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A message from REEForm
- Thread starter naesco
- Start date
"One more time
REEForm wants a committment from industry to stop the use of cyanide in the Philippines and Indonesia.
REEForm wants a timeline for the implementation of the above.
REEForm wants a committment from industry to fund the Cyanide Detection Testing (CDT) and training necessary to achieve its goal of a cyanide free hobby.
I ask to you Mary. I ask you all how could this be a ridiculous demand?
_________________
REEForm: Never buy fish from the Philippines or Indonesia where the use of cyanide is rampant."
He says he doesnt want a ban on all Philippines or Indonesian fish, yet look at his signature. I have a feeling he would prevent anyone from purchasing these fish if he could, instead of just suggesting to people they should not. But no matter how mad everyone lets him make them with his statements and opinions, they should rather just ignore him if they don't agree, instead of giving him fuel to keep creating endless foment in our hearts and in the industry. Just my observation.
REEForm wants a committment from industry to stop the use of cyanide in the Philippines and Indonesia.
REEForm wants a timeline for the implementation of the above.
REEForm wants a committment from industry to fund the Cyanide Detection Testing (CDT) and training necessary to achieve its goal of a cyanide free hobby.
I ask to you Mary. I ask you all how could this be a ridiculous demand?
_________________
REEForm: Never buy fish from the Philippines or Indonesia where the use of cyanide is rampant."
He says he doesnt want a ban on all Philippines or Indonesian fish, yet look at his signature. I have a feeling he would prevent anyone from purchasing these fish if he could, instead of just suggesting to people they should not. But no matter how mad everyone lets him make them with his statements and opinions, they should rather just ignore him if they don't agree, instead of giving him fuel to keep creating endless foment in our hearts and in the industry. Just my observation.
salt creepette":vd6ba1db said:"One more time
REEForm wants a committment from industry to stop the use of cyanide in the Philippines and Indonesia.
REEForm wants a timeline for the implementation of the above.
REEForm wants a committment from industry to fund the Cyanide Detection Testing (CDT) and training necessary to achieve its goal of a cyanide free hobby.
I ask to you Mary. I ask you all how could this be a ridiculous demand?
_________________
REEForm: Never buy fish from the Philippines or Indonesia where the use of cyanide is rampant."
He says he doesnt want a ban on all Philippines or Indonesian fish, yet look at his signature. I have a feeling he would prevent anyone from purchasing these fish if he could, instead of just suggesting to people they should not. But no matter how mad everyone lets him make them with his statements and opinions, they should rather just ignore him if they don't agree, instead of giving him fuel to keep creating endless foment in our hearts and in the industry. Just my observation.
a:define industry
b: 10 yrs good enough? or does he want an already set (by him) deadline, rather than a realistic timeline? and what about the cdt as proposed by mac, which naesco promised to all would already be in place?
c: as someone who has worked in a few aspects of this industry (retail, wholesale, and distribution)-and as a hobbyist-i propose the following:
no hobbyist has the right to demand anything of 'industry', w/regards to funding of anything, unless they put up some funding first-this industry exists solely because of the hobbyist, not the other way around
you can either fish, or cut bait :wink:
naesco should get a life-the whining baby routine is getting very old, very fast
Talk is cheap.
Wayne is not in the industry, hasn't been in the industry - heck Wayne, do you even have a tank? (Inquring minds really want an answer to that one!)
Wayne is as underqualified as any suit to presume he can fix the industry.
IMO he's not worth the time of day. He's just spewing this nonsense because he figures he can pull some peoples' chains - and apparently he does. Why get worked up about this, people? He's so full of... well can't you smell it? Mmmm skimmate......
If he intended to carry out half of his shallow threats, he'd have done so by now. Or will he reply with the ever-redundant, "All in due time".... :roll:
It's only words, Wayne. You can't back any of it up. You have no power. You have no firsthand knowledge of any part of the industry. You're making MAC look like a finely tuned, well-oiled machine.
Personally I think Vitz summed it up nicely for me and for others, in his initial response to this thread. (Just my opinion, of course!)
