One area where MAC has gone wrong...

[Jaime Baquero]

I'm a stickler for detail Jaime.

The sanctuaries that I am familiar with in Batasan and Bilangbilangan were a joint effort by the communities, Haribon, Project Seahorse and the USAID Coastal Resource Management Program. No solo accomplishment here.

Cheers, Blue hula

I agree Jessica. The one in San Salvador was a joint effort by the local government of Masinloc, the Haribon Foundation, the US Peace Corps Volunteers, the University of the Philippines-Marine Science Institute, the Department of Agriculture and of course fisherfolks and the community in general. All pooled actions that paved the way to a community-based resource management project better known as the Marine Conservation Project of San Salvador (MCPSS).

The Haribon Foundation and OVI (1994-1997) had a project, which included San Salvador Island, focused on community organization, environmental education and alternative livelihoods. This project complemented nicely the initiative developed early in 1988 with the creation of the (MCPSS). We are happy to see the results of such a program.

Why I am underlining this? Because readers in this forum have been misinformed about projects implemented in the past. Net training WAS only one of the components of the projects most important was the development of alternative livelihoods to reduce community reliance on fishing.

Now that the reefs in this area have recovered what do you think should be done?

1) re-organize collectors to come back to the fishing activities

2) encourage and promote the alternative livelihoods fishers have discovered

Regards

Jaime

 

[blue hula3]

Jaime,

As I haven't worked on San Salvador nor ever been there, I'm not particularly comfortable wading in with suggestions on what should or should not be done. That's what international consultants are for :wink:

If it is a no-take area, presumably one wouldn't encourage a return to fishing. However, if you are talking about areas adjacent to the sanctuary, in principle I would expect some mix of activities to be appropriate - alternative livelihoods that reduce reliance on fishing and sustainable fishing. But truly, it depends on the scale of recovery, level of continuing pressure / threat, level of compliance ... without first hand knowledge, I wouldn't make any specific recommendations myself.

I am unclear however what the link is to whether or not net training occured in the area as a single activity or one part of a complex of broader strategies. Perhaps the emphasis on net training on this forum reflects the specific interests of those lurking here. Tends to happen. And besides, even if net training was only one part of a broad array of conservation strategies, it is still fair to ask "was the net training successful" and "why or why not". Those are fundamental questions for all projects as progress is evaluated.

By the way, what year was the sanctuary established ?

Blue hula

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Jaime,

As I haven't worked on San Salvador nor ever been there, I'm not particularly comfortable wading in with suggestions on what should or should not be done. That's what international consultants are for :wink:

If it is a no-take area, presumably one wouldn't encourage a return to fishing. However, if you are talking about areas adjacent to the sanctuary, in principle I would expect some mix of activities to be appropriate - alternative livelihoods that reduce reliance on fishing and sustainable fishing. But truly, it depends on the scale of recovery, level of continuing pressure / threat, level of compliance ... without first hand knowledge, I wouldn't make any specific recommendations myself.

I am unclear however what the link is to whether or not net training occured in the area as a single activity or one part of a complex of broader strategies. Perhaps the emphasis on net training on this forum reflects the specific interests of those lurking here. Tends to happen. And besides, even if net training was only one part of a broad array of conservation strategies, it is still fair to ask "was the net training successful" and "why or why not". Those are fundamental questions for all projects as progress is evaluated.

By the way, what year was the sanctuary established ?

Blue hula

Blue hula,

At OVI we are not International Consultants. We are an ENGO that works along with southern ENGOs trying to find solutions to environmental problems. We are non profit organization. Now, it is up to the community and local government of Masinloc to decide what to do.

In San Salvador happened the same that in many other communities where collection of marine ornamental fish was the only activity developed by fisherfolks. Fishers were trained to use nets instead of cyanide, but collectors didn't see any difference, price wise, paid by middlemen/women for their fishes. Fisherfolks were forced by those middlemen/women to buy cyanide. It was simple if you "fisherfolk" do not buy my cyanide I won't buy your fish and as consequence you won't have food on the table. Some collectors kept using nets, others just quit fishing(too dangerous activity for little money and away from thier families).

The use of cyanide in the area decreased as consequence the coral reef and fish populations recovered. I'd suggest to get in contact with Delma from the Haribon Foundation(I'll check for her last name). I know, she can give you a more recent update of the situation in San Salvador.

It is a no-take area and was legalized in JUly 1989 by a municipal ordinance

San Salvador is two kilometers off west of Masinloc in Zambales. Masinloc is about 6-7 hours away from Manila. After collection methods the major problems contributing to unnecessary mortality of ornamental fish were handling and holding. Fish were kept in plastic bags for more than a week in some cases without water changes until the middlewomen showed up to buy the fish.

