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clarionreef

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Goodness me,
So many years of testing for naught, several years of energy for certification so far for naught,
SOON , I hope , we will be allowed to train and solve the problem. Then and only then...Attempts at creating a testing and a certification industry may resume with all their power struggles, intrigues and funding politics... Like most marinelife dealers, I'd rather just have plain ol netcaught fish myself.
It will be the challenge of CORL to make all the testing and certification obsolete...solving the problem is cheaper then testing laboratories and certification schemes...much cheaper.
You'll see...

PS. This is too obvious to point out, but the worth of all testing and certification schemes is in their honest implementation. The human element will find a way around any security protocols you can think of as they have done for so many years already. Figures lie and liars figure...especially in countries corrupt enough to permit cyanide fishing in the first place. Steve
 

clarionreef

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Smelling like a rose Kalk?
The Philippines stinks of corruption and a tradition of it that will die very slowly. It is a discrace to them to have so many white, Western office people deciding what to do with their countries fishery policy!
If they were more sincere and hardworking, we wouldn't be having these debates. Filipino pride and patriotism should sort these things out and not leave the determination of their destinys to outsiders.
I worked under Marcos and Cory and in the bureaucracy that continued, there wasn't a dimes worth of difference.
Will there be a difference in 2003? For their countries sake, I hope so. Laban pa rin!
Steve
 

dizzy

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Peter ,

I received the papers you sent on cyanide-free net-caught fish and territorial rights use. Thank you. I was a contributor to IMA way back in 86 or so. I still have the IMA publication in the attic somewhere. I guess I did some backsliding myself as I did not renew, but it was not because I felt the IMA was not doing a good job. Peter I appreciate the manner in which you have worked with AMDA and Rick Oellers. I appreciate your attending some of our meetings like the one in Ft. Lauderdale.

I am less of a reformer and more of a freedom lover than many of the rest of you. I am probably less of a hypocrite than some of the others as well. Some of you like Steve, Mary, Peter, Marivi, Josef, and others inspire me. Truth and freedom need not be at odds with reform. Keep fighting the good fight and others will come and stand with you.

Mitch
 

PeterIMA

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Dizzy, Thanks for your comments. To me the issue with the MAC is that they appear to be willing to certify exporters in the Philippines without requiring them to meet the MAC Collection-Fishing-Holding (CFH) standards). Hence, the letter by Marivi Laurel is a complaint (addressed to Paul Holthus) that her company spent two years to upgrade to meet the standards, then MAC went ahead and certified two other companies (HD-Marineworld, and Aquascapes Philippines) without making them fully conform to these standards.When I sent out an email last week, I thought that the MAC had certified an additional 11 exporters without making them meet MAC standards or even having them demonstrate their willingness to change away from selling cyanide-caught fish. Without cyanide testing there is no way of independently confirming that the fish are truly net-caught. Hence, MAC certification may become greenwashing, if MAC certification implies that the fish are net-caught when they are not.
The Philippine Tropical Fish Exporters Association (PFTEA) is resisting the idea of paying the collectors a little more for net-caught fish. Under the Feasability Study last year the four participating companies agreed to pay about 10% more for the fish. I believe that if PFTEA members would do this, that there would suddenly be more net-collectors selling net-caught fish. The reason that there are so few net-collectors now is that there is no economic incentive to doing it the right way. There are at least 1900 collectors trained by IMA and Haribon, and many more who have learned from one another. They may need their skills upgraded and Steve Robinson can help with this. The problem with all of these things (net-training, MAC's CAMP training, other community-based training such as coral farming on TURFs etc) is finding the money to do it. We all need to work together to accomplish this. But first the MAC needs to demonstrate that they intend to do things right and not greenwash the reform movement into oblivion.

Peter Rubec
 

MaryHM

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The following is an email from Andy Bruckner of the US Coral Reef Task Force in response to me asking about mandatory MAC certification for importation. Please note that the issue of VERIFIED cyanide free fish is important to them.


