhere along the line imo- and to pay for something that is totally FALSE, just to "look good", is hypocritical to anyone who honestly cares about this hobby/industry !!!

Until PROVEN otherwise (and I really doubt it can be ) I sincerely hope none of the honest dealers/wholesalers et. al, will buy into this certification whitewash !!!! Maybe THEN, it might actually become a reality that means something !!!!!
 

flameangel1

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added note-- when John Tullock started the AMDA, it was about honesty and caring and cleaning up this industry. He and a few of the other "origonals" came up against so many obstacles, that they eventually just got "burned out" on the trying. I do not in any way blame them for this. AMDA then became a "whitewash/money", no basis, organization.
(and yes, I do know the behind the scenes facts here)

As an idealist, I simply can not support dishonesty-and by refusing to be part of AMDA or the MAC, feel I am doing my part to clean up this industry, one small step at a time. If those of us ,who really do CARE, would all do these "small steps"-I firmly believe we can accomplish a real change in this industry.
But- if one buys into the white wash cover-up-they are supporting it !!!!!
 

dizzy

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Doug,

I just read Marivi's letter. It's all very sad actually. Marivi is very brave and worthy of support. I agree with Steve that we need leaders who speak the truth. That tangled web thing is just so right on.

Mitch
 

clarionreef

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Hello People,
It is with regret that I inform you all...the rumor is true.
Certificates will now be handed out on the streetcorner [and already have been] to allow all who wish to enjoy the public relations benefits of a MAC certification to do so.
The evidence and the facts will all come out very quickly now and they will make all of us who really care feel knaive for every daring to believe that MAC would be sincere. John Tullock was right and allowed himself to burn out on the effort to enlist the trade to save its own life. [ I mean without productive coral reefs where do you think the fish supply will come from?...duh...]
Well I'm not burned out and frankly have been wating for more than a decade for the phoney office type eco-business NGO's to reveal themselves enough so that my lonely charges of fraud and scandal would finally receive the attention credibility they are now getting.
I'm not burned out and I am running for AMDA president and I challenge and dare anyone to run against me. I am sick and tired of being told to cool it and trust all the powers that be to make progress on issues they barely understand. AMDA can be forged into a useful vehicle for reform and I intend to make it exactly that.
We save the marinelife trade by saving the coral reefs and insuring sustainable collecting methodolgies. The trades benefit will be incidental to our reformed behavior. Whitewashing is lying, cheating and stealing plain and simple and going along with it makes you an accomplice.
Witting or unwitting...if your going to continue to be the problem, you are not part of the solution.
I'm not going to behave any longer and I'm willing to bet that there's enough true believers out there to finally support an honest movement to tell the truth.
Sincerely, Steve Robinson
 

DBM

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Hey Dizzy,

Try not to tell everyone who we're buying our fish from eh? I sure hope she let us reveal the contents of this letter. By the way, how'd you get your copy? I hope she has sent it to all of those who purchase from her or those who are legitimately concerned about doing what's right. The ones buying from her are the ones who want to make a difference. I'll send you an e-mail, I've got some questions for you.

Doug
 

dizzy

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Doug,

Once stuff gets in cyber space it can land a lot of places. A lot about MAC certified suppliers can be learned by going to the MAC site www.aquariumcouncil.org Somehow I was thinking the person was more widely know. I actually used the MAC site to figure out who the retailers were that allowed MAC to use them to fake the feasibility test cases.

Mitch
 

clarionreef

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Hello folks,
A lot of things will be revealed soon about the corruption of the reform movement but please understand this:
Without explaining why things have not been fixed, you can't enlist anyone to really fix em. How many of you well meaning people have always said, 'Well, lets give em a chance first." Now that the years of doing that are over. Its time to see where it all went wrong and what can be done to set it right.
The poor saps in the Philippines who let themselves be abused and tricked into believing this deal was legit are justifiably pissed off. They will be heard and the facts will fall where they may.
Those who bring out the information are not the problem. The problem is that there exists too much unfortunate information to bring out!
The next time someone shoots a messenger, I think the messenger should shoot back!
The real crime is the betrayal of public trust. Especially when funds are solicited and used for other purposes. The colusion with the cyanide trade and the abandonment of the reformers in the process is a crime to me of the highest order.
I seriously question MACs right to even continue with this charade and call for a change in leadership. I am not anti-MAC. I am anti-lying and cheating and squandering and backstabbing of people better than they.
I challenge them to defend themselves or fall on their own swords.
Sincerely, Steve
 

JennM

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Steve, what can the "average" retailer do?