Jaime

 

[blue hula3]

Jaime,

As I haven't worked on San Salvador nor ever been there, I'm not particularly comfortable wading in with suggestions on what should or should not be done. That's what international consultants are for :wink:

Blue hula,

At OVI we are not International Consultants. We are an ENGO that works along with southern ENGOs trying to find solutions to environmental problems. We are non profit organization. Now, it is up to the community and local government of Masinloc to decide what to do.

Jaime,
I know what Ocean Voice International is (what Canadian marine type doesn't). If you read my post carefully, you'll see that I am taking a crack at all those many armchair scientists, resource managers, sociologist / aid workers who are happy to provide their opinions without ever having been to a place. Their arrogance astonishes me and I guess I am reinforcing what Horge said in terms of people's lack of reference points. While general principles can apply, each situation requires local knowledge and understanding, particularly of the social dynamics. That's why I didn't offer specific suggestions on what should be down next as per your request.

Delma's last name is Buhat, I believe.

You also have me a bit confused. If it is a no-take sanctuary zone, I assume that all the fishing (cyanide or otherwise) is in surrounding areas. Is that correct ?

Also, how do you know whether the increase in fish is due to the decrease in cyanide use, establishment of marine reserve (with spillover) or reduced fishing effort as people left fishing as you suggested?

In my experience, your definition of the "suki" relationship isn't quite as simple as you described it. In Bohol, fishers are also often in debt to the middlemen who have long provided equipment / materials, which makes switching over hard. More over, there may be a debt of gratitude as during "dry" periods, these middlemen may also provide help to the fishermen's family or have paid for medical treatment. These are sometimes long, strong relationships that span generations. It can make severing them difficult not just economically, but socially too.

Nothing is EVER simple in the Philippines.

Cheers, Blue hula

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Jaime,

As I haven't worked on San Salvador nor ever been there, I'm not particularly comfortable wading in with suggestions on what should or should not be done. That's what international consultants are for :wink:

Blue hula,

At OVI we are not International Consultants. We are an ENGO that works along with southern ENGOs trying to find solutions to environmental problems. We are non profit organization. Now, it is up to the community and local government of Masinloc to decide what to do.

Jaime,
I know what Ocean Voice International is (what Canadian marine type doesn't). If you read my post carefully, you'll see that I am taking a crack at all those many armchair scientists, resource managers, sociologist / aid workers who are happy to provide their opinions without ever having been to a place. Their arrogance astonishes me and I guess I am reinforcing what Horge said in terms of people's lack of reference points. While general principles can apply, each situation requires local knowledge and understanding, particularly of the social dynamics. That's why I didn't offer specific suggestions on what should be down next as per your request.

Delma's last name is Buhat, I believe.

You also have me a bit confused. If it is a no-take sanctuary zone, I assume that all the fishing (cyanide or otherwise) is in surrounding areas. Is that correct ?

Also, how do you know whether the increase in fish is due to the decrease in cyanide use, establishment of marine reserve (with spillover) or reduced fishing effort as people left fishing as you suggested?

In my experience, your definition of the "suki" relationship isn't quite as simple as you described it. In Bohol, fishers are also often in debt to the middlemen who have long provided equipment / materials, which makes switching over hard. More over, there may be a debt of gratitude as during "dry" periods, these middlemen may also provide help to the fishermen's family or have paid for medical treatment. These are sometimes long, strong relationships that span generations. It can make severing them difficult not just economically, but socially too.

Nothing is EVER simple in the Philippines.

Cheers, Blue hula

Jessica,

Fishing grounds for collectors in San Salvador are far away from the community. To get the variety and high value fish collectors have to go away from the community. A productive fishing trip can last 4 or more days, of course there is a social impact because of it.

The coral reef and fish population have recovered because a combination of the mentioned factors.

Yes, I know that fisherfolks are in debt to the middlemen/women because of different reasons. Middlemen/women take advantage of fishers vulnerability.

Jaime

 

[John_Brandt]

What you saw John is the best netting that was available at the time and it works its tradgedy most on angels and butterflies, on tangs and larger, stronger fish. Not the little clownfish and beginner stuff from Buhol.

Steve,

The MAC Certified fishers of Bohol use this netting to catch butterflies, angels and tangs (when they can). I doubt that it consistently damages these fish. It would seem that if it did, the middleman would have to reject so many of the fish that the fishers (and he) would go broke.

Little clownfish and 'beginner stuff'? It seems with you that if the fishers aren't catching blue tangs, clown triggers and blueface angels they aren't much worth the time of day. It's almost as if fishers who don't have the Magic Three in abundance in their waters aren't worth caring about. The men at Bohol earn cash catching and selling this net-caught 'beginner stuff'.

