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clarionreef

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Hey now,
This topic is drifting into the coral trade and e-tailers. It should perhaps be divided.
Jeremys store has fish of course but is more noted for its excellent Corals and inverts.
The coral trade has stolen the thunder from the usual business in fish and fish concerns making the resolution of the cyanide problem less of a concern among many.
Live rock, coral, inverts etc. can now carry a store where before they could not. Before such a store could be considered a supporter of sustainable practices however, there would need to be a credible defense of the Indonesian, Fijian and Solomon trade in wild coral. Make no mistake, the huge percentage of coral in this industry is from the ocean.
Steve
 

PeterIMA

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Having been involved with this issue from the early 1980s (like Steve R and a few others) I have witnessed attempts to rally the hobby and trade. Steve advocated a boycott that never caught on. I don't think a hobbyist boycott would work now either. However, it is encouraging to see MASNA actually expressing some concern. Good going Nancy!

Trying to convince consumers (hobbyists) to put quality (net-caught) ahead of price also has problems, but needs to be tried through an education campaign. Certainly, comsumers have rights and should exercise them. Hobbyists have been surprisingly docile and apathetic considering that fish caught with cyanide often die in their tanks.

Proving that fish are net-caught is the problem. We need the reimplementation of cyanide testing. This could be either in the exporting or the importing countries. Right now, there are problems with doing CDT at either end of the chain of custody. Will the MAC do it or get BFAR to do it? I am still waiting.

Is the MAC going to save the trade? I don't believe so; but encourage them to put in an honest effort. Hobbyists are a force that needs to be expressed on these issues.

Peter Rubec
 

MaryHM

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If hobbyists start boycotting all LFS importing from those countries, that would get industry motivated to get its act together rather than the incessant spouting of rhetoric and posturing.

Reality check. You really want hobbyists to boycott suppliers who buy from the Philiippines and Indonesia?? Well then, you've just started a boycott of EVERY SINGLE LFS IN THE COUNTRY. Steve and I are officially "boycotted" as well. That matter aside, where are the hobbyists going to get their stuff from? You know, all 10% of them (high figure) that really care enough to do something. They still need food, pumps, and a bunch of other things to keep their tanks going. A boycott is not going to work, never in a million years. Why do people keep screaming "boycott" as a way to solve the problem? That doesn't solve anything. Hobbyists have absolutely no way of proving where anything comes from. And I think we've all learned enough here to realize that MAC certification in its current state is not fool proof evidence. [/quote]
 
A

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SciGuy2":m5uiqmf6 said:
vitz":m5uiqmf6 said:
no hobbyist has the right to demand anything of 'industry', w/regards to funding of anything, unless they put up some funding first-this industry exists solely because of the hobbyist, not the other way around

Where do you get this, Vitz? I fund this 'industry' every time I purchase livestock or drygoods. I think I have the right to demand healthy, ethically/legally collected livestock, that are appropriate for the purpose for which I purchased them. You expect hobbyists to pick up the bill to fix a problem promulgated or at least perpetuated to a large degree by status quo industries' greed and corruption?

Hobbyists have always had the implicit right to demand that the animals they purchased were legally collected.

Unfortunately, hobbyists are in the position of having to ask their suppliers to prove that their livestock has been legally captured - hence certification.

As you said:
vitz":m5uiqmf6 said:
this industry exists solely because of the hobbyist, not the other way around

Maybe 'industry' ought to say that to themselves in the mirror every morning when they get ready for work.

-Lee

_________________________________________________________

'marine fish free since two-thousand-and-three'

heh...

there is no such thing as an implicit right-in fact there really are no 'rights', but rather, there are privileges offered to you by the society you live in-you and your society may call them rights, but w/out laws, and enforcement, they dissappear in a thin poof of smoke;)

hobbyists have the ability to vote w/their dollar-no rights at all involved here :wink:

and for all i've seen since being in the retail end of the hobby-99.9% of all hobbyists care about one thing only-where to get the cheapest fish. period.

most couldn't give a rat's patoot about where, or how, the fish come from or arrive at the lfs-including the ones i talk to everyday that walk into our store

i'll give anyone 50 to 1 odds that even after certification, most hobbyists won't be banging down doors to see if the fish they're buying are 'certified'

they just don't care, for the most part

in fact- most 'hobbyists' aren't even hobbyists-i think a far more appropo term would be 'fishkeepers'


