And when the 'freebee' netting is gone, what then?

[Anonymous]

Well ain't we treating the symptoms and not the disease? Giving nets is fine in the short term if it is to prove the point that netcaught fish are healthier and can provide a better longterm income to collectors. Will the nets prove those points to the collectors? But what's next? Say in 2 years when the nets are worn out, do we do another net fund drive? Are we average shoe shine folk going to have to 'prop-up' the net caught trade forever?

What'cha thinkin? Penny fer yer thoughts.

Don

 

[naesco]

Well ain't we treating the symptoms and not the disease? Giving nets is fine in the short term if it is to prove the point that netcaught fish are healthier and can provide a better longterm income to collectors. Will the nets prove those points to the collectors? But what's next? Say in 2 years when the nets are worn out, do we do another net fund drive? Are we average shoe shine folk going to have to 'prop-up' the net caught trade forever?

What'cha thinkin? Penny fer yer thoughts.

Don

Yes you are right again.
Those of us who are concerned about cyanide and have listened to reformists in industry and those well versed in the use of cyanide in the Philippines and Indonesia have come to the following conclusion.
We have concluded that the only way cyanide use will end in the Philippines and Indonesia in to put an immediate and total embargo on the import of fish from these countries. The consensus is that only than will industry do something about this serious problem that is destroying the reefs and all the critters that live there.
Facing felony indictments under the US Lacey Act, and closure of their primary source of product, industry will be forced to change. Than and only than can we expect an end to this disease which has plagued our hobby for far too long.
Don, an organization is being formed for those who want to stop this cancer in its tracks.
REEForm has called upon industry to provide a plan and timeline to end the use of cyanide. If they fail to act, the only source of fish will be outside of the Philippines and Indonesia

 

[dizzy]

What'cha thinkin? Penny fer yer thoughts.
Don

Don what I'm beginning to think is that your aren't really a humble little shoe shine boy. You seem to be someone with an agenda who is hiding behind a fake name. Wayne Ryan came out of the closet and so should you, so we can take you seriouly. Out of all the people who are posting to these inflamatory and controversial topics you are the only one who is hiding their true identity.

"Let no man who speakes the truth be ashamed to sign his work, hiding is for cowards and liars"
Mitch Gibbs

 

[MaryHM]

The way I see it, we have more than enough netting for the next 2-3 years, possibly more depending on how the trainings go. A net caught exporter association will be started soon- this will be the counterpart to the PTFEA. By the time the netting is gone, this exporter association should be firmly established. It would then be in their best interest to purchase the netting for the collectors and track it publicly like I did. This would both draw more attention to the cause, and force the PTFEA to follow suit or look like a bunch of cyanide dealers. There's a big picture to unfold here. It will be very interesting to see how it develops over the next few years.

 

[clarionreef]

Yes Mitch,
Witless S. could be a missing link here.
But as Horge so eloquently put it...the lack of courage he has shown while throwing pebbles from the shadows is a clear indicator of still another marecon sin cajones.
Wayne...no one has been more critical of the conventional industry than the group now promoting the action agenda in the Philippines. Add to this the Town Hall being hosted at MACNA by AMDA and the Net Supply and Training Fund and you have an plan to support. As to a time table?
Deliver that threat to the cyanide trade, not to the people doing something about it!
Are you hoping to lump the reform wing together with the cyanide trade so that you can justify an "anti industry" doctrine as if it were one and the same and united?
Are you abandoning refrom allies because of the tiff with little Jaime? Are you getting more 'team defensive' than 'philosophically based' on this? More wounded pride than reason? More territorial than true?
Now that the lust for the Order of Canada is exposed as your real motive, are you not in fact a pretend environmental group that cannot work together with real ones?
Wayne, MACANAs coming. Is it your intention to ruin this reformers forum with more internecine warfare?
Perhaps this spate of false reformism has hurt our action oriented agenda and helped to stall for the stutus quo. Perhaps you and your other fellow one man NGO has been doing more harm than good.
We need trainers and field people of real experience, not just arm-chair types. It is illogical to alienate them all?.
Tell me truthfully. Are you hoping that no refrom takes place, that no trainings and net distribution takes place? That the net supply lines are not once and for all made available to the very business men who once provided only cyanide as a methodology?
To abandon all the good that has been put into motion suggests a territorial imperative and wouunded pride as your motivating force.
This is personal pshyco drama, not public virtue. Don't confuse the two as that last tragic figure did.
Sincerely, Steve