 

[John_Brandt]

I have never stated that there is NO netting in the Philippines, so please don't try to twist or make up words to put into my mouth, John.

I wasn't refering to you specifically, Mary. It's Steve that has made the "no netting" comments.

 

[John_Brandt]

If the proper (or functional) netting has not not been available in the Philippines until just now...then what has been used to catch all of the net-caught fish? Have Marivi (Aquarium Habitat), MAC Certified and Imperial and any other net-fisher, etc. been using the 'cheese chopper' all along?

I thought some one in MAC said these funds complimented MAC's actions, why this now John? I though Steve has been behaving online right now, as per a MAC representitives request request. This seems a little underhanded to me. Ask him to cool his jets and then go for the throat? Come on. I though after MACNA, we'd be able to work together a little better then this. I've extended my hand to MAC in private, and I'll do so hear in public. I don't want to see MAC go away, I do think that their system will help things. I'm not asking for a sing-a-long or anything like that, but I was not expecting any of this. Proper nets, I've said it, Steve, Mary he's only asking for that.

Gresham,

I just very recently got those underwater photos of the MAC Certified fishermen at Batasan Island. My comments about them having and using netting were meant to counter earlier comments by Steve that suggest that MAC fishers have no netting or are not provided with netting. My concern is that readers of this forum will think that when Steve says "no netting training by MAC" he means it literally, and that the fishers are netless. It was meant to give graphic proof (hence the photos) that MAC Certified fishers have and use nets. It wasn't meant just to criticize Steve, though he is the one that primarily makes those misleading suggestions.

 

[John_Brandt]

John,
Can I get back to the issue this thread was originally devoted to?

Yes, hang in there Horge. I just got back from two long weekends away from home. I have been mentally reviewing what I saw there for two weeks. I was asked to go to Bohol to be a casual observer, not as a documenter, researcher or marine cartographer.

 

[mkirda]

Of course he has nets. All of the MAC Certified Collectors have nets. Don't believe the Robinson hype about 'no nets'.

John, John, John...

{shaking my head}

This post sucks. Really, really sucks.

Ok. Let me explain again.

There exists netting in the Philippines that is imported from Mainland China. It is of the right mesh size, but the comparison ends there. MAC had a display out at MACNA of a barrier net made from this material. I did a simple poke test, comparing it to a sample of Taiwanese-made barrier netting of comparible mesh size.

A 'poke' in the netting went right straight through the net. The Taiwanese stuff took the beating- I easily applied three-four-five times as much pressure and the netting would not yield. The fact is that the Mainland stuff is crap in comparison.

Yet, this is all that is available in the Philippines. Crappy netting.

Again, I will ask people publicly: If good and proper netting were available, WHY would the fishermen in Palauig resort to hand-tying their own nets?

That alone proves that the proper netting material is NOT AVAILABLE in the Philippines.

It is not a lie. It is the truth, bare and unvarnished.

No one ever said or claimed that there was no nets being sold anywhere.
There are quite a lot of nets being sold, mostly for food fish, and mostly unsuitable for MO species.

Now, the hand netting material we sent was NOT AVAILABLE ANYWHERE. Sure, they used mesh material as we'd use for dive gear bags for hand nets, but these are only good for scooping fish off of barrier nets, while praying that their gills don't get too tangled or mangled.

The Hand Netting material now available has several advantages:
1) Gills and spines will not get caught in the material, eliminating a major source of damage to the fish.
2) It is translucent, enabling the diver to use the handnets for more advanced techniques in fish capture.

See, fish avoid things they can see, just like you and I do. We don't walk into posts, we walk around them. They see a net coming, they swim around it. This really, really important point is so obvious as to be self-evident, yet we have to point it out again and again because people just don't get it.

It is interesting that this post took this turn, highlighting the word "lie" within another word, implying that Steve Robinson has lied about netting material, especially in light of the public admission of David V. of MAC that having the right and proper barrier netting material in the Philippines would be a 'good thing', and that MAC was supportive of it.

I'm left wondering which face is the true face of MAC now, the one that publicly states that the netting fund is welcomed by MAC, or the one that publicly calls Steve a liar.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[John_Brandt]

It's misleading to suggest that there are no nets, when there are nets, but that those nets may be less desirable.

Steve has said that MAC does "no netting" trainings. This suggests that the trainers just sort of motion with their hands in a kind of pantomime of how a fisher would catch fish with a net. Then the fishers go out and catch MAC Certified fish with hands or anything other than nets, because there are "no nets".

