Is it time to blow the whistle on industry?

[MaryHM]

Most of the $3,000.00 odd dollars raised came from hobbyists, John

About 30% of the money came from industry. Which is astounding, as industry was not targeted by this fund at all. This fund was solely advertised on hobbyist boards. So please don't imply that industry didn't support the fund since most of the money came from hobbyists. It's like holding a "Save the Whales" fundraiser in California and then chiding Arkansas for not pitching in.

 

[naesco]

Most of the $3,000.00 odd dollars raised came from hobbyists, John

About 30% of the money came from industry. Which is astounding, as industry was not targeted by this fund at all. This fund was solely advertised on hobbyist boards. So please don't imply that industry didn't support the fund since most of the money came from hobbyists. It's like holding a "Save the Whales" fundraiser in California and then chiding Arkansas for not pitching in.

$1,000.00 from industry and you are proud of it? :wink:
I did not imply that industry did not support the fund.
John implied it was an industry fund and we now know the truth. Thank you .

 

[MaryHM]

Wayne,

Yes, I am proud of it, since industry wasn't even contacted to be a part of the net fund.

John didn't imply that it was an "industry fund". He correctly stated that it was organized by me- last time I checked I was industry

 

[naesco]

John thank you for the list of industry names.

You know I support MAC but MAC certification has nothing to do with the cyanide import.
Have these names on the list agree to meet with reform to discuss adoption of the Manifesto.

This Manifesto might include the following
1. Incorporation of a CDT by industry and a timeline for its implementation.
2. An Unsuitable Species List (USL) and a timeline for its review and adoption by industry.
3. Training; a plan, people, a timeline and a budget funded by industry.

How could anyone possibly not support the above?

 

[MaryHM]

In case you missed this question, Wayne...

Explain your embargo, Wayne. In detail. Exactly how you have planned for it to work. Step by step.

 

[naesco]

In case you missed this question, Wayne...

Explain your embargo, Wayne. In detail. Exactly how you have planned for it to work. Step by step.

Sorry, I am working a couple of boards. telephone calls, email. I had no idea Here is the answer I posted earlier to Rovers question.


Rover has added some questions to this preliminary Manifesto and the next steps that might ocurr.
I don't have all the answers but here is some food for thought.
The answers to questions 1-3 implementation and enforcement:
If the Manifesto was adopted by the representative present it would contain undertakings by industy to adopt the CDT with a time certain and pay for the random testing at their facilities by independent professional scientists.
I would expect that industry would immediately agree to say 10 of the 45 species of coral and fish on the proposed USL as a show of good faith and the rest would be subject to negotiations. Perhaps the opinions of outside experts like, Borneman, Michael and Fenner might be sought.
A training fund and budget would set up funded by industry with a reasonable timeline. We know there is a wealth of people willing and anxious to help.
The Participants.
1. People like myself who are prepared to blow the whistle on industry including experts in training, cyanide and the packaging/handling of fish and coral would represent reform.
2. Representatives from the appropriate Ministry in the Phillipines and Indonesia. The reps would have the political clout to go back to their respective govenments and tell them that their Marine Industy will be closed down unless certain steps are taken by them.
3. Representative from the US Government who are prepared to take whatever steps are necessary to close the industry down in the event that industry fails to act on the committments they will make.
4. All the major importers/wholesalers or their agreed representatives. They would have the authority to sign the committments to be made by industry. They would explain to their 'members' the consequences of failure to adopt and follow through with their committments. They would fund all reforms.
5. Members of the public including those who may be adverse to our hobby so that they can see reform happen or take appropriate steps if it fails.
6. Observers" MAC, MASNA, AMDA come to mind.

If industry fails to adopt the Manifesto, Reform would ask the government representative to ask for a total embargo of all fish and coral from the Philippines and Indonesia where the use of cyanide is rampant.
If the government representative neglected to or refused to seek said embargo, appropriate steps would be taken to place the issue of importing cyanide poisoned nemos and dorys before the general public.

I am very interested in everyones advice and opinions.

