One area where MAC has gone wrong...

[Anonymous]

100 half black angels, that sure doesn't sound like collecting to order, thats way more then all the MAC certified facilities could ever handle currently. I thought part of MAC's plan was to have the divers collect to order?

 

[mkirda]

100 half black angels, that sure doesn't sound like collecting to order, thats way more then all the MAC certified facilities could ever handle currently. I thought part of MAC's plan was to have the divers collect to order?

I've also often wondered what they did if no orders came?

Oh, we don't have any orders this week? Ok, let's go fish and send some fish to another non MAC-certified exporter? If so, do these ever get logged and entered into the fish extraction database? Are they tallied? Or are they never counted because they cannot be certified?

John, these are good, honest questions that should be answered. Any chance of getting one from MAC?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

Dear Fisherman,
You vill henceforth collect to order. Zee Americans have decided that it makes sense to them... that you will only find and collect the top 10% of the species of your area. You must ignore zee bread und butter, rice and beans and other stuff that has formed the basis of your livlihood all this time unless specifically requested...
Futhermore, you must collect these preferred fishes within the boundaries of your own depleted areas despite the fact that they are no longer in significant quantities.
Obviously what we ask of you is impossible and we could not do it ourselves and cannot even begin to imagine how you will survive and take care of your families. However...this is a conservation measure for your own good. One day you will thank us.
Salaried people will check up on you from time to time to record your smiles on camera.
Steve
PS. I am not breaking a truce here. The recent scraping of halfblack angels [centropyge vrolicki] off the 'reefs' in great, unwanted numbers betrays, belies and belittles way to much. They will go halfprice or be let go or starve to death in plastic jars. Anyone, I mean anyone in the industry could've advised against the overcollecting of 'junk' species but alas...there is no one in the industry advising on this stuff and the desperation to come up with fish...any fish...drove this affair.
The airfrieght from Buhol to Manila alone makes halfblack angel collecting unwise and they are barely tolerated from Luzon itself. Not even certified exporters can cover for and accept this kind of fake field work for long.
Routine business wisdom prevents such error, but the non representative, insular world of 'the project' allows such things to happen too often.
This kind of thing ruins credibility to professionals and insiders.

The joke around Manila is to join for Public Relations purposes just so long as you don't have to take the fish!

 

[jamesw]

Can you guys clue me in here? I didn't see half-black angels mentioned anywhere in this thread until today.

Cheers
James

 

[clarionreef]

Sorry for the lack of background James,
They are the least popular, plainest, cheapest AND most common of the centropyges in the Philippines. They are an indicator species of sorts; they indicate beginners at work and are generally disdaned by collectors unless taught otherwise.
To get rid of the ones dealers have to take in order to get other stuff, prices drop until they bottom out at .45 ea. on special. The regular price is about .80. To bring in these from an outer island to Manila instantly indicates 'subsidized activity' as no one ever has to pay inter-island airfrieght for the worlds homeliest and cheapest angel.
The poor guys in Buhol were under pressure to come up with fish for the certification movement and were grabbing what there was available. No one ordered them of course.
Its the hand they are delt...a depleted area of greatly diminished diversity. An area that has suffered a half century of dynamite and cyanide damage, of siltation and mangrove destruction, of manta ray killing and sea snake decimating.
To offer alternative livlihood and project to empower village folks is very much needed in this area. Unfortunately, it is so "used" that the best kind of work there would be in mariculture,coral farming, clam farming, algae farming or something involving creating a product instead of extracting it.
A very strange place indeed to launch a tropical fish certification/training project from.
Steve
PS. I used to work in this place and know very well what the situation was 20 years ago. It wasn't so hot back then either.

 

[MaryHM]

Steve,

Maybe clue everyone in a little more specifically. Tell them about how the exporter who wanted to buy MAC certified fish was told "Here you go. We have 100 halfblacks. How many do you want?". When oh when will MAC learn that industry cannot survive on 1/2 blacks and clownfish alone??? I also talked to someone who spent some time in the company of Mr. Vosseler at MACNA. The MAC program isn't learning from their mistakes and correcting them as I had hoped. They are still blindly trudging down the wrong path. It's truly a shame.

