A review and discussion on the research of Dr. Peter Rubec

[Jaime Baquero]

Hello All,
I spoke to Peter this afternoon in reguards to the fish mortaity study & a few other things. Over the next few days or so I will attempt to find all the paper work & Tapes of the fish mortality study we did a few years back and post them here so everyone knows how it was done. Mind you I have moved several times & had two major back operations and I am not sure how much of the original study is left. I have to make my way to the storage facility & get someone to get up into the attic and start checking box'es. First however there are a few things I need to get off my chest about the industry, orginizations, & people. So lets get it out of the way.

The Industry.....For the most part a bunch of clowns, looking for nothing more then cash period. They could care less about Fish or the hobbiest, they are a bunch of yes men that will sell there mothers if it would bring up the bottom line.

Jamie P....If there ever was a whore of the hobby he is it. Sorry Jamie but you turn my stomach.....first compuserve, then Aol, now here. At least you are not begging for money this time. 10+ years and all the hobby has gott'in out of you is cheap talk. Yep....start to do something constructive and Jamie will be there for the first week or so then move on to the next if he see's the possiblity of money.

The uneducated hobbiest....The ones that find it easier to run back to the store and buy even more fish when they can't keep the ones they have alive.

Dr Pratt....A total waste, not even worth the time and effort.....When are you going to pay back Peter you hump. Remember where you were sleeping before Peter came to your rescue. Stand up and be a man.

Peter Rubec.... Tho we have had our difference's and there have been a few, Peter is among the very few whom truly care The time & personal money this man has spend is mind boggleing.

Hello Frank Lallo,

Despite your nasty words, nice knowing that you are doing OK. The rest of your message goes down to the toilet.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

I tell it like it is...in english so everybody can understand. Some just don't tell you the truth. Here's a case in point.....When Kansas hosted Macna quite a few years back 7 of us sat and worked out an agreement over drinks to make an honest effort to nail down the mortality rates from the Phill: The biggest importer/exporter was at this meeting and flat out told us his mortality rate was well over 70%....a week after we all went home this importer/exporter had a lapse of memory. Oh by the way at least 3 of the people in this thread were at that meeting I was one, I will leave the other 2 for you to figure out. And it is not going to stop until the wolfves stop guarding the chicken coop.

Frankie

Peter,

Could you please clarify F. Lallo's statement about "the biggets importer/exporter's mortality of 70% a week". This is a matter of ccredibility. No one can show up here and just say things that do not make any sense. I guess the other two people Frank is talking about is Peter Rubec and Jaime Baquero. My honest response to that comment is that F. Lallo got too many drinks. I know who's the importer/exporter Frank is talking about.

jaime

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Why all a sudden, is there such a great call for a background check on EVERY LAST PERSON who wants to ingauge in this discussion? If your all so friggin concerned (not just you Jamie, this has happened several times in the past weeks) POST YOUR OWN BACKGROUND INFO IN YOUR RDO PROFILE, then all others can access at their own pace. If you all who are concerned did this, you all would know, and you won't have these petty comebacks that help nothing. Just a thought.

I consider this survey should be done by specialist in the field

Some one in the survey field, a professional? Sounds like a salary to me. I think Peter's new survey with his additional protection for the LFS is a good idea. I see NO problem with sending it to all groups working within the trade, ie. PIJAC, AMDA, OFI, etc. I think the wholesalers should also pass along this survey to their customers and ask them to fill it out, and send it back (without their name on it, just city/state) to Peter (or whom ever wants to conduct the survey). It should also be accessable via the internet, in a pdf form that then can be emailled to Peter. The survey needs to address all areas that kill fish, late flights, etc. Not just reccrding doa/daa, that really doesn't show much.

Greshamh,

If we want to see the real picture the survey has to be done including as many variables as possible. Conditions (packing, bagging, total travel time, NH3, pH, O2 etc) are different to each level of the trade. Importers getting fish from overseas (24 hours total travel or more) could be dealing with more fish's stress and mortalities than reatilers. DOA and DAA causes can be completely different. The industry knows that there is a mortality issue that needs to be addressed. The question is ... Are they interested in tackling that problem?


Jaime[/b]

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Mike, I am curious. What is your background?

Jaime

I am but a lowly hobbyist, Jaime.

My background matters little: Unless I had a PhD in something marine related, you would just use my background against me.

The truly funny thing is that you are equally critical of those who have said PhD's.