 

[Anonymous]

LOL! Steve, it's a good thing the word censors only work for English, eh? (My Spanish ain't so good, but it sure is good enough! Heh, reminds me of a story my grandfather told me of Teddy Roosevelt's visit last century to a mountain town in Puerto Rico named "Maricon"--location of THE best octopus salad I have ever had.)

I think Mary has answered the question quite neatly, with Mitch and Steve calling a spade a spade. Something smells fishy in Denmark.

 

[MaryHM]

REEForm has called upon industry to provide a plan and timeline to end the use of cyanide. If they fail to act, the only source of fish will be outside of the Philippines and Indonesia

Wayne, has Reeform called upon industry or has Wayne Ryan called upon industry? By saying that Reeform has called, you are implying that we might actually have a clue who Reeform is other than you. Been able to find any people to publicly speak out as part of your "organization" yet, or are you still the President, Vice President, Secretary, Treasurer, and membership?

 

[mkirda]

What'cha thinkin? Penny fer yer thoughts.

Don

Don,

The cost to import this was quite high for the average Filipino- about four times their yearly income before taxes. For the next few years, and probably more than once, a given collector will get free netting material.

After a certain point, if this effort is successful, there will be more net collectors than cyanide ones. There will be a market for the nets. At that point, I am hoping that the fish exporters will see their importance and order the netting themselves, then sell it at a reasonable cost to the collectors.

If this doesn't happen, I think I would approach an NGO and see if we couldn't swing a deal where the proper netting is sent over, then sold at cost or cost plus some small percentage to cover administrative work.

I see no problem with selling the netting to collectors assuming that:
1) They get the right netting
2) They are not gouged price-wise.

After the freebie netting is gone, I see no reason why they shouldn't factor this into their cost of doing business. However, this is going to be a few years down the road. In the meantime, it is inexpensive enough to subsidize for now. We are really trying to get them 'over the hump', so to speak...

Anyway, this is my thought. Others may have different opinions.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

Well ain't we treating the symptoms and not the disease? Giving nets is fine in the short term if it is to prove the point that netcaught fish are healthier and can provide a better longterm income to collectors. Will the nets prove those points to the collectors? But what's next? Say in 2 years when the nets are worn out, do we do another net fund drive? Are we average shoe shine folk going to have to 'prop-up' the net caught trade forever?

What'cha thinkin? Penny fer yer thoughts.

Don

Yes you are right again.
Those of us who are concerned about cyanide and have listened to reformists in industry and those well versed in the use of cyanide in the Philippines and Indonesia have come to the following conclusion.
We have concluded that the only way cyanide use will end in the Philippines and Indonesia in to put an immediate and total embargo on the import of fish from these countries. The consensus is that only than will industry do something about this serious problem that is destroying the reefs and all the critters that live there.
Facing felony indictments under the US Lacey Act, and closure of their primary source of product, industry will be forced to change. Than and only than can we expect an end to this disease which has plagued our hobby for far too long.
Don, an organization is being formed for those who want to stop this cancer in its tracks.
REEForm has called upon industry to provide a plan and timeline to end the use of cyanide. If they fail to act, the only source of fish will be outside of the Philippines and Indonesia

Who is we??