Where do you get this, Vitz? I fund this 'industry' every time I purchase livestock or drygoods. I think I have the right to demand healthy, ethically/legally collected livestock, that are appropriate for the purpose for which I purchased them. You expect hobbyists to pick up the bill to fix a problem promulgated or at least perpetuated to a large degree by status quo industries' greed and corruption?

heh- i'm sure you don't spend money at an lfs for the 'noble purpose' of providing me w/a livelihood,or the fishermmen, for that matter, or you'ld just give it to us as charity

you can demand to get what you pay for, and can vote w/your dollar

i can also vote w/my dollar, and do so when i can(actually it's w/my boss's dollars) to get ethically raised/caught animals, and to try and screen customers, to see who needs 'education' to keep these fine creatures as healthy as possible for as long as possible

and yes- i expect the consumers in any industry to fix the industry that provides them w/the goods and services they demand-no industry will ever police itself for the good of the consumer :wink:
 

Kalkbreath

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jamesw":1kg79ayw said:
What would happen if 10,000 hobbyists showed up at LFS all across the country and demanded cyanide-free fish?

10,000 retail stores would tell them "our fish are cyanide free."

Hence the need for certification.

Then the hobbyists can say "Prove it."

And then the retailer COULD actually prove it. Not just SAY it.

Cheers
James
Ill turn it around......"prove it !" No one has ever proven that PI fish or Indo fish are not cleanly net caught.......Not within the last twenty years.........Only small time importers needing to aggrandize their livestock in order to compete with the big boys...........Prove to the hobbyists that cyanide collection still takes place on a large scale and you might win the attention of the average hobbyists.......Ask Peter If he can do some small scale testing on lets say Blue tangs........Just be prepared to handle the outcome of such tests......if blue tangs come out "Clean" AND THEY NEVER DIE FROM PI SO IM NOT TOO SURE THAT THEY ARE JUICE CAUGHT?..............So be prepared to fall flat on your Reef form faces if new testing exculpates the hobby collectors....... :wink: Blindly order one box of bule tangs from twenty of the largest PI collectors .....blindly test twenty percent and sell the remaining fish ........thats only twenty percent of five thousand bucks..{$1000}...you will win everything or loose it all .......but unless you reeformer change your approach ...................the few people still paying attention.............................. wont for long.
 

mkirda

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Kalkbreath":y9trl8n8 said:
...................the few people still paying attention..............................

Kalkbreath,

You should know that by the time the fish arrive in the US and could be tested, just because of the length of time between when they were captured and when they were exported, there would be no detectable levels of cyanide in their bodies whether they were juiced or not.

So, the results of any such test would be invalid anyway, especially since the only place there exists a lab to do such testing would be in the Philippines, so we'd have to ship the fish back there to be tested anyway!!!

Nice idea, but cannot be implemented. Sorta like testing drunk drivers for drunkeness two weeks after being pulled over by the police. :wink:

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

Kalkbreath

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So tell me again .....and all the hobbyists ,why they should believe in a cause that has never been shown a need to exist ? What makes you so sure there even is a current cyanide problem ? A few photos of spotted corals, that may or may not have been from human fishing { there are a lot of crown of thorns starfish and coral eating fish and snails in PI that harm thousands of corals daily} I have been taunting people for years both for images of vast coral death by cyanide and for photos of big foot..........neither of which has anyone come forward with? Funding for bigfoot research and coral reef harm would increase ten fold with at least some shread of proof either exist.......
 

MaryHM

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Kalk,

Find me one major US importer who will publicly state that there is no cyanide problem in the Philippines and Indonesia.
 

Kalkbreath

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MaryHM":1klh474q said:
Kalk,

Find me one major US importer who will publicly state that there is no cyanide problem in the Philippines and Indonesia.
Find me one that will Publicly state that there is and then display any proof of such? The majority will also tell you that Bigfoot most likley exists in the mountains of Canada......{perhaps a naked Naesco}? ........... they have formed the opinion short of any tangible proof.......explain to me what make yourself certain? With the seafood industry fishing ,not only in the same areas........but manytimes in the same boat or even the same fishermen catching both food fish and tiny reef fish for aquariums..........It becomes quite easy to mistake one trade for the other.........Even one of my exporters in Tonga collects mostly seafood.......but she also collects great hobby fish .......................No scientist has ever been able to get the correct dose of cyanide to kill coral but not the tiny reef fish in an aquarium. {its just as hard to in the wild }The only way to find out whats urban rummer and whats fact is to test......again.
 

