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jamesw

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Most of the hobbyists I have talked to don't seem to understand what certification is or how it works or how it will help them.

I hope MAC can explain in terms they can understand and I intend to help explain it if I can.

Your analogy is a good one too Mary. I'm sure USDA has tests for beef.

Cheers
James
 

clarionreef

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Hey,
If its food we're talking about...absolutely! But bad tropicalfish don't poison people and carry the same reform imperative to shape up or close down. The option to go straight and get certified carries a lot less weight with the average non reading, non involved hobbyist that makes 90% of the industry go round. Cheaper fish looks a lot more attractive to them.
Add to that the explosion in door to door internet sales and the fish are cheaper still...denying much needed revenue to the brick and mortat dealers who could be called upon for some degree of accountability. The trend is dumber and cheaper...not more responsible and better. As a constantly working marinelife dealer, I am delighted when I meet other kind of store. Few and far between unfortunately.
Dependant upon mass acceptance to drive the market towrds sustainability? Not in this product. Thats a few decades of observation and teaching customers...I could be wrong?
Wish I was actually. I think we have to clean up the fish first supply so that the average buyer doesn't have the chance to make the wrong choice.
Steve
 

MaryHM

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James,

Say you were in Michigan and walked into one of the certified shops. That store had a Blue Face Angel for sale and there was a sticker on the tank stating that it was MAC Certified. Would you feel 100% confident that even though that particular species is a cyanide target that because of the sticker it is cyanide free? Especially knowing that there is NO cyanide test in place. If you say yes, I implore you to read the letter from the PI exporter that's on Fenner's site (I mentioned it in my previous post). If you say no, then how can you possibly help explain to hobbyists the benefits of MAC?

It's important that we separate our feelings for saving the reefs and the industry from MAC. They are not one in the same. Not yet. Saying no to MAC does not meaning saying no to reform. Reform is acheivable, just not the way MAC has it set up right now. Like I told someone earlier today, if MAC would get on the right track I would support them with the same energy I did a year ago. Remember the last #reefs presentation on MAC? I was the one that gave it. Why have I done a 180 since then? Because of what I have personally witnessed. There are lots of people who don't understand the inner workings of the industry jumping on the MAC bandwagon because it's the only game in town and they want to feel good. But please point out ONE person that has always been a reform proponent that is supporting MAC 100% and speaking out for them in a positive light. I can name lots of reform proponents who are speaking out against them. Doesn't it strike anyone as odd that the major reformists are all against MAC???? Maybe they see something that people who are outside the industry can't.... God help us if the ignorant, albeit good meaning, people push MAC through in it's current state.

Mary
 

flameangel1

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Steve (cortez)-
Yes, from your standpoint at the divers end-if you , CORL or MAC could train ALL the divers and KEEP them honest-yes- that would be fantastic and I am 100% for that . (how long would that actually take? )

But- how do you keep the all the exporters from collecting the animals from the cheaper divers -thats human nature to want to undersell and it will happen.
If there is NO cyanide test available yet-how do we actually KNOW what we are getting??(how long will it take to get that test, also )

How is the retailer supposed to accomadate MAC's DOA rules ??

But- MAC is hyping to all the hobbyists out there etc and the hobbyists do NOT know the facts behind anything !!!!!!! Those who buy from online, will believe whatever the the person who answers the phone tells them. This is fact. Most of the retailers dont know/care either, but will continue the hype, because of the money issue.

Those of us who really do care- and try to get as many of the real facts as possible- need to fight for every bit of information we can get.
MAC will have to EARN our respect, provide the actual facts, and they have NOT done so yet !!!!
Am I against MAC ?? The "ideas" are great !! Do I believe the hype ? NO !!!
 

jamesw

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The first law of certification is that there can BE no certification process without enforcement.

Cheers
James
 

MaryHM

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James,

But there IS certification!! It's happening right now!! MAC is violating the very law you just cited. But you continue to support them and wish to explain to hobbyists at the presentation how MAC will benefit them. Please, explain this to me. And not in MAC-ese and not in one sentence. :)
 

jamesw

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My statement means exactly what it says - it is objective and is not pro-MAC. If they are doing certification without enforcement - then they are NOT doing certification.

I'm sure we'll find out more on Sunday.

Cheers
James
 
A

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jamesw":qlsk6z7s said:
The first law of certification is that there can BE no certification process without enforcement.

Right. There is no enforcement at this time. Reading Marivi G. Laurel's letter to Paul shows that. The biggest thing MAC gets their panties in a twist about is the mixing of MAC fish with non-MAC fish and this letter has a senior MAC representative encouraging just that.