Had you been reading my posts, you probably would have figured my background out already anyway.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Mike,

I asked about your background just to have information about yourself,. you seem to know everything about this trade, that's it. Do not worry I am not interested in using any thing against you. I have more important things to do.

I do respect Peter Rubec, he is an honest scientist and has been tackling different issues related to the collection of marine ornamental for decades.
However, I can disagree, sometimes, with what Peter says. Peter Rubec has the right to make mistakes. No every thing Peter says is the last word.
See for example what is happening with the DOA/DAA's issue.

Jaime

 

[PeterIMA]

Jaime,
The importer/exporter in question did make the 70% mortality statement in a bar at the MACNA conference. Frank Lallo and myself were among about 7 people seated around the table, who heard him say it. You were not present at the time the statement was made (although you were at the conference).

Peter Rubec

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Jaime,
The importer/exporter in question did make the 70% mortality statement in a bar at the MACNA conference. Frank Lallo and myself were among about 7 people seated around the table, who heard him say it. You were not present at the time the statement was made (although you were at the conference).

Peter Rubec

Peter,

Strange, I was almost all the time with you guys, specially during the drinks time (is the time when you really know each other and have fun)). I shared room with Frank Lallo but he didn't mention anything about the statement made by the importer/exporter in question.

Jaime

 

[Anonymous]

If we want to see the real picture the survey has to be done including as many variables as possible. Conditions (packing, bagging, total travel time, NH3, pH, O2 etc) are different to each level of the trade. Importers getting fish from overseas (24 hours total travel or more) could be dealing with more fish's stress and mortalities than reatilers. DOA and DAA causes can be completely different. The industry knows that there is a mortality issue that needs to be addressed. The question is ... Are they interested in tackling that problem?

I'm in the industry Jamie. I pack fish for a living, so please spare me the details that I all ready know, and think about DAILY. I see the entire process unfold every week. We continually work on doa/daa issues, its our business to do so. Steve is ALWAYS working with EVERY exporter we deal with, so YES the "industry" is working on it. I know Mary is working on it, as are most of our clients. What are you doing about doa/daa issues? Are you working with the industry in any capacity, to help with the doa/daa issues? What is your job anyways, since you say you do your work for free. Are you involved in any capacity in the import/export of fish? Have you ever even worked within the industry, other then being a " volunteer"?

 

[PeterIMA]

RE: Character Assassination and Libelous Statements

Over the past year this forum has provided a lot of factual information that I believe can help with reforming collection, shipping, and handling practices in the aquarium trade. I am encouraged by the frank exchange of information. The latest discussions pertained to the accuracy of the CDT/ISE method and mortality thoughout the chain from reef to retailer. These discussions have led to some heated statements by several individuals. Whether one believes them or not, I suggest people refrain from outright attacks on an other individual's character.

In the past the forum moderator has censored such defamatory statements. This did not occur when John Brandt (the former moderator) attacked my character and my scientific credibility concerning mortality in the trade and the accuracy of the CDT results obtained by IMA (without providing any proof for his allegations). I was left to defend myself (which I did).

Recently, Mr. Frank Lallo got on this forum and attacked the character of Dr. Vaughan Pratt (President of IMA) and that of Mr. Jaime Baquero (President of OVI). These attacks were similar to others made previously by Steve Robinson. Both Dr. Pratt and Mr. Baquero have worked for over a decade to conduct net-training and other village-based programs in the Philippines. The trade did not financially assist with these studies to any significant degree. Neither did marine hobbyists. So, I don't feel it is fair for the aquarium trade or hobby to criticize these individuals with personal attacks on their character (attacks on program administration etc. might be more acceptable). Personal attacks on an individual's character should not be condoned on Reefs.org.

The individuals being maligned have the right to sue both the persons making these viscious (possibly unfounded) allegations, and also to sue Reefs.org if necessary. Please keep this in mind when posting on this forum. Lets try to be civil with others (even if we disagree with them).

Peter Rubec

 

[clarionreef]

Nice one peter...there you go again...

 

[clarionreef]

Dear All,
That last one was ment to be a private message to Peter. I just hit the wrong button thats all. Please accept it as a private message and delete it as a public one. I'd do it but don't know how to self delete!
Steve

 

[PeterIMA]

Steve, To edit a posting click on the Submit button at the bottom of the posting and then click on the Edit button (at the top right to edit/change the posting. After you make the changes, click on the Submit button again.


