One area where MAC has gone wrong...

[John_Brandt]

Mary,

MAC Certified Collectors have the proper netting. They get it from the exporters and other sources. MAC is not a netting vendor.

The netting you sent over is to supply (or more specifically to augment, replace or supplement) thousands of fishers who already have nets. The new netting may be preferable or superior to what they already have. There is a strange implied innuendo on this bulletin board that existing fishers (or cyanide fishers) do not use nets. As if we are to believe that they use their bare hands and a squirt bottle.

I support your initiative to get lots of netting to the Philippines that will eventually end up in fishers hands.

I'm not going to play your MAC-bashing games, Mary. Your demand that MAC show you receipts for netting is childish.

 

[clarionreef]

John,
Or should I just use the last name now?
You have the handnetting material because AMDA sent it to you!
Not for training but for graduation AFTER training!
You still use that bird netting I see. The thread size of that stuff is so fine you can poke your finger thru it easily, it tears easily and forces the diver to repair it too often to keep it functional.
It is known as the cheese slicer netting because it can shred the fins of the fish.
The real barrier netting was on the table at MACNAS ROUNDTABLE. You saw it...not to be confused with the netting on the MAC table.
The cheese slicer netting is fine for show and tell to the uninitiated but to professionals...they would laugh at it of course.
Comon John. You know this stuff now.
Steve

 

[MaryHM]

[q]Your demand that MAC show you receipts for netting is childish.[/q]

I'd rather be childish over corrupt and sneaky.

Have a nice day!

 

[John_Brandt]

I watched these fishers use this netting for three days. I looked at every fish they caught. They weren't chopped up at all. More damage can happen in the jar than in the netting it seemed.

AMDA-supplied netting had not gotten to these fishers when I was there. They had (obviously) been making a living using this 'other' netting all along. Newer versions of netting may indeed be preferable, but you have been using the innuendo 'no nets'. Seems you should have been saying 'less preferable nets'.

I have become accustomed to this double-speak from MAC-bashers.

 

[John_Brandt]

John,
Or should I just use the last name now?

Steve,

There seems to be two people living inside your body.


A) Steve - a smart, articulate and personable professional with all the best actions and intentions.

B) Robinson - a mean-spirited, name-calling and bridge-burning person who will say anything (often falsehoods) to bash MAC and any other entity or individual he may choose.

 

[MaryHM]

Hmmm. Interesting. Change "bash" to "protect" and you have the definition of Brandt.

 

[Anonymous]

Um guys- pay attention. Who here has said there are NO nets in the Philippines?? The gripe has been that there isn't enough PROPER netting...

Mary,

I made an off-hand remark - didn't want to start a war. I've been hearing that there wasn't any netting really worth using in the Philippines from several here. On the other hand, I've figured that MAC had something worked out net-wise for the collectors that supply their certified fish.

I've figured that the netting material that your recent drive supplied was going to a broader audience of collectors that are net trained but do not necessarily work within the MAC certification program. I've been under the assumption that the AMDA netting materials was to go to this broader audieence as well.

-Lee

 

[John_Brandt]

Um guys- pay attention. Who here has said there are NO nets in the Philippines?? The gripe has been that there isn't enough PROPER netting.

If the proper (or functional) netting has not not been available in the Philippines until just now...then what has been used to catch all of the net-caught fish? Have Marivi (Aquarium Habitat), MAC Certified and Imperial and any other net-fisher, etc. been using the 'cheese chopper' all along?

Have these fabulous net-caught fish that Mary and Steve and others have been selling been caught in the Philippines with the 'no netting' netting?

Am I confused or unearthing weird logic or what?