PeterIMA

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Kalk, I have 48,000 cyanide test measurements in the CDT database that proves that a large proportion of the marine ornamental fish exported from the Philippines had cyanide present in their tissues. Proving that fish imported to the USA from the Philippines were caught with cyanide is another matter. When the latter test becomes available the prosecutions of US importers will begin.

Peter Rubec
 

PeterIMA

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Kalk,
You seem to have a short memory. The paper by James Cervino and co-authors (including myself) "proved" that cyanide exposure killed 8 genera of corals and one species of sea anemone. It has color photographs showing the corals before and after exposure to known concentrations of hydrocyanic acid. This is not a mythical situation. If you want a copy of the paper titled "Changes in zooxanthellae density, morphology, and mitotic index in hermatypic corals and anemones exposed to cyanide" published in the Marine Pollution Bulletin Vol. 46:573-586 (2003) send me your name and postal address.

Peter Rubec
 

MaryHM

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Find me one that will Publicly state that there is and then display any proof of such?

Elwyn Segrest of Segrest Farms stated at the 1999 Marine Ornamental conference that he personally witnessed collectors using cyanide to collect aquarium fish, and he later brought those fish back to his own personal tank where they are doing fine. Since then, Mr. Segrest has changed his attitude toward cyanide use.

Ok. I answered your question, now you answer mine if you can.

Find me one major US importer who will publicly state that there is no cyanide problem in the Philippines and Indonesia.

C'mon Kalk. Just one. Let's see who you come up with.
 

PeterIMA

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Mike, Your comments concerning cyanide testing in the USA may apply to the test for cyanide ion (previously conducted in the Philippines by IMA). A test for thiocyanate ion in marine fish is being developed. This could be used on imported fish.

Peter Rubec
 

John_Brandt

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PeterIMA":2qv9bvxv said:
Kalk, I have 48,000 cyanide test measurements in the CDT database that proves that a large proportion of the marine ornamental fish exported from the Philippines had cyanide present in their tissues. Proving that fish imported to the USA from the Philippines were caught with cyanide is another matter. When the latter test becomes available the prosecutions of US importers will begin.

Peter Rubec

Can a US Court prove before a jury that the presence of cyanide (or thiocyanate) in a fish's tissue is undeniable evidence that that fish was captured with cyanide?



Abra River Pollution

Lepanto Denies Dumping Cyanide, Other Mine Tailings into Historic River

BAGUIO CITY, PHILIPPINES -­ It is puzzling how the Lepanto Consolidated Mining Corporation (LCMCo or Lepanto) can insult people’s common sense by saying that they are not dumping wastes in the Abra River ­as if 3,000 kilograms of cyanide everyday can simply evaporate into thin air and 1,300 tons of daily debris can miraculously disappear.

By Milena Roque
Northern Dispatch Weekly - Philippines
Bulatlat News, September 9, 2003

This is the enraged reaction of Sr. Emma Cupin of Missionary Sisters of Mary and of the Save the Abra River Movement (STARM) on the occasion of the National Minority Week celebration here a week ago.

STARM is a multi-sectoral network campaigning against the destruction of the Abra River by mining activities, allegedly largely by Lepanto.

“It is even more ridiculous for Lepanto to claim that their dam can withstand a 900-year flood when they have a consistent record of tailings dam collapses that have poisoned crops and destroyed the people’s livelihood,” adds Sister Cupin.

acidminedrainage.jpg


According to STARM, Lepanto has denied corporate responsibility to the study of the National Institute of Geological Studies that barangays (villages) Poblacion and Colalo in Mankayan are sinking to a magnitude comparable to the Cherry Hills disaster in Antipolo, Rizal in 1999. Scores of people were buried alive in that mudslide.

“Blinded by greed, the Lepanto can no longer see the pain of the national minorities and the communities surrounding the Abra River who have endured untold suffering as complaints and petitions pile up for two-thirds of a century,” Sister Cupin relates.

“Save the Abra River” and “Stop Lepanto expansion” among other placards were held up by the national minorities as they picketed in front of the Department of Environment and Natural Resources - Cordillera office here.