Aren't there any hungry children in Vancouver that you can feed, Wayne? You've got a better chance of winning that prize you so desperately seek, doing something constructive, rather than presuming to think you can fix an industry that you have no clue about.
You've got as much chance of fixing the marine ornamentals trade as I have of piloting a space shuttle.
Jenn
Wayne is not in the industry, hasn't been in the industry - heck Wayne, do you even have a tank? (Inquring minds really want an answer to that one!)
Wayne is as underqualified as any suit to presume he can fix the industry.
IMO he's not worth the time of day. He's just spewing this nonsense because he figures he can pull some peoples' chains - and apparently he does. Why get worked up about this, people? He's so full of... well can't you smell it? Mmmm skimmate......
If he intended to carry out half of his shallow threats, he'd have done so by now. Or will he reply with the ever-redundant, "All in due time".... :roll:
It's only words, Wayne. You can't back any of it up. You have no power. You have no firsthand knowledge of any part of the industry. You're making MAC look like a finely tuned, well-oiled machine.
Personally I think Vitz summed it up nicely for me and for others, in his initial response to this thread. (Just my opinion, of course!)
Aren't there any hungry children in Vancouver that you can feed, Wayne? You've got a better chance of winning that prize you so desperately seek, doing something constructive, rather than presuming to think you can fix an industry that you have no clue about.
You've got as much chance of fixing the marine ornamentals trade as I have of piloting a space shuttle.
Jenn
I agree with everything that Vitz said in his reply so there is no need in me adding anything else.
I do, however, wish that Naesco would just leave this board and take his phony reform movement with him. It is not a real organization, it has no backing or support and it is almost as fake as Wayne himself.
I do, however, wish that Naesco would just leave this board and take his phony reform movement with him. It is not a real organization, it has no backing or support and it is almost as fake as Wayne himself.
naesco":20pyprws said:I am going to prepare a question and answer thread.
It is difficult for those serious about reform to wade through the personal stuff.
and once again- wayne speaketh from where the sun don't shine....
listen, you ninny-
those who are serious about reform take the issue VERY personally-and, speaking quite personally, i find you to be one of the biggest insults to the entire reform 'movement', whether it be from either the hobbyist, or the industry side
fish, or cut bait :wink:
geese :roll:
naesco":270gut6f said:REEForm: Never buy fish from the Philippines or Indonesia where the use of cyanide is rampant.
Wayne,
Here is the essence of why no one takes you seriously...
People inherently understand that conservation of resources absolutely requires development so they can derive an income from something other than the natural resource. In an area with no industry, there is little from which to derive an income except your natural resources.
Marine Ornamentals offer the potential to earn more income than fishing for food fish, Naesco. That is a fact.
Supporting an embargo is, therefore, counter-productive. Instead of MO, they are forced by the embargo to go back to food fishing. In order to derive the same income, the fishing pressure on the reefs MUST increase. And that is a bad thing.
Everyone seems to understand this but you.
And yet, you claim to support the efforts of MAC, but you do not differentiate between MAC-certified fish and other fish- You just want to ban them all...
Everyone seems to understand the hypocrisy of this but you.
There are other ways of attacking the problem that will be less costly, less disruptive, and would garner the support of industry and reform.
Any of those would be a better alternative than what you have presented so far.
Regards.
Mike Kirda
mkirda":24m5kav2 said:And yet, you claim to support the efforts of MAC, but you do not differentiate between MAC-certified fish and other fish- You just want to ban them all...
Mike,
You could take it to the next step. Never mind MAC certified fish, he doesn't differentiate cyanide caught fish from net caught fish.
Kyle
kylen":5189f98v said:Mike,
You could take it to the next step. Never mind MAC certified fish, he doesn't differentiate cyanide caught fish from net caught fish.
Kyle
Ahh, but how can you be sure that the net-caught fish was actually net-caught without certification? That would be, uh, er, actually, it *IS* MAC's argument.... To paraphrase a statement I once heard, a non-certified net-caught fish is not worth anything.
Wow, arguing from MAC's perspective is certainly strange, but I'll leave it that way simply because it is Naesco I am arguing against...
Regards.