 

[clarionreef]

Now John, be nice...
The dam is about to break on the real net supply and the difference is as night is to day.
The discriminating wisdom to know the differnce in materials and products is something reefies do all day long. What appears to be a slight difference to an outsider in say light bulbs may in fact be very significant to people who most understand lighting physics.
All I'm saying is that compared to routine commercial fish collecting methodologies, you are to that ...what a fish keeper is to a reefkeeper.
What you saw John is the best netting that was available at the time and it works its tradgedy most on angels and butterflies, on tangs and larger, stronger fish. Not the little clownfish and beginner stuff from Buhol.
Sincerely, Steve
ps John...some of us have sent netting over there for 15 years now. Its actually a responsibility for any...a.. responsible importer.

 

[MaryHM]

I have never stated that there is NO netting in the Philippines, so please don't try to twist or make up words to put into my mouth, John. I don't think anyone here could argue that there wasn't/isn't a shortage of netting period, and definitely a shortage of the proper netting. Lee, MAC to my knowledge has not done anything to procure netting for "their" collectors. I asked for evidence to prove me wrong and was called childish. It is well known that some exporters sell netting to some collectors. It is also well known that some exporters sell cyanide to collectors. It is also well known that the vast majority of collectors are not anywhere near Manila with access to the netting the exporters are selling. It is also well known that the collectors being trained WERE NOT GIVEN PROPER NETTING TO USE AFTER THE TRAINERS LEFT. Why do you think the collectors from Appari camped out for days at Ferdie's place waiting for the netting to clear customs? Because they wanted the good stuff. They want the proper materials. I can catch fish with a cut up pair of pantyhose wrapped around a coathanger. But I certainly wouldn't call that efficient or proper. The netting that was sent over via my fund was 2.5 miles worth of the proper materials.

An additional note: The vast, vast majority of net caught fish we are able to get from our net caught suppliers are the fish that have always been caught with nets. Gobies, etc... We need proper materials and training to make sure we can get what we need to compete with the cyanide cartel- tangs, angels, etc...

 

[clarionreef]

On top of that Mary,
The most steadfast and resolute net collectors had to weave their own...hour after hour, day by day. In the midst of all the refom NGOs running around all these years, these poor guys made barrier nets that took a month to fashion.
The Taiwan and Japanese netting has long been denied out of;

1] ignorance of it, despite claims to being consultants and experts on the subject

2] Upfront cost. Although dirt cheap when spread out over month after month of use...it still cost the equivalant of 3 kilos of cyanide [ $15.00] to get a 25 foot piece of barrier netting. This times the need for say 100 divers is over a thousand bucks. This has caused the netting budget to have been crossed off in favor of cheap, spider-web netting available in Manila in the past..

Thanks to this years activities from all sides, the issue of proper netting material and its supply is finally getting defined as an issue.
Why just last year it was considered to be overblown by some who now admit its importance. Hey, its progress.

Now, if only the "reformer bashing" would subside.
John, you are at least two people yourself. Don't bait me like that!
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

If the proper (or functional) netting has not not been available in the Philippines until just now...then what has been used to catch all of the net-caught fish? Have Marivi (Aquarium Habitat), MAC Certified and Imperial and any other net-fisher, etc. been using the 'cheese chopper' all along?

Well some of them have been using it! We at Cortez Marine have had several rolls of different mesh sizes for years now. We supply our exporters and our collection stations in Mexico, A responsable importer does such things. Personally, I've never known they're not to be correct netting available as I see it every day and trip over it sometimes, but then again, I've never been to PI to see or not to see it. I have, however, seen the damage the spider silk netting does, its not pretty. Imperil sent us a sample of what they thought the proper netting was, and of course, it was the spider silk. You only know what is available to you. They sincerely thought that was the right stuff, after all, its been used for years! The divers know the difference, they really don't like time topside, mending torn nets and not fishing. The spider silk was tried by some divers in Belize, they laughed at the spider silk, say "whats this?". It last them about 2 days in their situation and is not worth them using as the topside time is far greater then the actual use time. The exporter supplying them took instant notice, reconized the spider silk for what its worth and contacted Steve. Steve told him that Hawaiian divers have had the proper netting all along and that its not hiding anywhere. The Belize divers saw the difference instantly, when they got the proper netting from his Hawqaiin collectors. Yes, fish can definitly be collected with the wrong netting, geez, I catch octpopus in Coke bottles, anything is possiable when thats your only tool at hand.