 

[mkirda]

Can you guys clue me in here? I didn't see half-black angels mentioned anywhere in this thread until today.

I'm really not certain that they should have been mentioned at all.

The quick and dirty skinny is that a MAC certified collector's group sent a large shipment up to a certain MAC-certified exporter in Manila. Upon opening the boxes, the exporter found a large number of the same species of fish. The variety was three or four species, with over 100 of each.

Steve is really posting the exporter's pain- they are desperately trying to get rid of these fish.

Gresham's point was that the MAC system is not supposed to work this way. The fish should never have been collected in these large numbers. It should be more species, less numbers of each. A small exporter cannot dump 200 of any species into the market. So the fish will likely either be dumped via a fire sale, die in the tanks, or be dumped back into the ocean.

It is a problem and I understand it actually from all sides. I think I feel worse for the collectors than the exporter....

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Can you guys clue me in here? I didn't see half-black angels mentioned anywhere in this thread until today.

I'm really not certain that they should have been mentioned at all.

The quick and dirty skinny is that a MAC certified collector's group sent a large shipment up to a certain MAC-certified exporter in Manila. Upon opening the boxes, the exporter found a large number of the same species of fish. The variety was three or four species, with over 100 of each.

Steve is really posting the exporter's pain- they are desperately trying to get rid of these fish.

Gresham's point was that the MAC system is not supposed to work this way. The fish should never have been collected in these large numbers. It should be more species, less numbers of each. A small exporter cannot dump 200 of any species into the market. So the fish will likely either be dumped via a fire sale, die in the tanks, or be dumped back into the ocean.

It is a problem and I understand it actually from all sides. I think I feel worse for the collectors than the exporter....

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Now, what is the role the Local Government Units should play regarding this overcollection issue? The example of the 100 half-black angels is a sign that there is not real enforcement taking place as Mike stated in a previous post. LGUs are not doing their job. Basic important fisheries laws, as avoiding overcollection of species must be in place and collectors should be forced to comply.

jaime

 

[John_Brandt]

100 half black angels, that sure doesn't sound like collecting to order, thats way more then all the MAC certified facilities could ever handle currently. I thought part of MAC's plan was to have the divers collect to order?

I've also often wondered what they did if no orders came?

Oh, we don't have any orders this week? Ok, let's go fish and send some fish to another non MAC-certified exporter? If so, do these ever get logged and entered into the fish extraction database? Are they tallied? Or are they never counted because they cannot be certified?

John, these are good, honest questions that should be answered. Any chance of getting one from MAC?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

I don't know what happened, or why. I didn't see any half-black angels while I was there. None in the MPA areas either. I may have overlooked them or they may have been in deeper water. Maybe they were from Barangay Tangaran. I don't know, but I'm amazed they could pull together over a hundred of that one. There are multiple buyers of MAC Certified fish in Manila and Cebu. Possibly some buyers didn't buy their order or something. There could be explanations that are reasonable.

 

[mkirda]

Now, what is the role the Local Government Units should play regarding this overcollection issue? The example of the 100 half-black angels is a sign that there is not real enforcement taking place as Mike stated in a previous post. LGUs are not doing their job. Basic important fisheries laws, as avoiding overcollection of species must be in place and collectors should be forced to comply.

jaime

Jaime,

I've made the point repeatedly that the MAC Standards covering many issues are incomplete at best. There has never been any evidence put forth that the LGUs have any sort of monitoring system in place in any MAC-certified collection area. This is an area I have covered in the past as a weakness in the system. I believe it can be overcome (even at the LGU level), but it will take some work and needs to be built into the CAMP.

In a sense, this will be self-correcting via the market. Exporters will rightfully regard future orders with some suspicion. If this happens a couple more times, I daresay that orders will cease. Imperfect, but will work better than forcing them into some sort of quota system or whatnot.

I still do not see the central government taking a leading role on these very localized issues. And that may not be a bad thing for this issue. LGUs can do their job, if it is spelled out in the CAMP process. If not spelled out, then the process itself is flawed, so you cannot blame the LGU.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

I also talked to someone who spent some time in the company of Mr. Vosseler at MACNA. The MAC program isn't learning from their mistakes and correcting them as I had hoped. They are still blindly trudging down the wrong path. It's truly a shame.