Mike Kirda
Hey Mike,
This could become a very circular argument over is it really a net caught fish without watching the collector catch the fish and physically following that fish straight through to import.
But...my point, Naesco doesn't care even about reformed net caught product, MAC aside.
This could become a very circular argument over is it really a net caught fish without watching the collector catch the fish and physically following that fish straight through to import.
But...my point, Naesco doesn't care even about reformed net caught product, MAC aside.
vitz":28cb7s85 said:no hobbyist has the right to demand anything of 'industry', w/regards to funding of anything, unless they put up some funding first-this industry exists solely because of the hobbyist, not the other way around
Where do you get this, Vitz? I fund this 'industry' every time I purchase livestock or drygoods. I think I have the right to demand healthy, ethically/legally collected livestock, that are appropriate for the purpose for which I purchased them. You expect hobbyists to pick up the bill to fix a problem promulgated or at least perpetuated to a large degree by status quo industries' greed and corruption?
Hobbyists have always had the implicit right to demand that the animals they purchased were legally collected.
Unfortunately, hobbyists are in the position of having to ask their suppliers to prove that their livestock has been legally captured - hence certification.
As you said:
vitz":28cb7s85 said:this industry exists solely because of the hobbyist, not the other way around
Maybe 'industry' ought to say that to themselves in the mirror every morning when they get ready for work.
-Lee
_________________________________________________________
'marine fish free since two-thousand-and-three'
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Lee,
Its true of course that;
"Hobbyists have always had the implicit right to demand that their fish were legally collected".
And it would be great if some of them did that! If they did in any numbers beyond the token and minute fringe characters... we might get somewhere.
I think your post was an indictment of the lack of caring and compassion among most hobbyists. Imagine if CMAC or LMAS or anyMas were to unite and amass the troops to bring reatilers around and support the thankless efforts of the few netcaught importers. Wow! That would be something.
As a full time importer I get pressure to be cheap, cheaper and cheapest. I get pressure to have all fish ...all the time regardless of how they are collected.
I talk to retailers for a living and for them to feel the heat from the "implicit right to demand that their fish were legally collected" is something I can only dream about.
I wish they would come on like that. 10,000 Naescos putting their buying power to good use. Working with and supporting their retailer on buying only netcaught fish! Wow!
Lee...lets start with Chicago. Turn one single store away from his irresponsible buying habits and you'll have a good start.
I can't wait for netcaught stores, fortified by consciencious hobbyists to arise and demand netcaught fish!
Words are for the internet...but life is lived everywhere else. Lets get some real pressure going among the masses and not just the loners and fruit-cakes.
Sincerely, Steve
PS. The most credible reform efforts have been initiated from inside the industry, by importers! The consumer is supposed to be doing this right?Hobbyists need to put down that direct-mail order, drop-ship catalog and support/convince their local storefront to do the right thing!
Its true of course that;
"Hobbyists have always had the implicit right to demand that their fish were legally collected".
And it would be great if some of them did that! If they did in any numbers beyond the token and minute fringe characters... we might get somewhere.
I think your post was an indictment of the lack of caring and compassion among most hobbyists. Imagine if CMAC or LMAS or anyMas were to unite and amass the troops to bring reatilers around and support the thankless efforts of the few netcaught importers. Wow! That would be something.
As a full time importer I get pressure to be cheap, cheaper and cheapest. I get pressure to have all fish ...all the time regardless of how they are collected.
I talk to retailers for a living and for them to feel the heat from the "implicit right to demand that their fish were legally collected" is something I can only dream about.
I wish they would come on like that. 10,000 Naescos putting their buying power to good use. Working with and supporting their retailer on buying only netcaught fish! Wow!
Lee...lets start with Chicago. Turn one single store away from his irresponsible buying habits and you'll have a good start.
I can't wait for netcaught stores, fortified by consciencious hobbyists to arise and demand netcaught fish!
Words are for the internet...but life is lived everywhere else. Lets get some real pressure going among the masses and not just the loners and fruit-cakes.
Sincerely, Steve
PS. The most credible reform efforts have been initiated from inside the industry, by importers! The consumer is supposed to be doing this right?Hobbyists need to put down that direct-mail order, drop-ship catalog and support/convince their local storefront to do the right thing!