 

[clarionreef]

Who is WE?
Why he's the little man behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz...trying vainly to orchestrate the pulleys and levers to cast a larger image.
Last time we saw this kind of illusion was when the USCRTF was made up to be the boogey man and briefly scared the importers into a meeting in L.A. It was one of MACs finer tactical successes. The fear of federal intervention however disappated quickly after that as the MAC hierarchy revealed its profound lack of knowledge about the very industry it hoped to lead to the promised land and after the threat was revealed to be man-made and not an agreed upon policy by the USCRTF.
15 years ago PIJAC, an industry watchdog and lobby group used it in P.R. ad campaigns to scare dealers into joining them. The gist of this is still to be found in their "Swimming with the sharks" in Washington D.C. ads in various aquarium magazines.

If the messages were sincere and more than membership drive tactics, I would take them more seriously.
After so many years on this merry- go- round I have come to believe that if someone in the top two of an aquarium reform NGO doesn't get wet for a living...don't join.
Constructive criticism as well as remedy for this trade is best forged from within its own ranks. These outside wannabie groups don't even know how things work, much less how to fix em.
Steve

 

[naesco]

REEForm has called upon industry to provide a plan and timeline to end the use of cyanide. If they fail to act, the only source of fish will be outside of the Philippines and Indonesia

Wayne, has Reeform called upon industry or has Wayne Ryan called upon industry? By saying that Reeform has called, you are implying that we might actually have a clue who Reeform is other than you. Been able to find any people to publicly speak out as part of your "organization" yet, or are you still the President, Vice President, Secretary, Treasurer, and membership?

All in due course Mary. All in due course.

By the way I have another industry (LFS) type who has now sworn against cyanide. Care to look after him or should I send him to a MAC type?

 

[clarionreef]

Send him to Kyle Wayne,
He's your netcaught guy already up there and no need for an export paper hassle.
Steve

 

[naesco]

Send him to Kyle Wayne,
He's your netcaught guy already up there and no need for an export paper hassle.
Steve

He is not one of us. He is an American LFS. Kyle looks after the Canadian LFS.

 

[MaryHM]

Sure Wayne. PM me his info.

 

[Anonymous]

I ask another honest question about the long term effect of curent reformists' efforts and some of you gave me ideas, some gave me insults...

Mary and Mike gave me well thought through answers. I'm very happy to see that the net material will help set up long term change in the way fish are collected. The nets can be a handup and not just a handout. GREAT!

The best AMDA/Mitch can do is try to slander the questioner? What do you want? My middle initial, home address and phone number? I don't think so. I saw how some of you mocked Naesco even after you got his personal information. My estate is humble and lowly compared to Naesco. Since I don't cash in on the hobby in any way MY ONLY ADJENDA IS THE LONG TERM HEALTH OF THE REEF!

The best AMDA/Steve can do is mispell my name and offer and what I suppose to be insults in a language I don't know. No ideas. Just insults. I'm supposed to respect that? Give thoughtful answers to questions don't slam people. Your behavior discredits the AMDA program.

ReefMaiden, bad game, as a Task Force person you shouldn't be laughing at insults and congratutaing people for defeating the profanity screens.

Now on with the questions...

 

[Anonymous]

More questions...

Do we even need an AMDA net training fund? Would just another net only fund like the one Mary did to send over long nets be just as useful?

If we DO need to pay for a training person, do we really need to send ANY U.S. staff to do the training? Wages, airfare, per diem can and will eat up the budget. Ferdinand is doing training without U.S. involvement right now without pay. Wouldn't it make more sence to send him nets and maybe pay him a living wage to do the training that he is already doing and save all of the overhead?

There. Now I await more ideas and insults...

 

[Anonymous]

Ok, Sardonic. You're right, and I apologize. I shouldn't have laughed at what Steve said. I thought it took cojones to say it, and I was wrong for saying so. I am failing to see where/how I congratulated him, my intention was different, but no matter--reality is perception, yes?

