The Big Switch

[clarionreef]

Jaime,
If ones sons grow up to become embezzling bastards, then they must be disowned. Steve

 

[Anonymous]

So now we're:

Not sure when this event even took place,

Not sure if it was a deliberate or honest error at the CDT lab

We have no proof of who sponsored the boat or the fisherman but their photos and faces have been posted on the Internet!

Of course they MUST be MAC sponsored. Don't we have to say that at least a hundred times a day on the Internet to follow the movement that won't quit until MAC is dissolved???

What I'm getting from all of this is that trying to solve this ageless problem is hopeless no matter how many organizations work at it and how much money we put into it because of the political corruption in the PI.

So then WHY do we keep beating our heads against the wall? Why not start an International boycott of anything imported from the PI. That'll get their attention!

If the exporters didn't keep selling to the importers, then to our LFSs, we as hobbyists wouldn't be able to keep buying the product that keeps fueling this tragic waste of our marinelife!

If money is the only language spoken in the PI then I see this as the only logical solution.

Nancy

Well said, Nancy. U.S. importers alone could exert incredible pressure on the PI government to actively inforce the laws currently on the books.

-Lee

 

[John_Brandt]

I downsized Ferdinand's photos to improve overall visibility and readability.

Since MAC has been mentioned in the thread I must tell you that there were no MAC Certified collectors involved, or even in the vicinity of the portrayed incident.

 

[Anonymous]

How, How on Gods blue Earth could there be so
few clean fish if there hase been so much good work done by the NGOs
we have been asked to lighten up on?

Because, fundamentally, the problem is not one that any NGO can fix.

The best an NGO can do is provide ideas, alternative stratagies, help with ideas and contacts, set up pilot programs, train, try to provide incentive for change, etc. . This is a problem the PI must address and fix, that has sadly been fueled to a great degree by American Dollars. Why do we expect any North American NGO to be able to fix problems that can only be truly addressed by the PI government?

As has been hammered in me repeatedly in this forum: this is not about clean fish. It's about healthy reefs.

Sincerely,
-Lee

 

[Nancy Swart]

Well said, Nancy. U.S. importers alone could exert incredible pressure on the PI government to actively inforce the laws currently on the books.

-Lee

Except that money seems to be the primary language of the exporters and importers too so we're just as guilty as anybody. These fisherman CANNOT FEED THEIR FAMILIES. And if they try to change their ways, they're killed. Do we blame them? How many exporters/importers/LFSs do you see standing in the welfare lines?

You've all mocked MAC for putting the cart before the horse. Aren't we trying to accomplish reform backwards?

And please don't blame the hobbyists or the LFSs that keep selling these critters. Most haven't been kept educated and informed purposely so as not to impact sales/revenue.

Nancy

 

[Anonymous]

Nancy,

I was chiming in agreement regarding the PI import ban you were talking about. It was inferred that the importers could exert incredible financial pressure.

Well said, Nancy. U.S. importers alone could exert incredible financial pressure on the PI government to actively enforce the laws currently on the books if they were to impose or threaten an import ban if those laws were not enforced.

Better? That's why I beg you to proof my MASNA stuff before it goes public.

 

[tstone]

Nancy
I would wholeheartedly agree with a ban on PI ornamentals. If people are getting killed and we know fish and the reef are getting killed and the PI govement is not going to do something about it then a boycot should take place.

Do we know which wholsalers purchase there fish from PI? Can we trace the path of all these fish so that these companies can be approached?

What can be done to enact this?

 

[mkirda]

Self-deleted.

 

[dizzy]

tstone,
I don't know who would have the moral authority to start a ban that would take food off the table of the honest collectors, as well as the bad ones. Are you going to head up the food drive? If you go back and read some of the old threads you'll see why this is not the best solution.

 

[mkirda]

Nancy
I would wholeheartedly agree with a ban on PI ornamentals. If people are getting killed and we know fish and the reef are getting killed and the PI govement is not going to do something about it then a boycot should take place.

Do we know which wholsalers purchase there fish from PI? Can we trace the path of all these fish so that these companies can be approached?

What can be done to enact this?

Oh, great... Impoverish the people on the fringes.
That will make the government stand up and take notice!

The whole point of this forum is to talk about reform, right?
How is a ban going to institute reform? It will force the fishermen into some other way of getting fish. Such as the food fish. Via spear or cyanide or homemade dynamite. The ban will backfire, making the situation worse.