Well said, Lee. Steve, your idea of hobbyists boycotting LFS makes more sense everyday. It seems that if anything is going to be done about the problem, we, as hobbyists, may have to take the plunge and begin a reform movement amongst ourselves.
Nancy
Nancy
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Nancy,
I said...10,000 ...putting their buying power to good use. Working with and supporting their retailer on buying only netcaught fish.
The idea was a supporting of the LFS, not a boycott. Support the good one and...is that a boycott? SUPPORTING the good guys is a lot more pro-active and a lot nicer.
WE'D NEED TO KEEP THIS POSITIVE NOW. That was why so many fell away from the Naesco dogma...including early supporters like myself.
His "torch every house in the village" approach left no room for the well intented dealers to be allies.
Sincerely, Steve
I said...10,000 ...putting their buying power to good use. Working with and supporting their retailer on buying only netcaught fish.
The idea was a supporting of the LFS, not a boycott. Support the good one and...is that a boycott? SUPPORTING the good guys is a lot more pro-active and a lot nicer.
WE'D NEED TO KEEP THIS POSITIVE NOW. That was why so many fell away from the Naesco dogma...including early supporters like myself.
His "torch every house in the village" approach left no room for the well intented dealers to be allies.
Sincerely, Steve
Steve,
The fact that there is any market for net-caught at all is due, in large part, to the efforts of the 'MAS groups that you are challenging. The local clubs and the on-line clubs, such as this BB, are on the front lines of educating hobbyists about cyanide and handling issues; along with a few ethical LFSs, e-tailers, and importers.
I've never understood your opposition to e-tailers. I've been lied to by many LFSs that said their livestock was ethically collected when it may well have not been. When asked about cyanide they spin it away as "a 1970's problem". If you prove yourself knowledgable on the topic they say "we are doing the best that we can do to purchase netcaught". When you ask what their best is they say "we once ordered from ORA or from a net-caught group that had terrible mortality rates" and help another customer. If an e-tailer does a better job then they should be patronized - rewarded with our business. If the LFSs won't change they should be boycotted. If all of the LFSs in a market won't change e-tail makes perfect sense.
-Lee
The fact that there is any market for net-caught at all is due, in large part, to the efforts of the 'MAS groups that you are challenging. The local clubs and the on-line clubs, such as this BB, are on the front lines of educating hobbyists about cyanide and handling issues; along with a few ethical LFSs, e-tailers, and importers.
I've never understood your opposition to e-tailers. I've been lied to by many LFSs that said their livestock was ethically collected when it may well have not been. When asked about cyanide they spin it away as "a 1970's problem". If you prove yourself knowledgable on the topic they say "we are doing the best that we can do to purchase netcaught". When you ask what their best is they say "we once ordered from ORA or from a net-caught group that had terrible mortality rates" and help another customer. If an e-tailer does a better job then they should be patronized - rewarded with our business. If the LFSs won't change they should be boycotted. If all of the LFSs in a market won't change e-tail makes perfect sense.
-Lee
But Steve, according to Mary most folks lie about where their fish come from and how they were caught.
Jeremy says his business is not suffering by NOT SELLING anything that comes from Indo or the PI.
If hobbyists start boycotting all LFS importing from those countries, that would get industry motivated to get its act together rather than the incessant spouting of rhetoric and posturing.
Nancy
Jeremy says his business is not suffering by NOT SELLING anything that comes from Indo or the PI.
If hobbyists start boycotting all LFS importing from those countries, that would get industry motivated to get its act together rather than the incessant spouting of rhetoric and posturing.
Nancy
What would happen if 10,000 hobbyists showed up at LFS all across the country and demanded cyanide-free fish?
10,000 retail stores would tell them "our fish are cyanide free."
Hence the need for certification.
Then the hobbyists can say "Prove it."
And then the retailer COULD actually prove it. Not just SAY it.
Cheers
James
10,000 retail stores would tell them "our fish are cyanide free."
Hence the need for certification.
Then the hobbyists can say "Prove it."
And then the retailer COULD actually prove it. Not just SAY it.
Cheers
James
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