I want this idea to succeed but in order for that to happen then everyone must be operating on the up and up. It seems to me that MAC has bit off more than they can chew - guilty of expanding too fast - but we'll wait and see.
 

clarionreef

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Judy et al.
What 6 plus 9 is to me is I guess 9 and 6 to another.
Having not tried to actually train the divers properly...how can an industry imagine it doesn't work? ...and then based on this assumption, jump ahead of the training movement idea and go straight to certification in an industry that has long staked its claim in illegal territory. I trust the collectors more than the so called reformers I've known and have always found less resistance from the collectors than from any other "stakeholder". [ just had to use the term Mary]
The failure of training to solve this problem was not the fault of the collectors...it was the fault of bogus training programs and scams beginning with Marcos era programs. Skimming from the eary programs set into motion a few decades of phoney efforts run by ahhh..."non industry people." I know. I lost years dealing with all of them and trying to reconcile them to actually training and not just going for the gold and grant money.
If the trainings are done right....heres a secret just between you and me....the divers beg for the netting material and want to join and teach their friends. This thing spreads and the temptation to backslide goes right out the window. The so called reformers failure to employ the original netsman teams that I trained years ago led those same divers to seek work in other countries where they would be supported for their new skills.
Arabia, Tonga, Palau, Vanuatu and Fiji have all benefited from the divers who converted to nets and made more money by doing so. Many of you are getting fish from them right now. Their sons are also catching with nets! Why go back?
The problem is, the decade of the 90's poor trainings without the netting material ruined the validity of training as an answer in the minds of many.
Training 1,000 more divers will help to infect the others with the desire to convert as well and so long as netting material is available, they'll stay with it. This is the source of my confidence. The absolute knowledge that the divers stick when trained properly! I can't answer for any other training programs, but I can sure answer for mine and want it on tape this time.

This debate has always existed without input from the field. Dozens of collectors around the world will confirm what I say about the effectiveness and addictiveness of good net collecting methodologies. These guys are just not represented in forums and meetings and online...if they were what I propose would not seem a lonely opinion.
The answer to this is not going to be found in overplanning and overanalyzing administrative and security protocols. Its going to be found in field trainings that win the hearts and minds of the divers. When we liberate them from poison fishing and put them to work properly, they'll spread it beyond our estimates. A multiplier effect will kick in as friends and relatives are trained thru social osmosis. We can infect villages with netting skills that go forward, not backward.
Whats anyone got to lose? Let CORL do it!
Steve
 

SPC

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What I don't understand is why we have never seen a MAC representative participate in any of these threads. :?
Steve
 

jamesw

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Steve,

MAC has started at the "top" and is working their way down to the hobbyist level. Give them time. I think we are about to see a lot more from MAC at the hobbyist level in the near future.

Cheers
James
 

clarionreef

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Well,
Instead of employing the conventional wisdom of working village reforms from the bottom up...we see what is something of an inverted pyramid...the top down approach.
The divers will tell you straight out what will work and what they need to do the job, but their contributions will have to wait until the process works its way down I guess.
Once, while training in The Philippines in 1983, an issue of TFH arrived with an editorial by Herbert Axelrod. In it he said he did not think that training the poor Filipino divers would work. I read it to the divers and we had a good laugh. 'What does he think we are, monkeys?" said one in English." The biggest problem has always been to train the industry people in the U.S." I said. "THEN YOU ARE LIKE THE MONKEYS!"He said...extremely pleased with his own joke. Touche ! We are indeed like monkeys sometimes.
Richer people are famous for confusing success in one area with expertise in another. Having the gall to prescribe for social development policy without any real talent or skill in the area is the hallmark of this issues failures.
Obviously, the Village first, bottom up approach is the way to go...boggles the mind to consider otherwise.
Steve
 

MaryHM

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Steve,

MAC doesn't like public debates because they end up looking bad. The notion that they have started at the top is incorrect. MAC had full access to the AMDA message board and did not post one piece of decent information there- even when asked the same question on numerous occasions by different people. We couldn't even get them to admit out loud that they were wrong in saying that "no one" opposed the DOA standard when Elywn Segrest and myself both were extremely vocal about it (and each told we were the "only one" complaining). MAC doesn't want to discuss the issues in depth. They shy away from being pinpointed on issues, and if you do manage to get a couple of them to answer a valid question you get conflicting answers. Sunday should be interesting. I assume it will be the same speech I've heard for the last 3 or so years. But I hope MAC proves me wrong and is open and forthright with answers to the HARD questions- cuz believe me I have them lined up and waiting!!
 