Peter

 

[Anonymous]

i think that the industry, reefs.org, hobbyists, and the animals we are trying to do our best to care for would far better served if you two whining babies would quit using this forum for peronal, childish, vindictive, petty bickering between yourselves, period.

i also think that both of you should refrain from posting on this forum, and on this bb, unless you have purely factual and constructive things to offer to both

i'm getting quite sick of all this- and you're making yourselves look ridiculous to everyone, from actual cyaniders to noob reefkeepers

i'm sick of reading both of your petty personal rants directing at besmirching each others' character

please either grow up, or stfu

sincerely,

Alan Lavitsky

 

[Frank Lallo]

Mary,
Have to disagree with here's why.
1)most stores get a credit for DOA's.
2) I asked people I knew back in brooklyn if they really made a profit on there fish sale's there answer's were as follow's.

A)There profits came on people repeatedly returning to buy the same fish that either died with in a few weeks of purchase or having to buy a bigger tank because groupers & most Tangs just don't do well in 20 gallon tanks.

B)If they counted on fish sales to keep afloat they would be out of buss in a matter of a few months. The bulk of there profits came from accessories ie.....shelf product.....food, salt, water, test kits, filters things of that nature.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

If we want to see the real picture the survey has to be done including as many variables as possible. Conditions (packing, bagging, total travel time, NH3, pH, O2 etc) are different to each level of the trade. Importers getting fish from overseas (24 hours total travel or more) could be dealing with more fish's stress and mortalities than reatilers. DOA and DAA causes can be completely different. The industry knows that there is a mortality issue that needs to be addressed. The question is ... Are they interested in tackling that problem?

I'm in the industry Jamie. I pack fish for a living, so please spare me the details that I all ready know, and think about DAILY. I see the entire process unfold every week. We continually work on doa/daa issues, its our business to do so. Steve is ALWAYS working with EVERY exporter we deal with, so YES the "industry" is working on it. I know Mary is working on it, as are most of our clients. What are you doing about doa/daa issues? Are you working with the industry in any capacity, to help with the doa/daa issues? What is your job anyways, since you say you do your work for free. Are you involved in any capacity in the import/export of fish? Have you ever even worked within the industry, other then being a " volunteer"?

Greshamh,

I don't like to waste readers time talking about myself.

In short: I've been in the marine aquarium industry since 1987. I consider myself as a successful Marine Biologist- Consultant aquarist.

1)I've worked behind the counter, also trained staff from different stores about water quality criteria acclimatation techniques, medication treatments, quarantine, and husbandry practices, aspects that without doubt helped to keep DAA lower.

2) I have worked with store owners assisting them in importing operations and training staff about how to handle the new arrivals ( marine ornamental fish)

3) I have imported marine ornamentals for my business operation.

4) I conducted a workshop for the Philippine Tropical Fish Exporters Association " Philippine's Marine Ornamental Fish Trade and Its Future" in which the main topics were water quality criteria , handling and holding to collectors level.

5) I conducted many workshops at community level (in the Philippines) the main subject were water quality, handling and holding. Important to diminish damage inflicted to fish while at this level. The result lowering DOA/DAA

6) Speaker during MACNA X . Informing, importers, retailers and hobbyist about water quality, handling and holding at community level, seeking for their support to help to reverse the situation.

7) Speaker Marine aquarium clubs in Canada. Educating hobbyist about different aspects of the trade.

Jaime

 

[Jaime Baquero]

If we want to see the real picture the survey has to be done including as many variables as possible. Conditions (packing, bagging, total travel time, NH3, pH, O2 etc) are different to each level of the trade. Importers getting fish from overseas (24 hours total travel or more) could be dealing with more fish's stress and mortalities than reatilers. DOA and DAA causes can be completely different. The industry knows that there is a mortality issue that needs to be addressed. The question is ... Are they interested in tackling that problem?

I'm in the industry Jamie. I pack fish for a living, so please spare me the details that I all ready know, and think about DAILY. I see the entire process unfold every week. We continually work on doa/daa issues, its our business to do so. Steve is ALWAYS working with EVERY exporter we deal with, so YES the "industry" is working on it. I know Mary is working on it, as are most of our clients. What are you doing about doa/daa issues? Are you working with the industry in any capacity, to help with the doa/daa issues? What is your job anyways, since you say you do your work for free. Are you involved in any capacity in the import/export of fish? Have you ever even worked within the industry, other then being a " volunteer"?

Grashamh

I work with fish every single day.

Jaime

 

[John_Brandt]

Peter,

My criticisms do fall into the two categories you have mentioned, but in no way are they character assassinations or even libelous.