 

[MaryHM]

So basically it is your intention to threaten the industry into compliance? Wayne, that will never work. The quickest way to lose someone's support for what you are doing is to threaten them. The only thing I can see coming out of your "threaten them into submission" plan is the biggest bunch of psuedo-reform efforts you've ever seen. This is the most backwards approach to this problem that I can imagine. I have told you this personally and I will state it here publicly. This approach will severely undermine and possibly destroy the current true reform efforts that are taking place right now. I hope you will rethink your plan of action.

 

[naesco]

I disagree.
They are businessman. They don't want their source of supply to be cut off any more than the P/I industry wants its market closed. They will sit down and negotiate in good faith.
Reform will too. We will consider a reasonable timeline, reasonable USL numbers and a reasonable transition period to allow the necessary training, CDT implementation to happen.

 

[John_Brandt]

You know I support MAC but MAC certification has nothing to do with the cyanide import.

MAC Certification has everything to do with "the cyanide import". MAC Certified collectors and their collectors associations are trained to use nets to collect fish. When MAC Certified fish are imported, it is a cyanide-free import.

Have these names on the list agree to meet with reform to discuss adoption of the Manifesto.

They have agreed to become MAC Certified. As far as I know they have not been informed of your "manifesto", and therefore have not agreed to meet to discuss it. Do you mind if I call your "manifesto" "Wayne's World" ?

This Manifesto might include the following
1. Incorporation of a CDT by industry and a timeline for its implementation.
2. An Unsuitable Species List (USL) and a timeline for its review and adoption by industry.
3. Training; a plan, people, a timeline and a budget funded by industry.

How could anyone possibly not support the above?

MAC Certification already covers, or will cover, these concerns. You will find information on the CDT and its projected timeline in the 2 MAC CDT memos that I posted in this forum.

MAC will address the issue of certifying "unsuitable species" in the future, no timeline has been announced yet. Signers of the commitment already know that there will be the creation of a MAC "USL".

MAC net-training is occuring as we speak. It is slower than many would wish for, but circumstances combined with human resources dictate how quickly anything can be accomplished by any organization. It is critical to the mission of MAC that "backsliding" does not occur now, or anytime in the future. Training and certification of collecting areas cannot proceed faster than MAC's ability to control the adherence to the standards. Presently MAC's budget is funded by grants and some donations. In the future MAC will be funded by industry itself.

In many ways you seem to be trying to reinvent the wheel with your "Wayne's World" manifesto.

 

[Anonymous]

Hey, I'm working on my own "Wayne's World Manefesto"!
Let the Waynes of the World unite to defeat cyanide!

Sincerely,
Wayne Lee Morey, II

 

[mkirda]

Of course hobbyists have a right to be informed. But you are not informing them. You are singularly trying to organize a radical take-no-prisoners approach to reform that is simply misdirected.

Hear-hear...

Wayne,

You have to understand something. From where I am sitting, your approach is way too radical. This is tantamount to PETA protestors throwing paint on fur-wearing individuals, or abortion foes murdering doctors who perform them, or people who spike trees in an attempt to hurt loggers...

No person in their right mind would support this: It is way too radical.

The same is true with your approach.

Your passion is admirable. You need to find a better way to channel it.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[MaryHM]

MAC Certification already covers, or will cover, these concerns.

Wayne, we need to concentrate on fixing the MAC that we have- making sure they are held accountable and responsible- and supporting the current reform efforts by people such as Ferdinand Cruz. Not create a new "MAC" to even further distract us from the goal of acheiving true reform.

 

[Anonymous]

Glad to see that people agree on something.

Still, we have to understand that if things don't eventually and significantly change radical action must someday be taken. Action perhaps akin to what Naesco is talking about.

This forum has given a broader audience a perspective on some of the things going on in the trade. Some are dissatisfied. Some are very dissatisfied. Some even have remorse over being involved with this hobby. Seeing many of the active proponets of reform wasting energy attacking and exposing one anothers' past failures can and has bred a contempt for some of these reformers by some members of this new audience. Some are ready to "throw all the bums out" and start over from scratch with people that are not tainted with so many past failures. Some are willing to end the hobby if we can't do better.

Just something to consider, there are other Naesco's out there.

-Lee

 

[naesco]

You know I support MAC but MAC certification has nothing to do with the cyanide import.

MAC Certification has everything to do with "the cyanide import". MAC Certified collectors and their collectors associations are trained to use nets to collect fish. When MAC Certified fish are imported, it is a cyanide-free import.

.........John you indicated that the companies on the list had executed a statement of committement.
There is nothing in the statement of committment about their agreeing to stopping the use of cyanide.
There is nothing in the statement of committment about adopting the USL.

Have these names on the list agree to meet with reform to discuss adoption of the Manifesto.

They have agreed to become MAC Certified. As far as I know they have not been informed of your "manifesto", and therefore have not agreed to meet to discuss it. Do you mind if I call your "manifesto" "Wayne's World" ?

.........This is the same list posted in March of 2002 with a few usdates is it not?
All of the signatorys on the list from the Philippines and Indonesia have been informed of this thread by Reform as have the members of the export associations in those countries.

This Manifesto might include the following
1. Incorporation of a CDT by industry and a timeline for its implementation.
2. An Unsuitable Species List (USL) and a timeline for its review and adoption by industry.
3. Training; a plan, people, a timeline and a budget funded by industry.

How could anyone possibly not support the above?

MAC Certification already covers, or will cover, these concerns. You will find information on the CDT and its projected timeline in the 2 MAC CDT memos that I posted in this forum.


......There is a role for MAC in Reform. MAC will be contacted. Unfortuneately none of the industry(as defined) are members am I correct?

MAC will address the issue of certifying "unsuitable species" in the future, no timeline has been announced yet. Signers of the commitment already know that there will be the creation of a MAC "USL".

..........There is nothing in the statement of committment about the USL John.

MAC net-training is occuring as we speak. It is slower than many would wish for, but circumstances combined with human resources dictate how quickly anything can be accomplished by any organization. It is critical to the mission of MAC that "backsliding" does not occur now, or anytime in the future. Training and certification of collecting areas cannot proceed faster than MAC's ability to control the adherence to the standards. Presently MAC's budget is funded by grants and some donations. In the future MAC will be funded by industry itself.

......And what has industry as defined done to assist MAC? How much has industry donated to MAC training. (Note this is part of Reforms manifesto).

In many ways you seem to be trying to reinvent the wheel with your "Wayne's World" manifesto.

 

[naesco]

Of course hobbyists have a right to be informed. But you are not informing them. You are singularly trying to organize a radical take-no-prisoners approach to reform that is simply misdirected.

Hear-hear...

Wayne,

You have to understand something. From where I am sitting, your approach is way too radical. This is tantamount to PETA protestors throwing paint on fur-wearing individuals, or abortion foes murdering doctors who perform them, or people who spike trees in an attempt to hurt loggers...

No person in their right mind would support this: It is way too radical.

The same is true with your approach.

Your passion is admirable. You need to find a better way to channel it.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Mike MASNA removed the link from their website to this thread

Mike there is nothing radical about stopping the use of cyanide.

There is nothing radical about Reforms approach. I am pasting here the earlier post



This Manifesto might include the following
1. Incorporation of a CDT by industry and a timeline for its implementation.
2. An Unsuitable Species List (USL) and a timeline for its review and adoption by industry.
3. Training; a plan, people, a timeline and a budget funded by industry.


Representatives of reform will meet with representatives of industry (importers/wholesalers, P/I exporters and possibly other interested parties (Eric Borneman comes to mind) and draft??, discuss?? adopt?? a Manifesto

What is radical here?

The answers to questions 1-3 implementation and enforcement:
If the Manifesto was adopted by the representative present it would contain undertakings by industy to adopt the CDT with a time certain and pay for the random testing at their facilities by independent professional scientists.
I would expect that industry would immediately agree to say 10 of the 45 species of coral and fish on the proposed USL as a show of good faith and the rest would be subject to negotiations. Perhaps the opinions of outside experts like, Borneman, Michael and Fenner might be sought.
A training fund and budget would set up funded by industry with a reasonable timeline. We know there is a wealth of people willing and anxious to help.
The Participants.
1. People like myself who are prepared to blow the whistle on industry including experts in training, cyanide and the packaging/handling of fish and coral would represent reform.
2. Representatives from the appropriate Ministry in the Phillipines and Indonesia. The reps would have the political clout to go back to their respective govenments and tell them that their Marine Industy will be closed down unless certain steps are taken by them.
3. Representative from the US Government who are prepared to take whatever steps are necessary to close the industry down in the event that industry fails to act on the committments they will make.
4. All the major importers/wholesalers or their agreed representatives. They would have the authority to sign the committments to be made by industry. They would explain to their 'members' the consequences of failure to adopt and follow through with their committments. They would fund all reforms.
5. Members of the public including those who may be adverse to our hobby so that they can see reform happen or take appropriate steps if it fails.
6. Observers" MAC, MASNA, AMDA come to mind


What is radical here?

 

[mkirda]

What is radical here?

Whoa, Wayne.
How many times are you going to cut and paste the same text?

The radical part is threatening the importers. As several people have tried explaining to you several times before, people do not like to be threatened.
They tend to dig their heels in and resist, regardless.

Your entire approach is not positive.
Your entire approach is based on confrontation, not communication.
You come across as a zealot. They will do this, 'or else'.

You do not hold a trump card, Wayne. You do not hold anything.
This will very, very, very predicatably fail.

I think a more productive approach would be to sue the cyanide manufacturers, and/or importers into the Philippines instead, if you decide you must try the litigious route. Of course you must realize that for a fraction of the cost of hiring lawyers, you could hire net trainers, right?

But why would you attack the root of the problem, when you can attack the twigs at the top of the tree?

{shaking my head}
Again, your passion is admirable, but your methods are unsound.
I don't know how to be any clearer than this.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

MASNA removed the link from their website to this thread

And, frankly, I don't blame them.

I would only point out this thread as a perfect example of a good intention gone horribly wrong.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[naesco]

What is radical here?

Whoa, Wayne.
How many times are you going to cut and paste the same text?

The radical part is threatening the importers. As several people have tried explaining to you several times before, people do not like to be threatened.
They tend to dig their heels in and resist, regardless.

Your entire approach is not positive.
Your entire approach is based on confrontation, not communication.
You come across as a zealot. They will do this, 'or else'.

You do not hold a trump card, Wayne. You do not hold anything.
This will very, very, very predicatably fail.

I think a more productive approach would be to sue the cyanide manufacturers, and/or importers into the Philippines instead, if you decide you must try the litigious route. Of course you must realize that for a fraction of the cost of hiring lawyers, you could hire net trainers, right?

But why would you attack the root of the problem, when you can attack the twigs at the top of the tree?

{shaking my head}
Again, your passion is admirable, but your methods are unsound.
I don't know how to be any clearer than this.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

answer to come

 

[mkirda]

What do you disagree with in the Manifesto?
Please outline same to me.

I disagree with the entire concept.
You have no clout.
You are not American. No Senator or Congressmen would give you the time of day.
Threatening the importers with this lunatic fringe 'manifesto' will get you laughed at and dismissed. And rightfully so.

The whole idea that you can tackle the issue on this side of the Pacific is ludicrous. Can I sue McDonalds for littering every time I see their litter on the ground? Should we sue gun manufacturers for each and every gun-related injury and/or murder? At some point, Naesco, you have to understand that you can't treat cancer with aspirin. The US importers have no control over how the collectors capture the fish. The collectors do not work for the US importers.

Please, tackle the problem, not the symptom.
What you propose will get us nowhere.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[naesco]

This is a good time to summarize Reforms agenda.

1. Reform wants industry to incorporate a cyanide detection test and agree to a timeline for its implementation
2. Reform wants industry to adopt the Unsuitable Species List (USL) and agree to a timeline for its review and adoption.
3. Reform wants industry to formulate and fund a plan to move fishers from collecters by cyanide to net caught fishers and provide a timeline for its implementation.
4. Reform wants industry to implement reasonable standards governing the shipping and packaging of fish to North America.

Reform proposes a meeting with industry, P/I exporters and optionally representatives from the US and P/I governments, public interest groups and possibly observers from MAC, MASNA and the AMDA.

Reform is committed to reform.
We are thankful for the international support we are receiving from this and other boards and private emails and calls.