Hi Mary,

You are correct in that the U.S. government can not make it manadatory that
imports/exports of marine ornamentals are MAC certified. This is because MAC is
promoting an independent third party certification.

We have been trying to support MAC, as we do see certification as one possible
solution in a comprehensive package (but not the only solution!). If we were
ever to adopt legislation as drafted several years ago (where all shipments of
critters would have to include a statement that they are cyanide free, and were
harvested from a sustainably managed resource or from an approved captive
breeding program) the MAC certification could be used as a verification of the
requirements of the legislation.
 

PeterIMA

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With regard to Dr. Bruckner's comments about the MAC Certification and the US Coral Reef Task Force (USCRTF), one needs to recognize that the draft legislation from the task force recommended cyanide testing in the United States for marine organisms being imported into the USA. Hence, the USCRTF recognized the need to verify the claims made by MAC certification with an independent test for cyanide. US importing companies could then be prosecuted for false claims (that their were net-caught) associated with the MAC certification.

So, I hope that US and foreign companies who knowingly deal in cyanided fish will join the MAC.

Peter Rubec
 

Jaime Baquero

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Hi all,

Ocean Voice International supports initiatives oriented to protect coral reefs and their inhabitants.

Personally I was part of the first meetings the MAFC, now MAC , had in late 1997. OVI spoke and will continue to speak on behalf of the poor fish collectors in the Philippines. Fisherfolks have been begging for decades to the industry to pay attention to their economic and social needs. Despite the multimillion dollar profits made by the industry over the years, nothing has been done to alleviate the problems "the working force of the trade", the fish collectors are facing.

This negligence has negative impact to each level of the trade and as consequence cyanide is being used. Poor handling techniques and holding facilities at community level are responsible for high mortality rates and poor quality fish being exported.

The situation in the Philippines was very bad almost 20 years ago, today, thousands of fish collectors close to 5,000 feel the industry is not interested in trying to help them. Close to 1,000 colectors learnt how to use nets instead of cyanide, but they do not see any economic incentive to keep using nets.

The Philippines, 7,000 islands
Indonesia 70,000

Thousands of fish collectors spread all over the place. Each one of them has to put rice on the table.

Many papers have been written since 1974 but nothing concrete has happened.

Personally, I see that MAC has potential to do a good job. THIS, in countries where law enforcement exist and willingness of governments are there to protect their natural resources.

This was my personal point of view.

Jaime Baquero
 

dizzy

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Hi Jaime,

It is certainly good to hear from another voice with inside knowledge of the situation in the Philippines. A lot of the figures we are being given don't add up. I don't have the figures handy, but I believe the IMA suggested more like 1900 divers had been net trained. Please correct me if I am wrong Peter. Also you say there are 5000 fish collectors in the PI. If only 1000 are trained to use nets that would suggest 4 out of 5 collectors are using cyanide or other destructive methods to catch fish. I believe when IMA was doing the cyanide testing only around 18% of the fish tested showed signs of cyanide.

Jaime do you believe the fisherfolk will be willing to stop using cyanide if they are paid a little more for net caught fish? Also do you think it will be necessary to have a good cyanide test in place before we can really trust the fact that the fish were net caught? Also have the poor handling techniques and quality of the holding facilities improved much since MAC came into the picture in 1997?

Thanks,
Mitch Gibbs
 

PeterIMA

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Jaime, Good to see you on Reefs.org. I recently published a paper about the history of net-training and the MAC Collection Area Management Plans (CAMP). My estimate was that about 1900 collectors were trained by IMA and Haribon to use nets from 1987 to 2000. The number of collectors is open to debate. A paper publised in 1998 estimated there were 4,000 aquarium fish collectors in the Philippines. The paper I have In Press on CDT testing by IMA for BFAR found that 25% of aquarium fish and 43% of food fish tested (about 10,000 each) from 1996 to 2000 (not the whole datebase that included results for 48,000 tests) were found to have cyanide present. Hence, about half of 4,000 collectors have been trained to use nets, and about 1/4 of the marine aquarium fish were collected with cyanide from 1996 to 2000. This is consistent with the idea that a large number of collectors trained to use nets have gone back to using cyanide, because exporters in the Philippines refused to pay more for net-caught fish. The number of collectors using nets could quickly increase with the right economic incentives. The MAC Certification program may fail, because exporters won't pay 10% more for net-caught fish.