When I first set up shop earlier this year, I was all set to join AMDA, but some learned acquaintances in the trade who had previously been involved in AMDA advised me that this might not be of any benefit to me (they implied that the organization was "all politics and no action"), so I didn't bother joining. I'm active on the local level in my club, and in MASNA, I'm probably not as current on the state of affairs in the industry as I could be, but I get the impression that I'm more up to speed than many of my peers across the nation, who are preoccupied with their own affairs that they don't seem to care or be concerned with issues that affect their business (present company notwithstanding, of course). As a retailer I would think that it's every retailer's concern to know what's going on, since it can change the way they do business, but surprisingly few seem to be involved, or this forum would be exploding with activity.

As a small retailer, what else can *I* do to help the industry? What can I do to help the reefs? To some extent I believe that what I do educates people about the reefs, that they might not ever see firsthand. I try to choose my livestock carefully, from reputable dealers, I choose aquacultured whenever I can, I try to educate my customers and encourage them to ask questions, but I can't help but feel there could be more that I can do.

I've sat back and watched the MAC saga develop. On one hand, I support the pure intention of what MAC hopes to accomplish, but on the other hand it's all a big farse, IMO. I would LOVE to have less than 1 % mortality (or whatever their revised criteria are) and as it is, I have very few DOA from my suppliers, (I have no idea what their DOA/DAA rates are though...) but I have to admit that even with careful ordering (we do have to take a lot on faith from our wholesalers) I've had a few "mysterious" deaths...I keep records of those for my own reference, and if a pattern develops with a given supplier...well....I am a careful buyer. I want value for my customers, even if that means paying more, and value means properly caught or aquacultured specimens.. specimens with a life expectancy of more than a couple of weeks until their livers turn to mush.... I got started in this hobby in the mid 80s and shopped at a great store where the owner taught us about the effects of cyanide on fish (if not the reefs) and who took great pains THEN to get the best specimens he could. It's a sad thing that not a whole lot has changed in that regard, and while I acknowledge and applaud your efforts to change the way things are done, we all know it still goes on. The only way I see to change things as far as cyanide issues go, is for everyone in the chain of custody to insist on net caught fish and responsible collection. Easier said that done, but nobody said it would be easy. If collectors can't sell cyanide caught catches, they will have to change their methods. I am sure I am over simplifying things, but is that not the real crux of the matter?

What else can I do, to get the truth out there? What else can I do to "do the right thing"? If MAC is not the answer as it exists right now (and I don't believe it is, and I won't "buy" a certification). what can the average retailer do to make a difference? My fear is that perception will be everything, and those willing to subscribe to the political rhetoric that a MAC certification buys, will have an advantage in the eyes of the consumer. How do we call it like it is, without leaving consumers thinking it's sour grapes on the part of non-certified retailers?


Jenn
 

clarionreef

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Jen and so many others,
I have a real feeling of vindication now as the MAC fraud is being exposed from within. The most important figures in the Manila movement have seriously testified against them in the most damning ways possible. They simply can't do the field work and instead focus on the next steps up...essentially certifying rancid beef as it were.
The answer and the solution to this is as old as 20 years when it was first witnessed, verified and shown to the world in month after month of FAMA magazine in 1981 til 1991. Then, the pros took over and took the issue to the bank...neglecting and abandoning the field work. After all, this thing has always been run since by city people out of touch with the issues and w/ scant interest or ability to understand them. Netting material, proper training techniques etc. are faked and many well meaning people who also don't know the field stuff go along with it.
The collective need to clean up the trade has been offered as achievement itself...without the deeds to go w/ it.
If I were in charge of MAC I know what I'd do. I could train a thousand on video tape inside of 6 months and teach dozens of other trainers to continue the multiplier effect. Village after village, province after province. In two years we'd be out of the woods on this.
There is however, a serious bias against competence on this issue and my scenario would be unlikely.
I wish that Packared Foundation or MacArthur or the World Wildlife Fund cared enough to be effective. I wish I would be offered a fraction of the funds squandered on this thing by the Haribon, IMA and the MAC AND CHALLENGED TO PUT UP OR SHUT UP. Is anyone out there connected to any grand poobahs in this industry who would like to solve the field problem once and for all?
Marineland, Aquarium Systems,Coralife, mega wholesalers, PIJAC, TFH, petco, petsmart, etc. etc. Aren't there major eco points and PR points to go to the one who can help get it done? Its solveable. Just not with the characters who have controlled the issue for so long.
Training fish collectors is what I do for a living. This is way the faking of it is so galling to me and why I have spoken out. Theres an old saying..."if you don't do it it won't get done." Well maybe thats true.
I suggest an alliance with the CORL group the deploy and train and nothing else until that gets going strong. Of course no honest person could carry on a certification charade without first training and converting cyanide collectors first. It has to start in the field...
Put up or shut up??? Will someone please suggest a way to finance a bonafide reform movement? Any venture capital or foundation people who want a sure fire winner? We have a ready made audience rooting for and counting on success. All we've been lacking is basic field competence to engineer that success. I trained several hundreds in the 80's and early ninety's. I could do it again. If not...fine, What else ya got?
Vote for Me for AMDA president for now.
Sincerely, Steve Robinson
 

dizzy

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Jenn,

I think it might be time that you reconsidered joining AMDA. AMDA needs members like you Jeremy, Glenn, Judy, Mary, Doug, and any of the others who not only work in the industry, but also care about helping to decide the future of the industry. AMDA is going to have new leaders and a new direction. I'm sure this forum and other mediums can be used to attract new members. Hopefully we can work together to not only reform the industry, but to get group insurance and things like "power buys" for retail members.

