clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Alright Mary,
Tell us. Who won. The game that is.
Steve
Tell us. Who won. The game that is.
Steve
How can you say your fish are "clean" ?
- Thread starter John_Brandt
- Start date
John,
Frankly, this is getting tiring. Where did I say or imply I was uncomfortable?? Uh, here's the quote from my post:
I'll talk to you about my fish all day long. Like I said, I have nothing to hide. Quit grasping for straws and hoping to trip me up. Answer the questions about mortality and variety. John, when you dodge the true issues and worry about things like what Mary Middlebrook specifically does in her one tiny wholesale facility and who spells what name wrong, it makes you look like you're running out of fuel for the Pro-MAC argument and are having to resort to nit-picking less important issues just to distract everyone.
Frankly, this is getting tiring. Where did I say or imply I was uncomfortable?? Uh, here's the quote from my post:
I'll talk to you about my fish all day long. Like I said, I have nothing to hide. Quit grasping for straws and hoping to trip me up. Answer the questions about mortality and variety. John, when you dodge the true issues and worry about things like what Mary Middlebrook specifically does in her one tiny wholesale facility and who spells what name wrong, it makes you look like you're running out of fuel for the Pro-MAC argument and are having to resort to nit-picking less important issues just to distract everyone.
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Gosh Mary,
What if he applied that same keen mind and insight to picking apart the MAC certified dealers and their daily decisions to mix their fish instead of looking for holes in the sincere attempts to do the right thing... by people who did the right thing long before there was a MAC?
The "net caught means nothing if not MAC certified" line sounds more than insulting and offensive...its smacks of needs for control and regulation by a reform NGO that can't get along with its most logical and passionate allies.
If MAC cannot build bridges w/ people giving it their damndest to do what is right, then what kind of allies do they want?
My wife told me..."They want guilty people. Not innocent people. Guilty people need to be saved. You and Mary don't."
But how can you be sure that your fish are really netcaught? They say. [I'm sure they ask this of Quality and the PTFEA also right?]
That is a money question to me an an offensive one. It insinuates that my years of training divers and working closely with locals, including the core of MACs Manila squad, was in error.
There are several SCUBA certification agencies, boxing associations and major religions. They all figure that they are the best and the sun doesn't shine w/out them. I would like them to compete and I would like to choose the best to believe in based on merit, performance and the respect they have earned from other people of record, of passion and proven commitment. MAC should not be so need of control that they alienate other players. This kind of behavior ruins and threatens coalitions and partnerships.
I for one, could not imagine swallowing years and years of sacrifice and doing w/out on this netcaught thing and when finally compromising to begin working "with" MAC, [ not for, get the difference?] find that I am at odds with other people of equal passion on this. I am already ashamed that I do not have some of you back with AMDA. This is a new AMDA we have and it suffers from your absence.
Although a very useful forum, this reefs.org, it is not an organization. A good group can unite seperate achievements and channel them into organizational objectives...for the good and inclusion of all.
Join us if you will. Get in the information loop and become more than lone wolves. Lone wolves die ...well alone. I will be AMDA president for just 7-8 more months.
Do you think for a minute that I would object to your right to air the stongest criticisms?
Do you think that we kiss anyones butt? [ this post alone should dispell that!]
Do you think that we are an uninvolved social club?
Consider this. We just may be the catalyst that unites all sides and get the job done!
I challenge you to join and belong to the most independant and relevant group going forward on this there is. I miss your energy and need it very much. If we don't get things done...don't renew.
What do you have to lose other than the 50 bucks or so it cost to join?
What if he applied that same keen mind and insight to picking apart the MAC certified dealers and their daily decisions to mix their fish instead of looking for holes in the sincere attempts to do the right thing... by people who did the right thing long before there was a MAC?
The "net caught means nothing if not MAC certified" line sounds more than insulting and offensive...its smacks of needs for control and regulation by a reform NGO that can't get along with its most logical and passionate allies.
If MAC cannot build bridges w/ people giving it their damndest to do what is right, then what kind of allies do they want?
My wife told me..."They want guilty people. Not innocent people. Guilty people need to be saved. You and Mary don't."
But how can you be sure that your fish are really netcaught? They say. [I'm sure they ask this of Quality and the PTFEA also right?]
That is a money question to me an an offensive one. It insinuates that my years of training divers and working closely with locals, including the core of MACs Manila squad, was in error.