Peter Rubec
 

jamesw

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Jaime may not remember it ( ;) ) but he gave a talk in #reefs almost 3 years ago about net-collector training. For a transcript, see the reefs.org library at:

www.reefs.org/library/

Thanks Jaime!

Sincerely,
James Wiseman
 

Jaime Baquero

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James, thanks for the reminder. The reader will have a very good idea of what the situation was, and is, in many places in the Philippines.

By that time, we were talking about a great project oriented to help the fish collectors. They created an association, PMP (Federation of Fish Collectors of the Philippines), all fish collectors trained by Haribon/OVI were part of this group. Why this didn't work? The main reason was because of lack of support from fish buyers overseas. Why? We found that most of the larger fish importers in the US were very well connected with exporters in the Philippines. Mr. Votava who works with an importer in L.A came to the talk I gave during MACNA X, after my talk, he came to me and said his company would buy all fish from PMP. Of couse I was very happy saying.... finally someone is going to make the difference. I spoke with Meme Purgatorio and told him to get ready for a good order. Two days later I got a call from Mr. Votava saying " I feel very sorry but I spoke to my boss and he said that his company owed his supplier in Manila so much money that he wouldn't dare to buy even a fish from someone else".... end of the dream... the buyer was gone.

Other important reason was that exporters were black listing fishers members of PMP. Guess who had and has money available to loan when a fisherfolk is broken?

Negative reactions from exporters in the Philippines some of which made moves to destroy PMP. The same is happening to Marivi Laurel from Aquarium Habitat.

Negative reactions from importers in the U.S which at the same time are exporters in the Philippines.

etc...etc..etc

Fisherfolks they feel very unhappy because of the manner they have been treated. They are ignored, their concerns are not important to any body. Industry's status quo in the Philippines is unacceptable.


Mitch, the number Peter is giving includes Haribon/OVI - IMA.

If we could offer a fair trade to fish collectors, we wouldn't need to have a CDT. Given the circumstances yes it is a MUST.

I am sure that in isolated communities the handling methods and holding techniques are bad. Up to 6 Yellow Wrasses per( reused over and over and over again) bag. Do you know how much could cost a plastic bag to a fish collector?

In places where MAC is supervising I suspect it is better, no the ideal situation but better. I understand Ferdinand is not working with MAC any longer. He is the kind of person that could make sure that details as good handling and holding are as required by MAC.
If he is gone I'll have doubts about the follow up. I wonder why Ferdinand is gone

:cry:
Real holding facilities at community level do not exist. I have hundreds of slides that show the real situation in the Philippines. I am sure that if I go once again I wouldn't need to take any pictures.

Jaime
 

clarionreef

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Welcome to Reefs.org Jaime!
The more people come online who have been there, the less extreme the truth becomes. Having Jaime contribute makes it a lot easier for me to be understood AND i'M HAPPY FOR THAT!
. Please see him as a valueable resource to set things straight with. Jaime worked with Dr. McAllister and comes from the spirit of the original IMA lineage that didn't sell out on the issue.
I'm still supposed to behave so I'll stop now.
Steve
 

Jaime Baquero

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Steve,

Nice to "meet" you. I haven't met you personally, but I have the feeling that I know you very well. You were part of our regular conversations with Don. He did admire you because all the work done in the Philippines.

Many years of work, two goals. 1) Help to protect coral reefs 2) help fisherfolks and consequently the marine aquarium industry.