Mary,

Now David may have been trying to blow smoke up my ***, but I do think that they are trying to handle things a little better now. Realize that their goal is not the same as yours. David now talks the talk, and I think he gets it now that the newer areas they will concentrate getting on-line will be areas with higher fish diversity. He had told me that they have more areas interested than they have training teams available to work with them. They are rank-ordering these areas based on a number of criteria, and one of the most important was having higher fish species diversity. I'd call that a victory for you and Steve and the industry as a whole.

As I said though, the proof will be in the pudding: Camotes will not yield but a few more species and not in significant numbers. The next two or three areas brought on-line will either prove or disprove this. The onus is on MAC and I honestly hope they will pull through here.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[MaryHM]

A MAC lackey blowing smoke up your a$$?? Unfathomable!!! I'm truly shocked that Vosseler would give you information that makes it look as though MAC is on the right track. That aside, what I was referring to was a conversation that occurred at MACNA between David and a friend of mine. (Careful MAC, you never know who is talking to me! ). Admittedly I shouldn't have brought it up since I'm not at liberty to give details publicly. I was just sickened to hear more of the same old, same old coming out of the MAC camp. At least they get points for being consistent.

There are multiple buyers of MAC Certified fish in Manila and Cebu. Possibly some buyers didn't buy their order or something

John, aren't their stipulations in the standards about certified buyers refusing shipments??? Not saying that that is what happened here, but was just curious about your possible explanation of the situation.

 

[John_Brandt]

The buyers shouldn't refuse an order that they placed. Before speculating on why and what, it would be best to know what actually happened. I'm still amazed that they rounded up that many.

 

[clarionreef]

John et al.
There were no orders made for the abundant halfblack.
As such there was no refusal of order.
Centropyge Vrolicki is quite abundant in the region...[ and every other region.] However, they are generally a little deeper than snorkle range.
People were desperate to get fish to go with all the hubbub... a hubbub forging ahead without fish supply, thats all. To the amatuer and the uninitiated, fish are fish.
To make money, empower women, generate science, feed families, fulfill foreign notions of win-win multi-stakholder nirvana and make everyone happy, there must be something to sell. Someone actually has to produce something besides paper at some point.
There is very little to sell as the natural wealth of this region has generally been cashed in in such a way that it has been slow to recover...if it is recovering.
The indicator of 'end-gaming' in trops is when you scrape the bottom of the barrel and come up with vrolickis. But everybody in the producer side of the industry already knows this.
Steve

ps. And yes, I to refused them also. I already have a number that was forced on me and they just sit here unless I give em away at cost.

 

[blue hula3]

I don't know whether to laugh or cry re: collecting to order. As a method to "back up" efforts to reduce overexploitation on certified collection areas, it doesn't appear to be very effective.

Either, as John says, exporters aren't honouring apparently inappropriate orders (so it falls down)

or, as Steve indicates, there were no orders so local staff have failed to impress upon collectors the importance of only collecting to order (could it be that it's not a workable approach in poverty stricken, highly depleted areas????)

And then there remains the whole question of how collecting to order equates to ensuring sustainable levels of exploitation anyway (which I raised in my ill-fated and as yet unanswered "if I were an auditor" thread). I keep wondering how market demand correlates positively to wild abundance: i.e. demand (orders) are greatest for those species that are most abundant. Isn't it usually the other way around ? Where is the exporter who says, "no, we better not order any Piscus declinicus 'cause, hey, its populations are getting hammered" ? or, as discussed here, the exporter who says "let's order heaps of Piscus plentifulus (read C. vrolicki) because it's, well, plentiful".

Once again, it would be great to know what actual steps MAC has taken to ensure that collection levels are truly sustainable then pushing an apparently ineffectual collection to order policy.