 

[clarionreef]

Don,
Now that we have a person to talk to, things can improve.
There has been a couple of years of explantion, teaching, constructive dialogue and progress before you dropped in. You could easily scroll back and find that your questions have been answered dozens of times.
If you are sincere, and despite your knee jerk defense of some failed dogmas I suspect that you are...you must try to understand that this tape is like and endless loop sometimes and it gets pretty taxing to find the same old slant against reform minded people by armchair critics...who invest so little in the struggle to reform the industry.
It takes a lot of patience to explain...Once again... for example, that there are two fundamental kinds of netting...barrier nets [absent] and the handnetting material [sent over by MSI-Reefcentral] and AMDA.
It has been a many year fight to get this stuff back on track and despite the attempts of some to derail it...it will get back on track.
Why on Earth would AMDA want to do another netting fund if it were the same netting? And its not just the netting anyway. Its the supplies and the logistics of setting the training roadshow in motion.
Defining how to train properly and becoming directly involved in it as witnesses is what difference AMDA brings. There can be not bogus training with our people and cameras embedded in the process.
There has been dozens and dozens of trainings yet we are still on this and still have a frankly lousy selection of netcaught fish to choose from...ruining the drive to get netcaught fish more popular.
Please try to understand the frustration of seeing this movement " sold out" a half a dozen times over the past 20 years and give me a break for hanging in there!
Ferdie is in the middle of things right now and is a mover on many of the things we speak of here. Including the need for barrier netting, outside assistance and peer review by an outside industry reform group...AMDA.
MAC is already there and has been for years. If things were going as well as claimed...little more would be needed. They have chosen to minimize field work as a matter of policy and yet maximize the promotion of its alledged result. They would like a better result...but they cannot figure out for the life of them how to achieve it without involving commecially competent people in field training. Commercial expertise costs more money. Service guys and inept volunteers do not.
Oh what to do...what to do.
If I have mistaken you for being narrowmindly in sinc with PETA [ Pretend Eco Type Association ] I'm sorry. I have been after genuine, quality training in the Philippines for far too long perhaps.
Sincerely, Steve
PS If anyone were to violate the civil rights of a contributor here, I would be the first to speak out...and have. No one is perscuting Naesco. They were understandingly miffed however, at his remarks about putting them out of business...and wondered who he was. A logical thing to do.

 

[MaryHM]

Sardonic,

Steve explained the netting material very well- it's two different types. But why Steve needs to go to the Philippines to conduct trainings was not addressed fully. Here's the problem- there are less than a child's handful of people who know how to do the trainings RIGHT. There are plenty of people who can stand on a beach in a village and read off some paper about what to do, but only a very, very few with the expertise to actually get in the water and show the collectors what to do, observe them doing it, and correcting any problems. No matter what people think/say about Steve, no one denies that he is one of these people. Ferdinand is spread extremely thin right now. Steve needs to go over and help him get more training teams together so progress can move much quicker.

 

[dizzy]

The best AMDA/Mitch can do is try to slander the questioner? What do you want? My middle initial, home address and phone number? I don't think so. I saw how some of you mocked Naesco even after you got his personal information. My estate is humble and lowly compared to Naesco. Since I don't cash in on the hobby in any way MY ONLY ADJENDA IS THE LONG TERM HEALTH OF THE REEF!

Don,
I don't speak for AMDA. I'm not really sure what I said that you interpreted as slander. Your line of questioning stikes me as odd. I saw somewhere that you claim to be a hobbyist, but when I look at all your posts, I don't see one hobbyists type response. Not one. Nothing telling us about your tank and no questions about reefkeeping. Perhaps I missed something, but you seem far more worried about who Imperial is than you do about how to keep your fish and corals happy. You also seem to be supporting Jaime's efforts to defame Ferdie and I just don't see too many average hobbyists getting involved in those sorts of topics. Perhaps you are the humble shoe boy you claim to be. If you are then I appologize.