And when the 'freebee' netting is gone, what then?

[clarionreef]

Sea Maiden,
I was so impressed with Jorges eloquence that I couldn't help but plagerize his phrase.
Jorge, As imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, I thank you and share credit with you.
Whoever throws rocks at people from hiding can expect the same.

Mary,
I am beginning to feel like the ex-husband you can't stand or...live without. Can't live with him.....can't live very well without him...can't shoot him...
The fact that the heads of two NGOs that have controlled this issue for so long live in Hawaii...is hilarious to me. Hawaii is an island of at least 100 English speaking net collectors that secure and use barrier netting most days of the year.
Hiding in plain sight, the answers are so available and obvious that I liken the main NGO attempts at reform to a movement conducted by the 3 stooges. ..Or Mr. Bean.
The inability to secure netting must be either thru extreme dis-interest and obliviousness to the situation, or a desire to not "waste money on netting."
I suspect both.
How then could this little hurdle be overcome about increasing fish supply to loyal, long waiting certified dealers? It has caused frustration and lots of murmering among these faithful ones. Forcing them to rely on cyanide fish to fill their tanks as the trickle of certified fish remain a ...trickle. This increases the destruction of reef habitat...and in a time that we know it is indefensible and unacceptable.
Increases the destruction of reefs...I said, while trainings keep misfiring and the netting material [ the spice] is missing. It is now only in the hands of the rebel reformers.
The institutional reformers are well...not securing the netting and after two years of knowing all about it, have no excuse.
Mary has pointed out that it is a free country and netting can be secured by anyone who wants to buy it. The lack of it therefore in MACs own "trainings" last week speaks volumes....
Then again, I do this work for a living and its simple auto pilot routine. Its routine with Hawaiian collectors as it is with 40 or so Australian collectors.
[ I'd love to add Florida collectors to the list but its hard to seperate all the dopers down there from the few real collectors. What an embarrassment to have them in our own back yard! Any Florida boys who don't juice their angels ...heres your chance to speak up! ]
Certified marinelife dealers still need netcaught fish they can sell and be proud of. A better performance can and should be expected for those we put our trust and faith in.
Steve

 

[jamesw]

Steve,

When you quote someone, it is VERY important to delineate their post from yours.

I can tell where Jorge's quote starts, but then somewhere down the line you take over, and then the whole thing is signed "Steve."

Thanks for your kind attention,

James Wiseman

 

[clarionreef]

James,
I didn't quote Horge, I para-phrased a few words from his more descriptive and well thought out quote.
If you go back to the smoking gun thread Aug. 23, under the conspiracy theories subheading, you will see what I mean.
But I will learn to use the bold type and seperate our verbage next time.
Thanks for drawing more attention to the subject matter.
Sincerely, Steve
PS After all that has been revealed lately, do you have any other comments?

 

[MaryHM]

The inability to secure netting must be either thru extreme dis-interest and obliviousness to the situation, or a desire to not "waste money on netting."
I suspect both.

Or how about this one, Steve. The netting material is not being obtained by the NGO's because then, horror of horrors, the problem might actually get solved!! Then what would these people do for their $100K per year?? Well, we all know they'd go try to "save the world" through some other uneffective means, but doing that takes time and effort. Why jump off the aquarium trade gravy train when it's moving ahead so well?? After witnessing the actions of NGO's closely over the past few years, I have little faith that they are more interested in solving the problem than they are securing their fat paychecks.

 

[horge]

Sardonic Wit,

That's actually a valid issue you've brought up, so I'll essay a response.
Bear with its length, as I want to fairly describe (or rather opine on) the situation and prospects, with necessary generalization.

It would be (sadly) false to say that by the time the hand-nets in question wear out, the collectors would be able to afford purchase of replacements. The current pricing structure (aquarium ornamentals) spractically does not allow that.

It is also (sadly) false to presume that the commerce (RP side) will quickly shift from quantity to quality. This is tragic, because until it does, even large-scale success in promoting netcaught technique will yield little profit to collectors, and then any relief to wild reefs (from the ravages of cyanide collection) may prove transitory.

IF WE TEMPORARILY SET THE ISSUE OF POISONING/LONG-TERM SURVIVAL ASIDE, practiced cyanide collection yields quantity for minimum effort. A conversion to netcaught, particularly if we consier species suitable for barrier-net capture, can be made to produce only slightly less yield. But the effort involved is greater, so there HAS to be an incentive to collectors to stick with it.