Clearing the issues

STARM and Cordillera Peoples Alliance (CPA) representatives were met by Mines and Geosciences Bureau Regional Director Neoman dela Cruz as the latter heard the program going on in front of his office.

Dela Cruz commented that STARM barely concludes that river population can only be traced to corporate mining activities. With this, he said his office is determined to have further studies on the effects of mining to agricultural and aquatic life in Abra.

Dela Cruz said Lepanto funded a P1.5 million research study “to once and for all clear the issue.” The study, now on its first phase, is headed by the Mine Rehabilitation Fund Committee with multi-sectoral representatives, including those from Lepanto, participating.

In a press conference here last month, Lepanto corporate environmental manager Glenn Batilando welcomed the suggestion to include STARM in the research group, “as long as they would abide by the rules and regulations of the monitoring body.”

CPA chairperson Joan Carling asked dela Cruz why, despite the media-announced invitation, STARM was never formally notified of or invited into the research.

Dela Cruz in turn said he could not decide alone because it is a committee, and that they were waiting for STARM’s formal request.

“However, it’s not yet too late,” dela Cruz clarified.

CPA also asked dela Cruz that the affected communities be consulted and informed of the extent of the ongoing research study, and community representatives be accommodated in the research group.

Although hesitant at first, saying such work needs expertise, dela Cruz finally asked the names of the community representatives and promised to endorse STARM participation.

Not just Lepanto

Meanwhile, picketers outside the DENR building carried on with their speeches and pointed out who the “peoples’ enemies” are.

“With our minds clear, our whole humanity rages for justice to realize that we are facing not only the giant enemy Lepanto, but the bigger foe -­ our national government itself,” explained Sister Cupin.

Despite the damages to the lands and the people, President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo now “intensifies foreign and destructive mining as a roadmap to so-called ‘development,’ ” she also said.

The Cordillera peoples are now faced with the impending passage of the National Minerals Policy, fearing their already massive sufferings will be multiplied, the sister further said. “The destruction of the national minorities’ land, life, and resources therefore thrives and proliferates in a policy environment of outright national oppression with our own government selling out our patrimony, which is treasonous even to our own Constitution,” she concluded.
 

Kalkbreath

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No one is saying there is no cyanide fishing in PI.......its wether hobby juice fishing is a large scale problem today tweny years latter and how much of current cyanide damage is from other sources...{ thankyou John}......? When we have clownfish comming up positive ...........something is amiss
 

Kalkbreath

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PeterIMA":1k492y9r said:
Mike, Your comments concerning cyanide testing in the USA may apply to the test for cyanide ion (previously conducted in the Philippines by IMA). A test for thiocyanate ion in marine fish is being developed. This could be used on imported fish.

Peter Rubec
Lets do it ! come up with a cost Peter....
 

MaryHM

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Kalk,

Nice job of making specific statements and then avoiding my direct question even though I answered yours. You win the 1st annual Naesco award.

No one is saying there is no cyanide fishing in PI.......its wether hobby juice fishing is a large scale problem today tweny years latter and how much of current cyanide damage is from other sources

So you're saying that if cyanide is a small scale problem then we should just ignore it?? What percentage of fish collected for the hobby via cyanide is acceptable in your eyes? (Hint: That is a direct question that requires a number and a percent sign.)
 

Kalkbreath

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Im sorry...... I was still looking, as I have been for years.....for one shred of proof that there is a large scale problem today .......which has never been addressed by anyone........the "acceptable "amount would be that in which such little damage from hobby cyanide fishing is occurring to the live coral ......that it becomes silly to waist both time and the hobby's entire reputation on a few collectors which have chosen to collect in a manor that is easier then net fishing......just because a few young in experienced collectors have chosen to brake the law ,should we group the complete industry a criminal? Brim marine , which the former owner of Seagrest .....{Eldwin} ......Brim is a fine example of the old way {twenty years ago}and the new......Today companies like Brim Marine .have made many changes both in collection and import ......................................................When we blanket an entire country as tainted , simply because a few brake the rules......its like claiming as fact that, because the USA has the highest number mass murderers per capita in the world ...... " Americans are murderers"............The question was,"what percent of fish collected with cyanide would be an acceptable amount? Judging from the amount of coral damage both you and Naesco have illustrated for your cause ...........the collectors in PI are still quite well within the "acceptable range".....
 

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