There are several SCUBA certification agencies, boxing associations and major religions. They all figure that they are the best and the sun doesn't shine w/out them. I would like them to compete and I would like to choose the best to believe in based on merit, performance and the respect they have earned from other people of record, of passion and proven commitment. MAC should not be so need of control that they alienate other players. This kind of behavior ruins and threatens coalitions and partnerships.
I for one, could not imagine swallowing years and years of sacrifice and doing w/out on this netcaught thing and when finally compromising to begin working "with" MAC, [ not for, get the difference?] find that I am at odds with other people of equal passion on this. I am already ashamed that I do not have some of you back with AMDA. This is a new AMDA we have and it suffers from your absence.
Although a very useful forum, this reefs.org, it is not an organization. A good group can unite seperate achievements and channel them into organizational objectives...for the good and inclusion of all.
Join us if you will. Get in the information loop and become more than lone wolves. Lone wolves die ...well alone. I will be AMDA president for just 7-8 more months.
Do you think for a minute that I would object to your right to air the stongest criticisms?
Do you think that we kiss anyones butt? [ this post alone should dispell that!]
Do you think that we are an uninvolved social club?
Consider this. We just may be the catalyst that unites all sides and get the job done!
I challenge you to join and belong to the most independant and relevant group going forward on this there is. I miss your energy and need it very much. If we don't get things done...don't renew.
What do you have to lose other than the 50 bucks or so it cost to join?
Mary come back. Please come back we need you. We need a web goddess. Judy come back too. Jenn, Rover, Jeremy your welcome and wanted too. John we can also use some more algae scrubbers and your welcome too. Kalk we might even let you in if you promise to leave your eel at home.
Naesco,
Why so bummed? Turn that frown upside down, lift up your chin and put on a grin!
Mitch & Steve,
I never say never, but I really can't see myself ever aligning myself with another NGO. I seem to be able to do so much more on my own. I get plenty of disrespect, ridicule, and drama on this board. Why in the world would I need AMDA?? Plus there is someone on that board that I would never serve with, so until he's gone there's definitely no chance.
Why so bummed? Turn that frown upside down, lift up your chin and put on a grin!
Mitch & Steve,
I never say never, but I really can't see myself ever aligning myself with another NGO. I seem to be able to do so much more on my own. I get plenty of disrespect, ridicule, and drama on this board. Why in the world would I need AMDA??
Plus there is someone on that board that I would never serve with, so until he's gone there's definitely no chance.HEY! I'm supposed to be the punching bag on this forum.......Take the shots at meeeee........ ........Flame Angle, Mary Steve, Jennifer, Dizzy and Mitch........When the day finally comes ,that all fish are poison free and collected with no impact on the reefs.......Every store nation wide will sport identical healthy fish which never die and continually have smiles on their faces..............What is it that you people think you will be doing when your businesses are no longer "Better then All your competition? When all fish are 'Certified" and 'Suitable" wont this mean that your product is the same as any other companies? This would also apply to internet companies Flame Angel......
Thats a respectable answer............But Availability is what you dont have today { with two clown triggers and one blue tang } Now I suspect if your like me ,that you dont even care to much for fish........Live rock and Coral is where its at......PLUS WITH CORAL YOU GET TO SPEND MORE QUALITY TIME WITH THOSE FRIENDLY INSPECTORS each Sunday!....... But lack of Availability is what makes collectors go to extremes...........its when there is a lack of availability.....that demand increases the pressure to supply.......therefore its most likely that in the future Utopia,without equal availability to everyone there would be those collectors willing to cheat in order to fill the empty fishtanks.............
Sometimes is isn't about quantity it's about quality. Being an old timer fish hound, i probably have $400 in fish in my tank. Collect the right species and someone will buy it. Why waste time on getting net collected green chromis when you know you are only going to get .10 more per fish. Get that golden angelfish or that genicanthus watanabei or some other fish that while may be rarer but you can guarentee human and correct collection. Some of my friends have dropped $500 on one fish because it is rare and collected properly. That's what at leasts 5 clown triggers or 100 clowns or............
A quality fish deserves a quality price why count the pennies when you can collect the dollars.
A quality fish deserves a quality price why count the pennies when you can collect the dollars.