The correct practice has to be profitable for it to be self-sustaining (affording own purchase of replacement netting)...and obviously the practitioners have to stick with the program.

There are three obvious incentives and the inevitable deterrent to keep people on the 'path of righteousness':

Conscientious incentive is already in place. I would be careful not to generalize and criticize the visits of foreigners who would encourage and train local collectors towards netcaught practices. These visits can be the icing on the cake of local environmentalist pressure. Filipinos are a very hospitable folk, and the presence of a guest or visitor is one of the surest ways to get us on our best behavior. In this sense, a foreign presence 24/7 is counterproductive (familiarity breeds, and all that) --every year or so is fine, and having competing foreign environmental groups visit different places at different times spreads this wealth of conscientious incentive.

Financial incentive by way of real profit would be nice, but I see no US-side (or even RP wholesaler-side) development of a 'premium' or preference for Philippine net-caught until a fair and reliable certification process is in place. Even then, certification is next to worthless if the merchandise is indistinguishable from non-certified, no? Handling, holding and shipping practices tend to be the (tragically) great equalizer. The stigma of having poisoned the reefs does not seem to be sufficient for the US or EU importer to discriminate, when even clean captures survive poorly (marinated in CN or NH4, the merch behaves ---or ceases all behavior-- somewhat similarly)

Subsidy is a corrupting form of financial incentive because it breeds sloth when aggressive pursuit of product quality needs be inculcated. However, this is practically what's keeping the netcaught movement alive right now --the selfless donation of personal time and resources by trainers, as well as material donations from environmentalists both local and foreign.

Legal deterrence is next to worthless. The Philippines has one of the planet's best legal codes with respect to environmental protection ...ON PAPER. Proper enforcement is not yet up to snuff. We're a fairly young, and a fairly impoverished country, but we're getting there. The ISE CDT facilities already in place are to my mind a sufficient framework to base CN audits on ---we just need a better SOP to mate to them. (Despite the touting of HPL Chromatography, there is no way I can see for BFAR to procure three or four new machines to supplant the ISE-based framework).

Subsidy will have to support the reform movement for three to five years, and the training will have to be practical, holistic and sustained, until the superiority of netcaught merchandise is apparent and respected by the US and EU markets.

Then simple, filthy profit will largely ensure the widespread abandonment of cyanide capture methods in the Philippine ornamental trade. It will also allow the gradual retirement of subsidies.

The nets?
Asking US/EU hobbyists to subsidize netting AND THEN pay a premium for netcaught seems a pretty steep hike. But you gotta do what you gotta do. If the recent net deliveries pay off visibly in terms of environmental dividends, then MAYBE the hidebound traditional sources of eco-grants will be moved to take up subsequent subsidies, and thus take the burden off of the hobbyists.


Ought subsidizers and donors reap some reward for their efforts?
What if they are also engaged in the collection and eximport trade?
So long as they do not seek a monopoly on general netcaught technique, general handling/holding/shipping technique (and obviously, the trained practitioners thereof), they ought to be allowed their fair opportunity to compete as vendors in the marketplace.

Fair, competitive trade is about developing and using your advantages, trade secrets and advanced techniques definitely included.


I hope this has not been entirely useless,
horge

 

[clarionreef]

Pero Ka Horge!
Cyanide supplies per diver are already replaced from within the current price structure! Cyanide is expensive! And a weekly drain on earning capacity, just like gasoline.
This is one of the divers primary reasons for wanting to quit cyanide fishing...not to appease some foreigners need to 'do good' [sometimes].
In fact, the cost of a barrier net...and a hand net are hardly $20. US per year. Thats equal to a mere 4 kilos of cyanide which just gets him thru the month! Cyanide costs are a much greater expense than netting. And if the initial netting is subsidized until the natural, commercial supply line kicks in...its even cheaper.

Another reason to switch to nets is to avoid complications with the law. Bribes, jail time and fines all figure into the replacement costs formula for cyanide as well. Hundreds of divers have already gone to jail all over the country.
Still another motive to convert is to upgrade the resume and make it possible to collect abroad in Saudi, Belize,Vanuatu, Tonga etc.
and make much more money. Dozens of the better trained divers already do this and send money home.
Finally...when properly trained, the boys simply catch more fish and lose less...earning more. Thats the real issue for me but one no one can relate to until they see it and witness it with their own eyes. There are divers scattered about that had a different kind of training with the right netting materials years ago. If you compared their track record with the divers trained WITHOUT nets and netting supplies its a much different picture and the root of much cynicism regarding the effectiveness of nets.
This is the basis of contention with 'competing NGOs.