To get there : Different programs funded by international government agencies were developed and fish collectors learnt a simple by efficient technique to collect ornamental fish without damaging the coral reefs. The Netsman project was reinforced with other programs " Environmental Education" and "Sustainable Livelihoods" to make sure we were dealing with more than the net training programs, listening and responding to fisherfloks concerns. Since 1988? you, Peter, Vaughn Pratt and Don McAllister began a great work. Many things were accomplished but the problem is still there.

What happened? I know the response is simple. We have been talking about all kind of things CDT, MAC, PTFEA, Chain of Custody, EFM, CFH,HHT Standars, IMA etc etc But no one chapter about the fish collectors, the problem. People they do forget that the fish collectors are the ones spreading cyanide, cyanide doesn't get to the coral reef ecosystem by itself.

What are their economic and social needs? Should the industry in countries where cyanide is used be active and deal with social and economic problems of their basic working force? What would happen if fish collectors in the Philippines decide to go on strike? (that would be good for the reefs). Today, fish collectors in the Philippines are unhappy and demoralized. All the actors working around the problem are making money except the collectors.

It doesn't matter how many millions of dollars "them" will invest doing this and that..... the results won't be there. Reduce the expenses, concentrate the work on the fishers finding solutions to their problems. MAC should stand to defend fish collectors if they want to see concrete and positive results.

Jaime
 

clarionreef

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Jaime,
I couldn't agree more and for one have tried a thousand ways to explain the importance of including and understanding the social equation in all this. Its either over the head of most or the majority of people don't get the connection between the collecting communities and their own fish supply.
The fundamental idea that training must be frontloaded to begin to make real progress has never been well received by the orchestrators of strategies, politics, funding and eco-scams. I don't think its rascism so much as institutional ignorance and an uncompromising focus on white, Western, immediate self interest. The trade has always been a leisure class luxury and people don't generally get into it to help the poor. The sticking point is that the poor are the first in the production assembly line and as such will not deliver the goods nicely without more enlightened approaches to extending justice down the chain of custody.
This topic is a code word for raising prices to the collector and therefore an unpopular one with the merchant class. The idea of giving the collector a fair shake is as unpopular as giving the reefs a break. Including the foxes in discussions about the rights and responsibilities vis a vis the chickens has I'm afraid led to the farmer to side with the foxes.
This is illogical because it offers no field level solutions...only pablum to the ininvolved and "want to be assured fox supporters" that the chickens will receive some lip service.
In fact...the oblivion to fisherfolk is so great that we now have a certification movement that starts at the top [ with the foxes ]and alledgedly and eventually works its way back to the chickens.
The idea that this scheme works is relevant to our cultural assumption that if we demand dolphin safe tuna first, we will get it. Very free market...very American. The flaw in the analogy however is that the same formula will work in the Philippine and Indo chain of marine ornamental fish supply...which it most assuredly will not...especially with the entire [virtually] import and export community dead set against justice to the fisherman and oblivious to the status of coral reefs. Outsider theorists are as a rule are way off target as they try to get a handle on this thing and hard core merchants are none to eager to help them... [and often mislead them] . So, they stumble along, getting it wrong and wonder why they are not perceived as saviours.
"Save the dolphins" is an easy sale and takes no courage or conviction to advance. I mean, whos against dolphins? Especially when dolphin safe tuna cost virtually the same and was mandated by the federal government anyway.
In contrast, the federal govt. clears [certifies as legal] cyanide fish every day at airports near you and has never been a force for intelligent policy. Left to the mercy of the market...we find ourselves non surprisingly, in a trade that has missed the chance to do things painlessly.
The colusion of the groups you mention to ride the trade and feed off it are, I feel, accomplices to the plunder as they perpetuate the status quo and change things much slower than the rate of coral destruction.
Where is the analysis wrong Jaime? I'm only too happy to hand off the microphone to you.
Pointing this all out of course identifies me as a traitor to the business community.
Then again, an impure environmentalist so that collects and ships fish out of fishing villages for a living!
Incompatable? Of course not. Its just what you need to do to see the common ground and suggest a way to solve the problem. Problem is, theres hardly anyone else who also lives in both worlds to unite with. You've been there. You tell em Jaime!
Steve
 