I thought some one in MAC said these funds complimented MAC's actions, why this now John? I though Steve has been behaving online right now, as per a MAC representitives request request. This seems a little underhanded to me. Ask him to cool his jets and then go for the throat? Come on. I though after MACNA, we'd be able to work together a little better then this. I've extended my hand to MAC in private, and I'll do so hear in public. I don't want to see MAC go away, I do think that their system will help things. I'm not asking for a sing-a-long or anything like that, but I was not expecting any of this. Proper nets, I've said it, Steve, Mary he's only asking for that.

 

[horge]

Woah!!!
Time Out.
So... are we attacking one another now?

Attack the issues, please.
I don't post here as often as some, but I've never seen ANYONE claim there was no netting in the Philippines ---that claim would be ridiculous. Mary's right --there is a shortage of appropriate netting, the sort that tends to retain its shape and withstand traffic, for handnets. If better material for barrier netting is available, why not? So....None of you really disagree with the need to obtain/provide better netting.

Please don't abuse this NON-ISSUE just to flex your built-up animosities. It wastes time and bandwidth. Rather, use the netting developments to overcome any built-up hurt.

Better netting, PROPER training and the beginnings of a workable certification and monitoring schme are here. You want to kill each other over that good news? Sheeeeeeyyyyyiiiii....

MAC isn't going away, nor is AMDA, nor (if we can all get back to real work and real issues) is the trade. So, we should give (and take) relevant, issue-based constructive criticism well.

-----------

John,
Can I get back to the issue this thread was originally devoted to?

Can I request just a rough guesstimate as to the area of the MPA? No pressure man, I just want an idea. I know far more than you might think just how difficult an area estimate can be, but please try. The benefits of a sanctuary are not necessarily limited by relatively small size.

Can you tell ---again just a guesstimate-- the sanctuary's proportion of coral cover vs. sandy substrate? That guardhouse is built on a sandbar, yes?

I'm only asking for a more detailed QUALITATIVE descrip, as in: "Did you see more and/or bigger fish in the sanctuary? Please characterize." Now, I'll be the first to tell people that it's tricky asking for that sort of a characterization of fish density. Pinoy reef fish near collection areas can very be skittish, hiding before you can lay eyes on 'em. The water seemed full of floc too. If you didn't see many/big fish, that's not necessarily a problem. But if you saw more and bigger fish, then yeheyyyy!!! I'll take any good news. Just a longer descrip, John.

I'm requesting a qualitative descrip, and such would still be of value, as long as the whole --qualitative-- truth is presented. I understand that sometimes the whole truth can SOUND like it's full of holes, and become an invitation to misinterpretation, criticism and attack.

I'm not asking so I can find something to pounce on, man.
I'll take hard stats any day, but a more detailed impression from you is more than useful, and I'll fight any misinterpetation.




horge

 

[blue hula3]

John,
Can I get back to the issue this thread was originally devoted to?

Can I request just a rough guesstimate as to the area of the MPA? No pressure man, I just want an idea. I know far more than you might think just how difficult an area estimate can be, but please try. The benefits of a sanctuary are not necessarily limited by relatively small size.

Project Seahorse's files indicate that the Batasan sanctuario is 21 hectares while the Bilangbilangan sanctuario is 10.5 ha.

Can you tell ---again just a guesstimate-- the sanctuary's proportion of coral cover vs. sandy substrate? That guardhouse is built on a sandbar, yes?

Based on 8 transects (1999 and 2000 Project Seahorse / Haribon surveys) on or immediately adjacent to the Batasan sanctuary, 53%of the area is live coral, 42% is dead coral or rubble and 3% is sand.