I am skeptical of the mortality averages you have cited in your reports. Firstly, I feel that these figures are exaggerated. Secondly, I see examples that the figures and the survey have been misrepresented in your reports and that contradictory and confusing statements have been made about these figures.

I am also skeptical of the citations you have made in your reports of certain species of fishes that have tested positive for cyanide. I am not being critical of the test results themselves per se, but rather the apparent inability to directly link a positive result with the knowledge that a fish was captured using cyanide. My suggestions that there are possibly numerous alternative explanations for why a fish would test positive seems reasonable. I have previously stated that I have little knowledge and no experience with the tests and testing itself, so I can only form questions of its interpretation.

Concerning my criticisms of the CDT issue you have asked me to "prove it". I have to ask you, prove what? You do know that the burden of proof always falls on the claimant. You have claimed that clownfishes and Mandarinfishes have tested positive for cyanide, but have offered no proof that they were captured with cyanide. You must understand that my criticism and questioning of this has a broader application than its relation to your report. If CDT tests are to be used for law enforcement it would seem necessary to prove that the fish was actually caught with cyanide.

My criticisms and questions about the IMA-CDT may coincide with ones made by MAC, but they are not in any way inspired by them. I have never read a formal or informal criticism of the IMA-CDT by MAC although I know that you have referenced one here. I only know that MAC has stated a "lack of international approval of this test" or something to that effect. Anyway, the process that recently occured with Merck and BFAR includes the IMA-CDT candidacy.

I am certainly willing to continue to engage in civil argument with you, as that is the foundation of the review and advancement of good science.

 

[PeterIMA]

John, Basically, you admit you know nothing abou cyanide testing. Your statements are based on unfounded "impressions". I am willing to mail you the MAC review of the IMA/BFAR SOP manual, the rebuttal document by IMA, copies of the letters by Drs. Gonter, Frant, and Dixon, and the revised SOP manuals prepared by Benita Manipula, myself and other IMA staff (the ISE manual also was prepared with the assistance of Dr. Frant). Several other hobbyists (Mike Kirda, Lee Morey) already have this documentation. I suggest you read the material, consult with whomever you want (I suggest you consult with an analytical chemist). Then, if you wish to discuss the Total Cyanide Ion/ISE method at least we can have an informed discusssion, instead of the unsubstantiated inuendo you and others in the MAC have been spreading.

Peter J. Rubec, Ph.D.
Research Scientist
Florida Fish & Wildlife Conservation Commission
Member of Board of Directors-International Marinelife Alliance

 

[John_Brandt]

Peter,

Of course one doesn't need any knowledge at all of how the CDT works to ask questions about why fish that ought not to have been caught with cyanide tested positive. One wonders about cross-contamination, background levels, repeatability of results on the same sample, etc.

I am not entirely ignorant of this test, I just do not have a detailed technical knowledge of it.

Again my skepticism of the positive results on certain species is not "unsubstantiated innuendo". It is substantiated skepticism.

 

[naesco]

Peter,

Of course one doesn't need any knowledge at all of how the CDT works to ask questions about why fish that ought not to have been caught with cyanide tested positive. One wonders about cross-contamination, background levels, repeatability of results on the same sample, etc.

I am not entirely ignorant of this test, I just do not have a detailed technical knowledge of it.

Again my skepticism of the positive results on certain species is not "unsubstantiated innuendo". It is substantiated skepticism.

It is a science John. The people who developed the test are scientists, the people who write about the tests are scientists and the people who do the tests are scientists.
These are chemists, frequently people with Ph.D.s who have earned their credentials.
The reason why you refuse to believe the tests and the results is a typical industry reaction. Industry does not want to read about cyanide and the effects it has on the reefs and fish they catch with this lethal poison.
Well get used to it because you are going to be reading alot about it as every day more and more industry have the conviction to stand up and say they have had enough.
This forum is a powderkeg of information on what is truly happening. As Mary Middlebrook aptly calls "Industy's dirty little secret."
Stay tuned. There is more.
REEForm

 

[John_Brandt]

The reason why you refuse to believe the tests and the results is a typical industry reaction. Industry does not want to read about cyanide and the effects it has on the reefs and fish they catch with this lethal poison.

Pure baloney, Wayne!

I don't "refuse to believe the tests", I just want answers to certain questions. Industry wants to read about cyanide and its harm to reefs. You seem strangely out of touch with reality. Very out of touch!