John Brandt Wrote:
Dear John,
This sounds like a personal attack to me... is that not against the terms of service, or user agreement of reefs.org? And from a MODERATOR at that? Very disappointing. I thought the moderator was supposed to prevent or intervene on such attacks. I can't recall making any personal attacks on you - I've gone out of my way to distinguish from that, and I'm not about to change that, however I find your conduct in this thread very distressing indeed. Almost desparate, in fact. And just what have I done to merit such a personal attack? I take a scrutinizing look at an organization that is wooing me to join it. Wooing to the point of one if its high-ups calling me on the phone one day and investing 2 hours of his time on his dime (or MAC's dime?) to try to win me over. Didn't work. Buyer beware, but prepare to get slammed for it if you don't blindly accept what's put forth? I wouldn't buy a car without checking consumer reports, why should I buy MAC certification without taking a good close look at it? Am I not a "stakeholder"? (MAC seems to love that word...) As a "stakeholder" can I not expect some accountability before I buy? Call it a "test drive"... so far, I don't like the way the car feels on the road, doesn't handle very well. The salesman isn't impressing me much either. I could ask if you purchase only MAC certified fish for your maintenance customers, but that might be construed as a "personal attack" so I won't.
For what it's worth, I do not claim any guarantees either on my website, or in my store, but I do attempt to purchase from sources that I have built up a relationship and a trust with, and who have a solid reputation among their peers. Or are you now calling my suppliers into question? I don't recall naming names (but then, that is not permitted here). Check out the "about us" section of our website - we don't claim anything unrealistic or inaccurate. We don't slam our competition or make accusations of others either. We simply do our BEST. Of course I'm not charging a premium or displaying a fancy logo either. I'm just a little mom and pop retailer doing my best to do right by my customers, and the reefs and the people that feed my livelihood, and trying to shed some light on a somewhat grey situation. Quality speaks for itself. You're right - I don't have an iron-clad guarantee on net-caught, but does MAC? At this point in time, I have great confidence in those whom I'm dealing with now. I'd have no problem with submitting any specimen in my shop for testing, if there was a test that could detect the presence of whatever residue is left after the 'evidence is pissed away'.
If careful cyanide use can produce catches that conform to MAC DOA standards, and health standards, and since MAC doesn't have a CDT in place at this point in time, let's apply the same standard to MAC that you have just attempted to apply to me:
You said it yourself, let's apply it to MAC:
"I'm wondering if you (MAC) are doing a disservice to the industry reform effort by selling fish as "net-caught", when all you can truly base that on is by trust and hopes. Overall health and low mortality may not be enough circumstantial evidence to support the contention of "net-caught", as highly-skilled use of cyanide can probably produce those results. "
Sounds like a double standard to me. You make this accusation against me, but you aren't willing to make the same challenge toward MAC? Why is that? Without checks and balances, MAC certification is based on hopes and trust too, is it not? Or is that somehow, ummm "different"? (And if it is, please explain how it's different... I'm really eager to hear that).
Kalk, the only advantage I'll ever have over the big guys is SERVICE. I'm sure all my esteemed peers in this region endeavour to supply all of their customers with the highest quality of livestock, but at the end of the day, the thing that separates a good store from a great one is SERVICE. If that day comes that all organisms in the trade are humanely and sustainably collected, that will be a happy day indeed. And I'll just keep doing what I'm doing.
Happy Mother's Day to all Moms out there!
Jenn
Dear John,
This sounds like a personal attack to me... is that not against the terms of service, or user agreement of reefs.org? And from a MODERATOR at that? Very disappointing. I thought the moderator was supposed to prevent or intervene on such attacks. I can't recall making any personal attacks on you - I've gone out of my way to distinguish from that, and I'm not about to change that, however I find your conduct in this thread very distressing indeed. Almost desparate, in fact. And just what have I done to merit such a personal attack? I take a scrutinizing look at an organization that is wooing me to join it. Wooing to the point of one if its high-ups calling me on the phone one day and investing 2 hours of his time on his dime (or MAC's dime?) to try to win me over. Didn't work. Buyer beware, but prepare to get slammed for it if you don't blindly accept what's put forth? I wouldn't buy a car without checking consumer reports, why should I buy MAC certification without taking a good close look at it? Am I not a "stakeholder"? (MAC seems to love that word...) As a "stakeholder" can I not expect some accountability before I buy? Call it a "test drive"... so far, I don't like the way the car feels on the road, doesn't handle very well. The salesman isn't impressing me much either. I could ask if you purchase only MAC certified fish for your maintenance customers, but that might be construed as a "personal attack" so I won't.