The Batasan sanctuary is in good nick for the region. Our average value for live coral cover for 28 non-sanctuary sites across the region was 16%. Brutal. I don't know what the habitat quality is like in the CAMP(?) areas as we only sampled inside and immediately adjacent to the sanctuary zones so we wouldn't have "representative" data for the CAMP.

Hope that answers the questions ...

Cheers, Blue Hula

 

[jamesw]

Heck yeah!!!! Now that is what I call a good answer.

Cheers
James

 

[horge]

Salamat, Jessica.

53% cover IS pretty impressive these days.
But, like... why didn'tcha pipe up earlier???


Ah me.. but comparable stats on the CCA (MAC-certified collection area) in Batasan would be sooo nice to have...

 

[blue hula3]

Wa'ay sa payan Horge,

Sorry to have been a bit slow on providing the info. It took me a bit to track down the MPA size data with a Project Seahorse colleague ... just couldn't find it in the masses of CDs chockers with data from my previous life. Happily, the CD search did pitch up the data on coral cover so once I had the other info from Project Seahorse, I could share.

By way of recollection, somewhat clouded by Gilbeys and lime, the sanctuary habitats at Batasan were in better condition than outside ... but that would be a qualitative assessment. :wink:

And yes, it would be good to have data on the CCA areas to support the claims of sustainability. It remains pretty unclear in my mind how sustainability can be assessed in the absence of at least some data. Would make me take a very precautionary approach about the level of fishing that could be encouraged and fishes that could be certified. It is probably one of the reasons that Project Seahorse / Haribon focused on the development of alternative livelihoods that would reduce community reliance on fishing.

Cheers, Blue hula

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Wa'ay sa payan Horge,

Sorry to have been a bit slow on providing the info. It took me a bit to track down the MPA size data with a Project Seahorse colleague ... just couldn't find it in the masses of CDs chockers with data from my previous life. Happily, the CD search did pitch up the data on coral cover so once I had the other info from Project Seahorse, I could share.

By way of recollection, somewhat clouded by Gilbeys and lime, the sanctuary habitats at Batasan were in better condition than outside ... but that would be a qualitative assessment. :wink:

And yes, it would be good to have data on the CCA areas to support the claims of sustainability. It remains pretty unclear in my mind how sustainability can be assessed in the absence of at least some data. Would make me take a very precautionary approach about the level of fishing that could be encouraged and fishes that could be certified. It is probably one of the reasons that Project Seahorse / Haribon focused on the development of alternative livelihoods that would reduce community reliance on fishing.

Cheers, Blue hula

Blue hula,

Just to underline the good work of the Haribon Foundation in the Batasan and Bilangbilangan santuaries.

The Haribon Foundation worked with the fisherfolks to create the marine sanctuary in San Salvador Island. Cyanide was used in this area. This one is 125-ha situated in the western side of the island. By 1989 the coral cover was 19,6% and poor fish population of 312 individuals/500m2 (Christie et al. 1990). Survey readings registered a live coral cover of about 63.60% and regarding the abundance of associated reef fishes in the San Salvador Marine sanctuary, population has escaleted from 312 (1989 survey) to 1,074 ind/500m2 (1999).

San salvador Island Marine Sanctuary was featured in PTV4. As per interview with some of the islanders, a number of foreign visitors are coming to the sanctuary for recreational diving. Fishers have become tour guides. What a nice alternative livelihood. Well done Haribon Foundation!

Jaime

 

[blue hula3]

I'm a stickler for detail Jaime.

The sanctuaries that I am familiar with in Batasan and Bilangbilangan were a joint effort by the communities, Haribon, Project Seahorse and the USAID Coastal Resource Management Program. No solo accomplishment here.

Cheers, Blue hula

 

[dizzy]

I'm a stickler for detail Jaime.
Cheers, Blue hula

Jessica,
There are always going to be people who will try and take credit for the accomplishments of others. I guess the satisfaction of knowing you did the best you could, along with the ability to get a good nights sleep is some reward in and of itself. I'm certain some of the fisher folk you helped appreciate all you have done.
Mitch