naesco

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:cry: :cry: :cry:
Yes, MAC made mistakes, people got hurt and wasted alot of their lives but lets not throw out the baby with the bath water
 

MaryHM

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Naesco,

Your post makes it seem like we're all harping on something that happened in the past and just can't get over it. MAC is MAKING mistakes. Blatantly. I am reading a confidental letter as I write this that proves MAC is perpetrating a fraud. Hopefully this can be made public within the next week or so. It's coming to a head now because MAC is moving forward with certification without having the proper checks and balances in place to verify it. If MAC doesn't clean up its act now and is allowed to continue to fraudulently certify exporters/importers/retailers, then one of 2 things is going to happen:

1. The world will believe that all of the animals are truly certified and that the industry is now clean. Then cyanide use will be able to continue under the guise of certification- reefs will continue to DIE because of it.

2. MAC will be found out in the next few years and certification will be declared a fraud. Then no one will ever believe in industry reform again.

Any true reformist who is knowledgable knows MAC is dangerous in its current form and that sweeping changes are necessary if reform is to be anything more than an illusion.
 

naesco

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Yes, you are quite right. I was thinking that we should all bury the hatchet and move forward. So much is at stake.
Well Mary your comments are very serious and very disappointing. It must be more than disappointing to all of you like Steve who have spent years on reform.
Let us assume that the allegations against MAC are true. Can't we take steps to change MAC so that it truly represents what most of us want?
Would you please you give us a brief paragraph as to how it exists. Is it elected, by whom etc.
 

MaryHM

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I was involved directly with the board for a couple of years and we never had any formal elections for board positions. Most positions are appointments from various organizations (MASNA, AMDA, etc...). Paul has been the President and Executive Director since the inception. I would recommend that you email Paul and ask him directly how it all works. [email protected] Let us know.
 

JennM

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Hey Steve (Robinson)...

Something I see mentioned often in your posts, is a shortage of netting material for use by trainees. While we are sitting around waiting for MAC to get their spam together, is there anything that others (say, a local reef club) can do to help?

The common sentiment is that MAC is just a top-heavy set of suits with dollars, trying to sugar-coat things without really making a difference... so what can REAL hobbyists and concerned persons do?

ARC is going to be charging dues this year for the first time. With that money we intend to hire guest speakers etc., but I imagine we'll also have some money to donate to various hobby-related causes. We've seen literature from Reefball.org, for example, and might consider donating to them. Is there any such organization in place where clubs or concerned persons could donate money for, or buy netting material to be used to train divers? IMO that would really suit the mission statement of (any) reef clubs, and might possibly do more to change the system FROM WITHIN.

Any thoughts?

Jenn
 

Mike King

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Hi Jenn
Yes there is, Check out the post about The Coalition of Reef Lovers (CORL) in the general discussion forum here on reefs.org. By the way CORL has been working with the Reef Ball foundation for years now and is the source of their coral farming program for reef restoration. For more info check out our website www.corl.org and the talks in the Reefs.org archives. I'm ready to turn down my job offer in American Samoa to start helping with the net training and ecosystem management programs in the Philippines I hadn't planned on starting CORL's PI project for another two years but the need for help in the Philippines is too great and American Samoa has the USA Government to help them out. I'm Ready, Steves ready all CORL needs is the help to get it all going.

Mike
 

jamesw

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Hi Mary,

I read that "confidential letter" on Bob Fenner's site and I think it is bullpuckey. Hearing one exporter complaining that another exporter was "unjustly certified." Gee what a surprise! Aren't they in a competitive business situation? Why are the exporters and wholesalers so quick to decry the "flawed" certification process? It just started this week fercrissakes!

I have read all that crap posted on wetweb by Bob Fenner copied from the AMDA board and it's obvious that all you folks must spend about 50% of your time running around in circles stabbing each-other in the back. It's business right? What else is new. :( It makes me sick to my stomach to read all that "dirty laundry"...

Can you tell that I am extremely displeased with what I have read? In my very humble and honest opinion, you all should seriously rethink the amount of time that you are all putting into this "political intrique" and backstabbing. Couldn't it be better used strengthening your businesses, ensuring quality, etc?

Sincerely,
James Wiseman

The opinions posted in this message are solely my own and do not reflect the editorial policy of this website, reefs.org, or Advanced Aquarist Online Magazine.
 

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