For what it's worth, I do not claim any guarantees either on my website, or in my store, but I do attempt to purchase from sources that I have built up a relationship and a trust with, and who have a solid reputation among their peers. Or are you now calling my suppliers into question? I don't recall naming names (but then, that is not permitted here). Check out the "about us" section of our website - we don't claim anything unrealistic or inaccurate. We don't slam our competition or make accusations of others either. We simply do our BEST. Of course I'm not charging a premium or displaying a fancy logo either. I'm just a little mom and pop retailer doing my best to do right by my customers, and the reefs and the people that feed my livelihood, and trying to shed some light on a somewhat grey situation. Quality speaks for itself. You're right - I don't have an iron-clad guarantee on net-caught, but does MAC? At this point in time, I have great confidence in those whom I'm dealing with now. I'd have no problem with submitting any specimen in my shop for testing, if there was a test that could detect the presence of whatever residue is left after the 'evidence is pissed away'.
If careful cyanide use can produce catches that conform to MAC DOA standards, and health standards, and since MAC doesn't have a CDT in place at this point in time, let's apply the same standard to MAC that you have just attempted to apply to me:
You said it yourself, let's apply it to MAC:
"I'm wondering if you (MAC) are doing a disservice to the industry reform effort by selling fish as "net-caught", when all you can truly base that on is by trust and hopes. Overall health and low mortality may not be enough circumstantial evidence to support the contention of "net-caught", as highly-skilled use of cyanide can probably produce those results. "
Sounds like a double standard to me. You make this accusation against me, but you aren't willing to make the same challenge toward MAC? Why is that? Without checks and balances, MAC certification is based on hopes and trust too, is it not? Or is that somehow, ummm "different"? (And if it is, please explain how it's different... I'm really eager to hear that).
Kalk, the only advantage I'll ever have over the big guys is SERVICE. I'm sure all my esteemed peers in this region endeavour to supply all of their customers with the highest quality of livestock, but at the end of the day, the thing that separates a good store from a great one is SERVICE. If that day comes that all organisms in the trade are humanely and sustainably collected, that will be a happy day indeed. And I'll just keep doing what I'm doing.
Happy Mother's Day to all Moms out there!
Jenn
Jenn and others,
I do not believe that I am (or did) personally attacking anyone. The issue is one of business statements and position. It's not about you or Mary as a person.
I am going to bring this thread to the attention of forum administrators. Under no circumstances do I wish to engage in personal attacks. If my postings are such I will apologize and modify my ways accordingly. It is also possible that I am being wrongly accused of a personal attack. I will let others judge.
Sincerely,
John Brandt
MASNA
MAC
CMAS-Chicago
I do not believe that I am (or did) personally attacking anyone. The issue is one of business statements and position. It's not about you or Mary as a person.
I am going to bring this thread to the attention of forum administrators. Under no circumstances do I wish to engage in personal attacks. If my postings are such I will apologize and modify my ways accordingly. It is also possible that I am being wrongly accused of a personal attack. I will let others judge.
Sincerely,
John Brandt
MASNA
MAC
CMAS-Chicago
JENN.
EXCELLANT POST ABOVE !!!!!!!!
and I also AGREE with everything you said too !!!!
Service is what distinguishes a good store and the little "Mom and Pops" can do it much better than the big "bottom line" stores or the internet.
I cant tell you how many after and before hours time I put in for/with my customers or all the times spent with e-mails asking for help/advice and no- there is NO pay in this either..
Some of us do it because WE CARE, and that makes the big difference in this or any other business !!!!!!
EXCELLANT POST ABOVE !!!!!!!!
and I also AGREE with everything you said too !!!!
Service is what distinguishes a good store and the little "Mom and Pops" can do it much better than the big "bottom line" stores or the internet.
I cant tell you how many after and before hours time I put in for/with my customers or all the times spent with e-mails asking for help/advice and no- there is NO pay in this either..
Some of us do it because WE CARE, and that makes the big difference in this or any other business !!!!!!