Check out www.amdareef.com John Tullock started something and it got turned in a different direction somehow. AMDA has some good core members. The organization needs to grow. Please give it some consideration.

Mitch Gibbs
 

MaryHM

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I've been very intrigued, although not surprised, with the MAC emails that have been going back and forth in the last several days. Here is how I KNOW that MAC is all about greenwashing and not about truly certifying sustainable industry practices. If MAC wanted to do this thing and do it right, they would not have started in the Philippines. They would have started in Fiji, Tonga, Solomons, etc... where drug use is a non-issue. They would have perfected the certification process there, given a heavy marketing campaign to those regions, and then made some money off of those certifications to fight the real problems in the Philippines. Instead they have chosen to go where the problem is 2nd worse and start a program from scratch there. When things didn't go the way they planned (the thousands of divers they were claiming were trained were NOT, creating a marketable variety of species was not easy, etc...) then they were forced to greenwash in order to secure future funding. To receive all of this funding, you have to show RESULTS. No results after a few years and you aren't going to get funded again. The deadline for actually accomplishing something other than a standards manual is due. Are they going to throw their hands up and say "We failed, please take away our comfy salaries"?? OF COURSE NOT!! They'll just "fudge" the system a little bit and make it appear that certified fish are flowing out of PI. MAC certification cannot survive with 2 or 3 VERY SMALL exporters being the crux of the process. To acheive credibility (to those that don't understand) and to maintain funding it is necessary that they certify the big exporters- along with their massive variety of fish- drug caught or not. SICKENING. IT MAKES ME WANT TO PUKE. To remember that I ever supported and promoted this bunch of yahoos makes my stomach turn.

Here's something to keep in mind about the "certified" wholesalers and retailers. There are 2 types of certification. Certified animals and Certified facilities. It's important to remember that these are 2 very different things. If a company says they are MAC certified, everyone is going to automatically assume that the animals are. People don't educate themselves, as is evident with husbandry issues. They take the easy way. If a company says they are certified (and they are because their facility is certified), then everyone will be fooled intentionally or not to think that the animals coming from that company have been collected and handled in a sustainable manner. The whole way this certification process is set up is ridiculous. I hope people realize it soon and shun it.
 

MaryHM

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I've been very intrigued, although not surprised, with the MAC emails that have been going back and forth in the last several days. Here is how I KNOW that MAC is all about greenwashing and not about truly certifying sustainable industry practices. If MAC wanted to do this thing and do it right, they would not have started in the Philippines. They would have started in Fiji, Tonga, Solomons, etc... where drug use is a non-issue. They would have perfected the certification process there, given a heavy marketing campaign to those regions, and then made some money off of those certifications to fight the real problems in the Philippines. Instead they have chosen to go where the problem is 2nd worse and start a program from scratch there. When things didn't go the way they planned (the thousands of divers they were claiming were trained were NOT, creating a marketable variety of species was not easy, etc...) then they were forced to greenwash in order to secure future funding. To receive all of this funding, you have to show RESULTS. No results after a few years and you aren't going to get funded again. The deadline for actually accomplishing something other than a standards manual is due. Are they going to throw their hands up and say "We failed, please take away our comfy salaries"?? OF COURSE NOT!! They'll just "fudge" the system a little bit and make it appear that certified fish are flowing out of PI. MAC certification cannot survive with 2 or 3 VERY SMALL exporters being the crux of the process. To acheive credibility (to those that don't understand) and to maintain funding it is necessary that they certify the big exporters- along with their massive variety of fish- drug caught or not. SICKENING. IT MAKES ME WANT TO PUKE. To remember that I ever supported and promoted this bunch of yahoos makes my stomach turn.

Here's something to keep in mind about the "certified" wholesalers and retailers. There are 2 types of certification. Certified animals and Certified facilities. It's important to remember that these are 2 very different things. If a company says they are MAC certified, everyone is going to automatically assume that the animals are. People don't educate themselves, as is evident with husbandry issues. They take the easy way. If a company says they are certified (and they are because their facility is certified), then everyone will be fooled intentionally or not to think that the animals coming from that company have been collected and handled in a sustainable manner. The whole way this certification process is set up is ridiculous. I hope people realize it soon and shun it.
 

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