PeterIMA

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Dear Jaime,Steve, and others. I completely agree that the people who have not been heard are the collectors. I also agree that they are being exploited and that they need to start setting the agenda (rather than those white boys in Honolulu as Steve has asserted). Ferdinand Cruz has resigned from the MAC because the collectors were not benefiting from MAC Certification. Until, there are economic incentives to use nets, they will continue to use cyanide for collecting tropical marines. Somehow, this simple fact has not sunk in. I fully expect that we will see big changes in this aspect of the trade in the coming year.
Peter Rubec
 

dizzy

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Peter, Steve, Jamime, rest,

This is turning into an informative thread. I suspect the "well tanned" white boys in Honolulu are tuned in. Identifying problems is always much easier than finding viable solutions. From where I sit the chain of custody is more often chicken-fox-fox-chicken-chicken. Although some of the next to last and last chickens may actually be foxes. (Especially if they are discount e-tailers) Hopefully the first chickens will become better paid while coming at the expense of the next two groups of foxes and not so much at the expense of the last two groups of mostly chickens, with the notable exception of the discount online stores.

MG
 

SPC

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Posted by Cortez Marine:
The sticking point is that the poor are the first in the production assembly line and as such will not deliver the goods nicely without more enlightened approaches to extending justice down the chain of custody.

-The points you guys are making is the exact reason that the Japanese became the leaders in the automotive industry. They adopted the philosophy and management style (offered to the Fords and GM's first, they turned it down and stayed with their military system) that put the assembler at the top of the corporate structure in importance to the company. This management style is now common place throughout all of the industry and in most others.
Steve
 

dizzy

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spc,

I agree that Japanese management style works well for the Japanese auto manufactures. I think that it is imitated but not duplicated by many American companies. Consider the Japanese economy overall. It is not really doing all that well. The countries who exploit their labor force are taking most of the manufacturing jobs. Mostly places like China, Korea, Taiwan, and Mexico. NAFTA and world trade are really hurting our part of the country. Almost monthly we hear of another plant in the region that is closing up shop and moving production over seas.

The online discount stores are hurting the small stores that try and hold the fish and sell a quality product. We talk a lot, but the bottom line is people want stuff cheap and that is not likely to change any time soon.

MG
 

clarionreef

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.......and because the vast majority of the marinelife dealers are numb, out of touch, price driven peddlers, appeals to better practices, better quality and higher ethics have had little chance to survive without subsidy.
This very unfortunate reality allows us to have "environmentalists", semi-environmentalists and office people on regular paychecks [ regardless of productivity] but honest marinelife dealers like Marivi of Habitat [remember Marivi?] being driven out of business along with her sense of fairness and morality.
She didn't buckle under and sell out. She didn't mix cyanide lead -off fish to make sales, she didn't put cyanide fish in row A and net caught fish in row B. She didn't segregate her ethics in a file cabinet with both certified and cyanide in seperate manila folders...she paid more for netcaught fish...AND shes not long for this trade as a result. If this is not the kind of marinelife dealers we want then what the hell kind do we want?

Point men [or women] usually get shot first...the less worthy and the less brave benefit. She thought doing right had a place in the world. She believed the hype and the blueprint for reform. She thought the trade and its "reformers" had more of a heart, more of a sense of conscience and would not leave her hanging out to dry.
Her departure from the scene will not be missed. Doing the right thing has always been a lonely venture in the industry and I fear her passing will be for naught.
If five or 6 dealers respect her for not selling out it will be an indication that we are making progress. May this number grow until it reaches 10!
She will also be used as proof of the folly of being honest on this question. Forgive me. I saw Lord of the Rings last nite and the danger of doing whats right in the world. I needed to believe that Marivi was the ring bearer that would make it where I did not...
MAC must deal straight with CORL and get us on the right path or there will never be peace...that I guanantee.
Steve
 

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