Which is strictly against rdo rules. I informed you of this in my earlier "advice to the moderator" post. When someone specifically pointed out the business statement and position of another company on this board, it turned ugly fast and the rule of "no names" was reiterated. I am sure you had to be informed of this prior to becoming moderator, as it is a real issue with the operators of this board. To specifically start a thread that singles out individual businesses and their policies is against the rules. Like I said, I don't mind, but others do and I don't blame them. And to only single out 2 of the people on here who tout cyanide free fish is highly "fishy" as well..... To me, that is where it seems more like a personal attack than an all encompassing statement.
The thread has already been brought to the staff's attention.
Anyway, back to the original thread...
John, this is now the third time I have asked you to please comment on the availability and mortality rates from my supplier as they pertain to cyanide use. I understand that in all of the confusion the question may have gotten lost.
John, this is now the third time I have asked you to please comment on the availability and mortality rates from my supplier as they pertain to cyanide use. I understand that in all of the confusion the question may have gotten lost.
John, why do you want to continue to be rude to me?
If I specifically allow you to discuss my business, then there's not a problem. There is a thread buried somewhere in here about my policies of not selling to garage operations. I didn't mind commenting on it because like I stated earlier I have nothing to hide. I don't mind discussing MY business. What I'm advising you against however is singling out others as they aren't as accomodating about it as I am. In fact, I don't know many people that would tolerate direct accusations against their livlihood from someone on the outside.
I am asking you to comment on the low availability and mortality rates that come from net caught only suppliers and how this can be used as a tool in determining who is really net caught and who isn't.
As far as the whole "vanilla" thing, here's my beef with MAC:
1. They claim to provide people with cyanide free fish but do not have a CDT in place.
2. They claim to provide people with animals collected from well managed reefs but do not require a resource assessment to be completed prior to certifying an area.
3. They allow MAC certified facilities to possess cyanide caught fish because the supply of MAC certified fish is so low.
Can you argue that any of the above statements are false??
From now on, let's stick to the issues. Please don't take attacks on MAC as attacks on John Brandt, because they aren't. I will admit that I did get a little pissy toward you in this and another post yesterday because of the way you came at Jenn and I in this thread. Tit for tat, my friend. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. And various other interesting cliches!! From now on, if you treat me with respect I will provide you with the same courtesy.
If I specifically allow you to discuss my business, then there's not a problem. There is a thread buried somewhere in here about my policies of not selling to garage operations. I didn't mind commenting on it because like I stated earlier I have nothing to hide. I don't mind discussing MY business. What I'm advising you against however is singling out others as they aren't as accomodating about it as I am. In fact, I don't know many people that would tolerate direct accusations against their livlihood from someone on the outside.
I am asking you to comment on the low availability and mortality rates that come from net caught only suppliers and how this can be used as a tool in determining who is really net caught and who isn't.
As far as the whole "vanilla" thing, here's my beef with MAC:
1. They claim to provide people with cyanide free fish but do not have a CDT in place.
2. They claim to provide people with animals collected from well managed reefs but do not require a resource assessment to be completed prior to certifying an area.
3. They allow MAC certified facilities to possess cyanide caught fish because the supply of MAC certified fish is so low.
Can you argue that any of the above statements are false??
From now on, let's stick to the issues. Please don't take attacks on MAC as attacks on John Brandt, because they aren't. I will admit that I did get a little pissy toward you in this and another post yesterday because of the way you came at Jenn and I in this thread. Tit for tat, my friend. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. And various other interesting cliches!!
From now on, if you treat me with respect I will provide you with the same courtesy.John_Brandt":fxhyxybr said:
Well, you named me in the initial post of the thread and said this to ME. Last time I checked I was still a person:
I can't possibly see how I could have misconstrued this. Since you named me again in your response, you are now denying that you attacked me in the first place. Or are you attacking my business? Since we are basically one and the same (at least in the eyes of the IRS), it makes no difference if you want to argue semantics. You said what you said, now please own it. I even defended myself with tangible proof that you mis-spoke, and I have yet to see a retraction of that. You accused me of making claims that I do not make. You made presumptions about me, my business, and my suppliers and who they are and how they operate, and you have NO firsthand experience or evidence to back it up.
This whole thread wasn't intended to be productive either. It was a pot-shot, and I think you missed your mark. I think I'll sit the rest of this one out too.
Disgusted and disappointed, and not too shy to say so.
Jenn
Sponsor Reefs
We're a FREE website, and we exist because of hobbyists like YOU who help us run this community.
Click here to sponsor $10:
