A message from REEForm

[mkirda]

they aint using rod and reels to fetch supper.

Kalkbreath,

This is where you show how much you know about fishermen in the Philippines.

Yes, as a matter of fact, there are many, many, many fishermen you use... Well, ok, they don't use necessarily a rod, but they do use hook and line off the side of the hand-paddle bancas. Many use spearguns. Many use nets. Many use wiers or fish traps. There are many ways of catching fish besides cyanide, even for food fish... The thing is, it is easy to tell some of the techniques, i.e. hole in fish from spear...

Not all use cyanide, but enough do.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

Fair enough.......but with upwards of 80 million fish to catch daily to feed each and every person on th islands.....how many collectors or fishermen does it take to catch 80 million fish a day?

 

[mkirda]

Fair enough.......but with upwards of 80 million fish to catch daily to feed each and every person on th islands.....how many collectors or fishermen does it take to catch 80 million fish a day?

Kalkbreath,

I don't know. You're good at making up statistics. Go fabricate a number and run with it.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

Fair enough.......but with upwards of 80 million fish to catch daily to feed each and every person on th islands.....how many collectors or fishermen does it take to catch 80 million fish a day?

Kalkbreath,

I don't know. You're good at making up statistics. Go fabricate a number and run with it.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

OKEY.........There are 81million people in PI. The vast majority eat fish as their meat ......how often a week Im not sure, but lets say the most would be once a day......for dinner. Next, we need to determin how many days a week fishermen .......fish / lets estimate....... daily....as the most ..........this would lead to one fishermen catching 81million fish each and every day?...........but this is most likely incorrect because thats a lot of fish for one guy on a raft with hand lines hanging off........ :wink: So lets assume that more then one fisherman is collecting dinner for all of PI...........How many fishermen are collecting ? Well , It seems some of us are too scared to ponder just how many Native fishermen are fishing alongside our hobby collectors........Wonder why that is? Perhaps .......its such a large number , that to acknowledge that millions of collectors are fishing side by side our few thousand hobby collectors ..........would cause complete and utter helplessness? Even at 100 fish per each fishermen .its still 800,000 fishermen!............... 8O

 

[blue hula3]

Kalk,

The vast majority of fish found in local markets in Bohol are pelagics not reef fish ... so they are hardly fishing "side by side" with collectors. Yes, there is fishing on the reefs (hand line, dynamite, nets, spears) but reefs alone do not supply all of the fish in the Phillipines.

And certainly in the villages I worked in, people were not eating fish even as often as once a day.

jessica

 

[mkirda]

The vast majority eat fish as their meat .

I would honestly say that this is probably not true.
Most people would eat chicken or pork as their main meat source.

For fish, you also have to realize that much of it is bagus, the so-called 'milk fish', which is mostly aquacultured from what my relatives have told me. Of course, I don't have any official governmental numbers to base this on, but after seeing so many fish ponds on various trips around the Philippines, I could believe this to be a fact. Tilapia, too. Shrimp as well, although maybe not as much after the various disease outbreaks that ran through Asian shrimp ponds over the last five years.

Point being that there are more than a few protien sources available to most people, even the poorer ones. Just about anyone can raise chickens.
Not everyone can afford fish, especially if they live inland. It is only the cities and coastal areas where fish consumption is higher.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

Lets see, you really think the vast majority of Filipinos buy their daily meat? And you really think the average family of six to eight people can raise their own chickens.......thats about 300 chickens a year per family if a third of their meals include poeltry.......{no wonder the reefs are polluted .....its chicken crap washing into the Sea} That would make Three chickens per family of eight once every three days or three hundred chickens per year ...Times 10 million families......equals{3,000,000} THREE THRILLION FREAKEN CHICKENS!!! 8O ............................Also, Groupers and grunts are a huge part of the catch and reef fish make up the greatest part of the "do it your selfers" trying to feed their families each day...........Daddy does not paddle out to Sea and snag tuna to feed grandma and the baybies. ................................... Yes, not all the fish are reef fish and some are fresh water................If the 81 million Filipinos dont eat fish every day and not all of the fish they do eat is caught out on the reefs..................Then how many do ? You have not a clue........EVEN IF ONLY ONE IN SEVEN OF THE PEOPLE DO EAT A REEF FISH ON ANY GIVEN DAY{ thats 12 million}>>>>>IT STILL ADS UP TO THE SAME NUMBER OF FISH IN ONE DAY, AS THIS HOBBY TAKES IN A YEAR!Or THREE HUNDRED AND FIFTY TIMES MORE........ :wink:See I already gave the numbers a huge discount in my last posts .......................Quote Kalkbreath;[".even ending collection for the hobby completely in PI would faintly amount to one days seafood/dinner collection.....thats 1/365th !! of a difference"] end Quote...... ....I just baited you to firmly establish that it is 350 times greater then our hobby. One seventh of 81 million is about 12 million which is what you all are quoting as the amount exported for the trade...........12 million per day times 365 days a year...... :wink:

 

[Kalkbreath]

I wish to make it clear, that I have not attacked MAC of what they are attempting to do ....................But, the negative presentation in which the reasons to buy net collected fish are being shoved in the face of hobbyists...... "Buy net collected fish or kill the reefs " ....that sets a horrible tone for both the hobby and more importantly, the people thinking about entering the hobby.........Something like "Catch the difference" ........." MAC fish are collected differently."............................... "They are better fish "........ This kind of message lets hobbyists focus on the happy things Net collected fish will bring them ....While still making reference to the collection improvements............without forcing them to conjuring up visions of death and plunder...Which are not even warranted........A conclusion on the behalf of potential new hobbyists ...That "I think I would rather just not be involved at all in this hobby" Is NOT what the reefs in PI ..need...............You sea, we are the only large group of people that actually give a damn about the reefs .........without our industry's presence there......who would be applying future pressure to the Food fish industry? NO ONE..........I jumped in on this thread , because it read that banning or boycotting PI and Indonesia would be a good thing for the reefs........and I hope I have shown why it would not be....................... :wink:

 

[mkirda]

Lets see, you really think the vast majority of Filipinos buy their daily meat? And you really think the average family of six to eight people can raise their own chickens.......thats about 300 chickens a year per family if a third of their meals include poeltry.......

Kalkbreath,

Let's just say that: 1) You ain't been there, and 2) You haven't any clue whether your numbers are right or wrong either.

In the provinces, nearly every family has at least a handful a chickens running around. Most have at least one pig, and many more have more than one. Chickens provide eggs. Pigs provide piglets. None of them require a whole lot of work to feed (they are all free range chickens). Almost none of the inland areas eat fresh fish. If they eat fish, it is dried or smoked and would not be a large percentage of their diet.

So, the 'vast majority' is not as vast as you portray it to be. I would agree that for the vast majority of coastal dwellers, fish would be a higher percentage of their diet. But I have no statistics on the percentage of coastal dwellers versus inland dwellers in the Philippines.

Most of the fish seen in the markets are taken by commercial fishing boats. A larger percentage are pelagics, so they require big boats with big nets or long lines. Most of the poor fishermen cannot begin to afford these fish. They glean what they can off the coastal reef flats or coastal reefs. For these people, the reefs are extremely important.

{snip}.I just baited you to firmly establish that it is 350 times greater then our hobby. One seventh of 81 million is about 12 million which is what you all are quoting as the amount exported for the trade...........12 million per day times 365 days a year...... :wink:

You didn't bait me with anything, Kalkbreath. You just spewed more uninformed or made-up-on-the-spot statistics to support your POV.
None of it 'proves' anything. You want to talk about this seriously, then do some research first, then cite the papers it comes from when you post. To do anything less than that is to publicly admit that you have no clue what you are talking about.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[blue hula3]

If the 81 million Filipinos dont eat fish every day and not all of the fish they do eat is caught out on the reefs..................Then how many do ? You have not a clue........EVEN IF ONLY ONE IN SEVEN OF THE PEOPLE DO EAT A REEF FISH ON ANY GIVEN DAY{ thats 12 million}>>>>>IT STILL ADS UP TO THE SAME NUMBER OF FISH IN ONE DAY, AS THIS HOBBY TAKES IN A YEAR!Or THREE HUNDRED AND FIFTY TIMES MORE........

Kalk,
I expect that after having worked in the country for a while, I have at least a small clue . Having said that, even after 3 years, I am still learning things every day from people who are from there, continue to work there, or continue to have ties there. Also, it is amazing what information you can actually find if you look for it rather than simply spew rhetoric (please note the sources cited below).

So:

Coral reefs are estimated to supply approximately 137,900 tonnes of fish per year in the Philippines, representing approximately 8.4% of the total marine production (www.reefbase.org). A big chunk of the rest is, you guessed it- pelagic fisheries as I and now Mike have indicated. Not quite the mom and dad tuna outfit but they can catch schooling pelagics nearby. Oh, and 37% of all marine fish production is from aquaculture(www.fao.org).

If you divide the total reef fishery production by the population of the Phils (83 million - www.wri.org), you get 1.7 kg of reef fish per person per year. That would be 4.6 g per day per person, or the equivalent of a skinny damsel fish.

If you divide the total reef fishery production by the area of reef in the Philippines (25,060 km2, remembering that 97% of it is considered at high risk and fairly trashed, www.reefbase.org), you get 5.5 tons/km2/yr. Convert this down, and it works out to 5.5 g/m2/yr. There's that damn pesky damselfish again - don't they weight about 5 g? Mmmmm, lunch out once a year.

So, based on these (referenced) numbers, and assuming that more than 1 damsel is caught per m2 per year, aquarium collectors might actually pull off MORE fish than their food fishing compatriots.

It's obviously not that simple as fishing isn't the same across all the reef areas. But nor do I feel you have a very good case for the "irrelevance of aquarium collecting in the grand scheme of trying to eat".

Lets see, you really think the vast majority of Filipinos buy their daily meat? And you really think the average family of six to eight people can raise their own chickens.......

Certainly every village I've worked in has been full of chickens and pigs. Having said that, there are many villagers who have access to neither fish nor chickens nor pigs. More than 71% of dietary energy supply comes from cereals in the Philippines, with seafood making up about 3.9% of dietary energy supply (www.fao.org).

This might be why 31.8% of preschool children are underweight and 28 million Filipinos have insufficient food (www.fao.org). Must be that those darn reefs aren't supplying nearly as much food as they ought to be.

Also, Groupers and grunts are a huge part of the catch and reef fish make up the greatest part of the "do it your selfers" trying to feed their families each day...........Daddy does not paddle out to Sea and snag tuna to feed grandma and the baybies. ...................................

In 3 years, I can count the days I dined on grouper on one hand. What planet are you on where you see reefs teaming with grouper? What data are you citing re: catch composition for "do it your selfers" ?

I just baited you to firmly establish that it is 350 times greater then our hobby. One seventh of 81 million is about 12 million which is what you all are quoting as the amount exported for the trade...........12 million per day times 365 days a year...... :wink:

Since the numbers are crap ... sorry I mean, unsupported, you haven't established a thing.

Cheers, Jessica

 

[blue hula3]

Daddy does not paddle out to Sea and snag tuna to feed grandma and the baybies.

And by the way, when we are talking about reef fishing, mom works darn hard gleaning to collect anything remotely edible.

Jessica

 

[Kalkbreath]

So how many fish do the natives collect for themselves daily? You are posting comercial and recorded numbers......How many Philipinos can affort to BUY their fish from these guys.......I am estimating the unreported fishermen that feed the locals.an dtheir families.....I say one in seven Philipinos eat fish each day thats 12 million.......are you saying 4%? if so thats still still three million fish each day.......or one hundred times more then our hobby ...................then add the exported food fish total which is not only fifty times more ,but fity percent cyanide positive and also includes thousands of groupers and wrasses to Asia.......... .......larger fish to boot and fish that require much greater cyanide blasts to stunn.....{then one ounce damsels}....you still have 150 time more fish and poison fishing per year USING YOUR NUMBERS then our hobby...... :wink: Next please

 

[Kalkbreath]

So:

Coral reefs are estimated to supply approximately 137,900 tonnes of fish per year in the Philippines, representing approximately 8.4% of the total marine production (www.reefbase.org). A big chunk of the rest is, you guessed it- pelagic fisheries as I and now Mike have indicated. Not quite the mom and dad tuna outfit but they can catch schooling pelagics nearby. Oh, and 37% of all marine fish production is from aquaculture(www.fao.org).

If you divide the total reef fishery production by the population of the Phils (83 million - www.wri.org), you get 1.7 kg of reef fish per person per year. That would be 4.6 g per day per person, or the equivalent of a skinny damsel fish. ..................................................................................................................... OK lets do it in reverse....THATS 83,000,000 DAMSELS and you forgot that 80% dont buy their fish .......so you need to divide the total buy those Philipinos

 

[kylen]

And the point to all these food fish numbers and not catching marine ornamental fish with cyanide is...?

 

[clarionreef]

Kylen,
Why? ...why to juxtapose the enormity of the impact created by mandkinds food fishing activity and to suggest by comparison that the status quo in tropical fish collecting is sustainable, low impact and benign.

Normally one might expect importers or exporters to make this argument; That the aquarium trade, though high in profile is low in damage caused. Big dealers in tropicals have decided to not to defend their Asian based fish supply and have generally opted for silence.
A man who represents himself has a fool for a lawyer it is said and the importers have taken this to heart and had the sense to keep quiet.
Kalk should get paid for this.

Steve

 

[kylen]

My question was actually kind of rhetorical.

Thanks for the explanation. Maybe we should speak about our own coast and the vast wastelands that are being created due to so-called fishing. Let's not point fingers at the Asian fishery. Remember, when you point...there are three fingers pointing back at you!!!

 

[clarionreef]

Yes...
But its good to suggest to Filipinos that what we know about ruining eco-systems is because we were stupid enough to do it already...many times.
As friends and customers, they might care to learn from our folley.
Cashing in the most preferred and critical niches on coral reefs with a squirt of caustic poison, day after day by a few thousand fisherman does add up. Try it in Hawaii and see what happens. And as the fish and game officer sends you to the judge...remember Kalks brilliant Limbaugh-esque defenses.
Each village has to stop poison fishing to allow the majority of innocent fisherman there to make a better living. Concentrated on in village after village, cyanide ruins critical habitat and drives fisherman futher and futher afield. Fisherman without nice boats and extra money for gas are stuck closer to home. Stuck working and working over depleted, compromised habitat.
Habitat sabatoge is 'poverty enhancement' and has no place in any countrys fisheries. The nerve of any foreigner to defend cyanide fishing in order to keep his fish flow coming as before!
The argument that counts against cyanide fishing is not a foreign one. It is a Filipino one. Cyanide fisherman are minorities in nearly every single village .
Steve

PS ...How dare a few dozen cyanide fisherman ruin thousands of acroporas and pocillaporas in the fishing grounds in front of innocent villages. They were often tolerated because it was thought that there was no alternative.
Delaying, squandering and mis-managing the implementation of the alternative by one foreign group after another is the real crime here. This would really would piss me off if I were a Filipino.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Thats my point.......90% of cyanide damage is from the other guys..{Seafood industry and locals.}......Village fishermen feeding their starving children .......They have little choice but to collect the only free meal available {fish}..............Our hobby only collects one fish per square mile {25,000 sqKm divided by 12,000,000 fish is 400 fish per year per sqkm or about one damsel per day...........per square kilometer......... You cannot destroy a square kilometer of reef buy taking three hundred damsels a year ...............but you sure can if the reported food fishing industry is taking five tons from the same area.........Note ;this does not take into account the unreported larger local "village fishing that Steve is making pointing out...............And I agree with Steve that its the local villages that are key to curbing the vast amounts of daily "personal use" poison fishing ........ without changing food fishing ............our net collectors will be collecting within the white and green dead reefs that the juice fishermen left for them.....

 

[clarionreef]

The moon must be blue tonite,
Kalk agrees with me.
While we enjoy the luxury of casual banter on the subject, quite a few towns and municipalities have already shut down to this industry and kicked us out!
The difficulty in securing supplies from just anywhere as before is a stinging rebuke of the trade and a local judgement that it is counterproductive. My favorite divers are from a place called Bolinao, Pangasinan. But...it was shut down till May of this year. While destructive fishing has been reduced due to the efforts of an enlightened Mayor there, the good guys were kept idle as well.
22 years ago, in a speech to a school gathering, I called the Marcos Mayor of Bolinao lazy and irresponsible for his open house policy for cyanide fisherman. My how times have changed!
The cyanide center of the country, Pagbilao, Quezon has been isolated and had its long range raiding parties kicked out all over the place. From Bicol to Palawan, thewre have been LGU's ie. local governments have judged the trade dirty , unsustainable and unwelcome.
Why else would local governments ban tropical fish fishing when livlihood is needed so badly? Why? Because finally, there are mayors and local fishery people who relize that burning 5 dollars to make one no longer makes even immediate short term sense.
What can open these places back up is bonafide, clean netsman training. What was once the worst of fisheries can become the best of fisheries. Its all in the methodology of capture...plain and simple.

Steve
PS. I have been asked many times from Manila...from exporters and ex-trainers hoping for action...when will we begin?
When indeed. MAC and the local group [ EASI ] that represents the training teams of Ferdie Cruz and myself are still, working on details the last I heard.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Jessica,

Back in 1998 Lyle Squire a wholesaler from Cairns Marine Aquarium Fish in Qld. Australia gave a talk about the trade of ornamental fish in Australia during a workshop in Manila.

According to his talk, in Australia there were in 1998 only 180 licensed fish collectors which exported around US$10 million. In the Philippines we know there are around 4000 colectors and according to the Bureau of Agriculture and Statistics of the Pi for the year 1998 the value of marine ornamentals exported was US$8.5 million.

The value of ornamental fish in Australia is a factor tha makes a huge difference, collectors in Australia are well paid and DO not need to collect hundreds of fish to be capable of putting food on the table.

We must admit that something is really wrong in the PI and IN. This is due to the cheap fish price structure. As a result the trade is not environmentally sustainable, too many fish collected and very high unnecessary mortality.

Do you know how many fish collectors are active in Australia and what is the value of exports?

Regards

Jaime