Divers will change for their own reasons [ immediate Filipino reasons] and the failure to speak to that in training dooms the training.
It will be done right this time and you will have a ringside seat. The lack of commercial Australian divers and genuinely trained Filipinos on this forum allows what I say to be seen as an odd position.
There are dozens of them however, that take this gospel as a matter of fact...because they live it every day!
If what I say is true...then it is also true that we can make great progress in the field without even asking permission from the dealers and the buyers! Divers will change without their blessing or involvement. The divers needs a fair shake and freeing him from expensive, dangerous, exploitive cyanide is a great gift to him.
There is so much to find out beyond the 'conventional wisdom' on this. That great news! The divers life can improve and without permission of the chain of business people from Manila and beyond.
Now...if you want to talk about more money for divers, co-operatives, unions, unity and social development fine...but those need not be held hostage to the collecting issues.
You don't beg for fairness and more money. You do not get what you deserve. ..least of all from most exporters. You negotiate for it!
You unify and consolidate power based on the ability to band together, agree on prices and to stand fast and engage in collective bargaining.
If Polilio Island clown trigger divers want to...they can already change much of their economic situation. It is totally dependant upon their ability to unite and hold the line against getting punked around and cheated on pricing. It is their own dis-unity that keeps them down!
Just like the price of yellow tangs from Hawaii keep them a dirt cheap lost leader item. Yellow tangs are netcaught and worth more money...but they don't get it all for other reasons.
Let the divers get off expensive, illegal cyanide first for their own reasons and then continue to fight for progress afterwards. Fisherman do this all over the world but rarely do they claim...
" If you don't give me a better deal, I'm going to continue to hurt myself, catch worse fish, lose plenty of them, pay more for cyanide, endanger my health and maybe go to jail."

What kind of strategy is that? They need to be free of poison fishing regardless of the ethics of the business chain.
Laban pa rin, Esteban

 

[mkirda]

Here's a question for you all.

How many commercial fish collectors can speak Tagalog?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

Dalaga Mike,
Mahiahin ako.
Pero muraming salamat po!
Esteban

 

[mkirda]

Dalaga Mike,
Mahiahin ako.
Pero muraming salamat po!
Esteban

I think it should be:

"Talaga, Mike
Mahihiyain ako.
Pero maraming salamat po!"

Which translates to:

Really, Mike... I'm shy (or timid). But thank you very much!

But I think it a valid question: How many are there?

A handful?

One?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

Hey,
I was taught by cyanide fisherman! And village Tagalog at that.
Speaking it is much easier then writing it!
Sa an ang asowa mo? Sabe mo Tagalog?
Esteban

 

[mkirda]

Sa an ang asowa mo? Sabe mo Tagalog?
Esteban

asawa...

Of course she understands it and speaks it to some degree.
My wife emigrated as a child, and still speaks it like a child.
I understand quite a bit now, but I really don't speak it well.
But that will change as I study the language a bit more.

I have a feeling that this is one of the reasons why I got so much out of my trip to visit the collectors. Ferdie would translate, but so would Mar. She could also identify times where Ferdie made mistakes, or could shed light on how the collectors attitudes were. A trip where you can comprehend about half of it on your own, accompanied by two translators, you can get a pretty good sense of things.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

To me, this is the key question:

If the proper netting is really available in the Philippines, why would the fishermen in Palauig be known for making their own?

It takes several months to hand-tie a knot every 3/8" and make a barrier net 2.5' high and about 15-18' long. Yet this is what they do because they can't get the sort of netting they want/need...

It boggles my mind- Do you realize how expensive this netting would be if hand-made in the states? It would cost thousands of dollars. Yet a pound of monofiliment here runs around $15, and should make roughly 15 nets. Out of Taiwan, it should be even cheaper... Obviously you still need weights and floats, but these are still cheap. I can't imagine the materials would add up to $20, even here in the US.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