 

[mkirda]

Have these fabulous net-caught fish that Mary and Steve and others have been selling been caught in the Philippines with the 'no netting' netting?

Am I confused or unearthing weird logic or what?

No, John, just not listening.

The collectors I spoke with in Palauig hand-tied all their nets.

"Why?" did I hear you ask?

Because the proper netting was not available to purchase anywhere in the Philippines.

Just from a wasted labor perspective, the proper nets would be a godsend for the 38 collectors in Palauig collective.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[John_Brandt]

I'm left wondering which face is the true face of MAC now, the one that publicly states that the netting fund is welcomed by MAC, or the one that publicly calls Steve a liar.

It is just my opinion, but I think MAC would say that both of your statements are true.

 

[Anonymous]

The collectors I spoke with in Palauig hand-tied all their nets.

"Why?" did I hear you ask?

Because the proper netting was not available to purchase anywhere in the Philippines.

Just from a wasted labor perspective, the proper nets would be a godsend for the 38 collectors in Palauig collective.

Mike,

This is a total backpeddle. So they do access to appropriate netting, even if only self made. So the goal of the net fund is to collect netting to save the collectors the work of making it. Fine, that I suppose is a laudable thing. If it encourages net collection I'm all for it.

The overwhelming inference right along has been that the collectors use cyanide because they have no alternative. Ain't true, is it?

Not in MAC's or anyone else's back pocket, just sick of the continuous spin.

-Lee

 

[mkirda]

This is a total backpeddle. So they do access to appropriate netting, even if only self made. So the goal of the net fund is to collect netting to save the collectors the work of making it. Fine, that I suppose is a laudable thing. If it encourages net collection I'm all for it.

The overwhelming inference right along has been that the collectors use cyanide because they have no alternative. Ain't true, is it?

Not in MAC's or anyone else's back pocket, just sick of the continuous spin.

-Lee

Lee,

The reasons for cyanide use are many and complex and vary from village to village.

For many villagers, they have never made a trip to Manila, so they would never be able to buy nets anyway. The middleman would bring whatever they were to use. If that is the juice, then they use the juice. End of story.

In Palauig, the fishermen are lucky because they have someone in the collective who owns a jeepney and can drive to Manila. They have an option not available to every village. They are also somewhat enlightened as their collective leader has been abroad: He was a fish collector in Hawaii for a few years. He knows what to do and how to do it, and has shown the way to the collective. He knows the netting material in the Philippines is crap, and has the expertise in net creation to actually be able to create his own, and has been able to transfer that technology to others in his collective.

You cannot assume that other villages know how to do the same.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

As always, thanks for the insight, Mike.

So maybe that successful collective's model needs broader implementation to make meaningful change in the region? Then aren't we back to a model like MAC with the addition of free or subsidised netting (or classes on how to make nets)?

Thanks,
-Lee

 

[John_Brandt]

For many villagers, they have never made a trip to Manila, so they would never be able to buy nets anyway. The middleman would bring whatever they were to use. If that is the juice, then they use the juice. End of story.

That may be an incomplete story. Cyanide is pretty useless without nets to go with it. Cyanide flushes fish out of hiding where they are then snatched with nets. So, the fishers will need nets whether he uses nets alone or in combination with cyanide. The most productive (putting aside the illegal harm done) middleman would sell netting and cyanide simultaneously.

 

[mkirda]

So, the fishers will need nets whether he uses nets alone or in combination with cyanide. The most productive (putting aside the illegal harm done) middleman would sell netting and cyanide simultaneously.

Sure, John. This is a matter of course.
But 'sleepy' fish don't require any sophisticated net. Any simple hand net would do, including those nice green ones we buy from the pet shop.

However, I daresay that given a choice between a homemade net using the netting that MSI sent over or the green ones we get (Penn Plax maybe?), the true net-caught fisherman would make his own every time. Cyanide fishermen using handnets probably would care less which one they used, once the fish got flushed out of its hiding spot.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

Any nets will capture a doped fish John Brandt, MAC Board of Directors, even you could catch one and you have zero collections experience. Capturing a flailing fish isn't an art and certainly doesn't require the proper mesh size. Geez, at that point, even a t-shirt would net you some fish!!!

 

[clarionreef]

Guys,
The real nets vs. the pretend nets are to fish collectors what 'vice- grips' are to real transmission specialists.
"Tools are tools" to the outsider or to Steve Colbert of the Daily show. ..To Mr. Goodwrench however, to offer a pair of vice grips to a transmission specialist is a joke...right?
The fact that there are divers spending weeks weaving their own netting materials is strong evidence of a dis-connect between village fisherman and those pretending to be their friend.
Steve