To recap:

(1) have resource assessments (in situ surveys of fish abundance) been completed in the Batasan collection area?
(2) are catch and effort being monitored in the Batasan collection area?
(3) has the adequacy of a 21 ha marine sanctuary been assessed given the as yet unknown size of the Batasan collection area ?
(4) has there been an assessment of how many fishers are earning their livelihood on this collection area and where they are from (and where else they fish)?

Anyone at MAC ?

Cheers, Jessica

 

[clarionreef]

Jessie,
Buyers of tropicals base their selections and choices on money making and sales for this week. Living in the short-term on a permanant basis is the very definition of sales.
The rarer the fish, the more it is desired. The more common and easy to get, the less the price and demand. The market has no education or conscience on these matters which is the point and responsibility of government and NGO intervention. If the government and the NGO behave as market people then there is only the law of the market that will survive...scraping and cherry picking what it need and moving on.
The market has product objectives...not social ones. Relying on market for everything is the recipe for commercial extinction of any desireable species. The market has worked its magic in the Buhol/Camotes/Cebu region for many years. The eco-sabatoge of the Danajon Bank is a tribute to this doctrine.
Collecting to order is even more insidious than the normal freemarket system in some ways. It insures an amplified scrape for cherry and coveted species of course and aims to clean them out as fast as possible.
Once cleaned out of the good fish, the scrape intensifies for whats left...and that is what will happen every time. 'Collecting to order' is what can happen for collector /exporters of areas containing 'normal' , varied and healthy fishery stocks. It is not what can work for poor fisherman in outlying villages that by definition scrape out a living in the tradgedy of the commons where only common fish are left. Asking them to ignore half the fish they find is an exercise in restraint that few Westerners would accept.
How noble it would be of them to ignore the welfare of their families to live up to this new strategy invented by uninvolved people from afar.
Collect to order? No one could do themselves what they ask of these people.
Steve

 

[blue hula3]

Sounds like collecting to order will eventually drive even healthy areas into decline ...

So what is the rationale behind this as a strategy for reducing overexploittion ?

Jessica

 

[mkirda]

So what is the rationale behind this as a strategy for reducing overexploitation ?

Jessica

Jessica,

From what I understand, the idea was that the exporters would place a standing order from the collectors. This way, they wouldn't get species they didn't want, or too many of any given species. The idea being that the collectors would listen, then collect and ship the appropriate sorts of fish to the exporter in the appropriate numbers.

Hopefully John Brandt can flesh this out better.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[PeterIMA]

Collecting to order actually should reduce the number of specimens being collected, since only those on the order lists are collected. Based on the Feasability Study done by Ferdinand Cruz for the MAC, I believe it can work. Ferdinand required that the participating exporters ordered "bread and butter" species (e.g., those which were abundant) as well as a smaller proportion of "high end" species (e.g., in demand and less common).

How the MAC does it in Batasan and Clarin I don't know. The half black angelfish situation implies that the system is not being applied properly in these areas off Bohol.

Peter

 

[blue hula3]

And it assumes that "bread and butter" from a market point of view are indeed the most abundant.

I looked at the demand for pomacentrids (damsels and clowns) at the level of genus, based on the Global Marine Aquarium database. The top 4 groups in terms of demand (this assumes that the relative proportions of fish are approximately correct) are Chrysipterus spp. (26% of pomacentrids traded), Dascyllus spp. (22%), Amphiprion spp. (22%) and Chromis spp. (16%). These 4 groups account for 85% of the damsels and clowns traded as per market "demand".

So, then I asked what would happen if Australia were collecting to this "order". Looking at data from the Great Barrier Reef in terms of wild abundance, meeting this demand would place hugely disproportionate pressure on these 4 groups as, combined, they only represent 14% of the damsels and clowns on the reef despite representing 85% of the international trade for this group.

I realise there is the whole question of turnover and how fast these fish replace themselves relative to capture rates ... but I'd be amazed if such disproportionate pressure didn't eventually lead to changes in species composition on the reefs.

So I would argue that Ferdie's feasibility study is essential but that fishers must collect according to wild abundance AND market demand as I'm not sure how often these are the equivalent.

Resource assessments of wild populations and ongoing monitoring seem pretty key.

Any marketing guru out there that knows how to turn half-blacks into Nemo equivalents?

Cheers, Jessica