Mike,
Try living in a village for a year where few speak English. Thats the Berlitz fast track course!
I learned all the bad stuff first of course...then fish lingo and water/weather conditions. Diver prices, cyanide prices charged to the divers by their buyers in Manila, transportation costs, practical stuff. When its relevant you learn so much faster.
In the Mexican village where I work...no one speaks English...no one.
So, that was the fast track to rural Spanish. Immersion is what will seperate you from the stateside reality quick and then when you come home...hardly anyone can relate to the things you think the most important.
Those of us who go thru this come back with a need to see "justice for the divers" . An issue at odds with the business culture that wants less for the divers.
The conditions I trained under were different than today. I knew good and well I had to convince them to convert for their own benefit because it was absolutely understood that "market price' was the price regardless of how the fish were collected. Like market price everywhere else! Pegging our success to the whims of the exporter to pay more for good fish...please....that was an impossible notion. Anyone can say they are worth more...but that doesn't secure you more. No..we had no tricks or bonuses to offer. No extra money, no free wet suits and no promise of smiling exporters who would treat you with respect and talk about higher incentives for better decompressed fishes, etc.
Convincing divers to change for their own reasons allowed us progress without depending on outsiders and business people.
Goodness...if you had to wait until you lined up the entire industry, signed em all on, certified them and put a few million in the war chest, then we would never have trained anyone.
Business will turn...for better fish that thrive. This is to be had based on track record, not talk, rhetoric, mission staements and verbage.
We have to get this back to the grass roots and to the village where all the action is. Market appeals and bandwagons PRIOR to demonstrative results are foolhardy, expensive and ineffective.
THE BALANCE OF POWER IS SHIFTING TO THE VILLAGES AS FISH SUPPLY DRIES UP. The divers will get a better deal if they can be organized like fisherman everywhere. This is where some reformers split from the institutional 'reformers'. If you represent divers more and make them the centerpiece of the program...you can change things quickly.
If you allow the exporters to use and outsmart you in order to "get all the stakeholders on board"...you become a front for them and the divers and environmental issues get put on the back burner.
This thing starts in the village...plain and simple.
Steve

 

[mkirda]

Steve,

In my case, you are preaching to the choir... I already understand.

Horge,

This might be the first post of yours where I think I disagree- But not by much... I'm thinking 2-3 years, you are thinking 3-5 years. Ok, I can live with that. A little longer than may be necessary, given a start date of when trainings start, but history will prove who is right.

One other very important step is to get the collectors to actually visit Manila with their fish shipment so that they can see the process and the problems for themselves. And they can learn what needs to be done to fix things. Always a learning process. But the shipping/handling issue is just as important as nets, IMO, if Net-caught fish are to be viewed as a superior product. And one that is worth more.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

Mike,
As the Maytag repairmen of the saltwater trade...we netcaught dealers are not very busy right now.
The summer heat, the heat wave of Europe, the slow season, the good weather in S.E. Asia has allowed a glut of fish to accumulate among exporters around the world.
Regardless of how much anyone believes a fish is worth theoretically, the need to move product and pay rent cannot be ignored.
Does anyone have any idea how many good fish starve in Manila and become unsaleable as a result? Long ago the Chinese merchant class of Manila calculated that it is far better to make something on a lot of fish then watch the ones not sold starve in the tanks.
I have plenty of fish today that I know will not sell this week. Labor day is coming. What do I do?
Answer...sell them cheaper, have sales and ruin their "true value".
Or, sit on em.
This is how fish prices and values drop. There is 'good season' notions of value and there are low season desperate measures.
The luxury to keep prices up comes from a surplus in the bank, a trust fund or the good season.
Steve
ps I wish I was selling to the choir instead of preaching to it.
Thats why I have had so much time this week

 

[horge]

Manong Esteban,
Cyanide is more expensive on paper. When you factor in the duress involved in perpetuating its (mis)use, and the inhumane penalties imposed for abandoning it.... well, in some parts of this country, you learn not to displease those in power.


Brother Mike,
The figure of 3-5 years presumes apathy on the part of US/EU importers, said apathy highlighted in my prior post. But if we can pressure the supply side AND pressure the demand side as well towards giving real preference to netcaught, then it can be done in two years.

Two years max.
But that requires a good tracking system so we can let your importers order with confidence, distinguishing between netcaught and tainted merch.

Sooo....
We need, in proper order:

1.very good training on handling/holding/shipping to go with collection technique, so that the netcaught merch is clearly superior when it lands at LAX, Frankfurt or wherever, and onwards.

2.a reliable tracking (and, if you like, certification) system.

3.constant, if gentle pressure on importers and customers to opt for netcaught.



Juuuuust one importer allied with four clean exporters, and you are a step away from establishing market superiority (particularly in EU, where IMO it's easier to pick on an environmentalist conscience), if not dominance (which is limited by volume of production). The rest can follow or diminish in a discriminating market, losing their collectors to the clean leader....
presuming you can get the US market to discriminate.


Oh well, I'm off to Samar and Bohol.
Have fun.