The only real solution is to fix the problem. Institute net-caught everywhere. The local governments have to own and protect their own reefs. No more tragedy of the commons! Take charge of their own destiny.
This is the only solution proven to work.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[tstone]

I don't know who would have the moral authority to start a ban that would take food off the table of the honest collectors, as well as the bad ones. Are you going to head up the food drive? If you go back and read some of the old threads you'll see why this is not the best solution.

dizzy
I know I'm late into this conversation, so I don't have all the facts. I can't help but be concerned for the health of the reefs. But when people are also getting killed over this very issue someting has to be done.

I know about the net fund (I donated) and have read some on this subject but not enough. I don't think there is a solution that everyone agrees with.

But somewhere there has to be a solution.

Perhaps its the nets and training and keeping a constant preasure on the cyanide users, perhaps its a boycot. I am not sure. I will read more of the other threads and talk to other people like Mary Middlebrook and then rejoin the conversation.

Thanks

 

[naesco]

So now we're:

Not sure when this event even took place,

Not sure if it was a deliberate or honest error at the CDT lab

We have no proof of who sponsored the boat or the fisherman but their photos and faces have been posted on the Internet!

Of course they MUST be MAC sponsored. Don't we have to say that at least a hundred times a day on the Internet to follow the movement that won't quit until MAC is dissolved???

What I'm getting from all of this is that trying to solve this ageless problem is hopeless no matter how many organizations work at it and how much money we put into it because of the political corruption in the PI.

So then WHY do we keep beating our heads against the wall? Why not start an International boycott of anything imported from the PI. That'll get their attention!

If the exporters didn't keep selling to the importers, then to our LFSs, we as hobbyists wouldn't be able to keep buying the product that keeps fueling this tragic waste of our marinelife!

If money is the only language spoken in the PI then I see this as the only logical solution.

Nancy

MAC deserves the full support of industry as IMO they are the answer to stopping the criminal practices involving cyanide.
If MAC is not successful because of industry's lack of support, you can be assured that access to the North American market will be closed to Philippine and Indonesian marine fish trade.
I believe they see the writing on the wall. If they don`t, they and the stateside purveyors will be out of business.

 

[mkirda]

Self-deleted.

 

[tstone]

The only real solution is to fix the problem. Institute net-caught everywhere. The local governments have to own and protect their own reefs. No more tragedy of the commons! Take charge of their own destiny.
This is the only solution proven to work.

Mike
who legaly owns the reefs now? The federal Gov?

Can and will they take charge of there destiny or will they themselves be poisened by the cyanide fisherman?

I think you are correct that if the ornamental trade is boycotted the fisherman will switch to food fishing. I guess it would only be natural for them to do this to feed there families.

 

[horge]

Ferdie,

One of these days we ought to get together.
We could swap horror stories about this issue ---the guy with the best (or worst, actually) story doesn't have to pay for his beer. But I make too light of a very serious matter.

This is exactly what I meant about not trusting BFAR, no matter how ethical the lab staff are. The old switcheroo... lumang gimik ma 'yan, and the ONLY way to cut through the smoke and mirrors is to personally escort the samples, and SIT ON BFAR in person- until the certificate is coughed up.

Ferdie, kapag lumampas ng 48 hours ang hintay sa resulta, you KNOW something's not right. I do understand that the CDT lab in Main can periodically get ovewhelmed with grouper samples from time to time, and if the applicant is a heavyweight, then that 48 hours figure mightn't hold (After all, foodfish properly are a bigger, priority concern for BFAR, 'di ba?), but still...

IIRC, Mark said 24 hours is normally plenty of time to allow for other tasks to get the test done, and then it's another day for the paperwork to get issued. I agree you can trust Sandy and her staff, but if non-BFAR ang transport ng specimen, and then non-BFAR pa rin ang pickup of the test results... you're wide open to what just happened.

Tell you what.
The next time you have a sample you want to send, either get BFAR personnel or deputies to fetch it, and let me know. Our group will see if we can't help babysit the test here in BFAR QC so nobody filches the correct results.

The result won't even have to leave the lab for you to get it, 'tsong.
Fax agad, even before the ink is dry ---let's see them try to intercept that.



horge

--------------------
Others,

Banning Philippine ornamentals?
How about banning reef-keeping?

Would it make a difference regarding poisoning of reefs?
Considering that the overwhelming majority of cyanide use is for live foodfish (grouper) capture, not much. It might make you feel better knowing that you're not bankrolling the poisoning ---and maybe it's worth consigning the growing netcaught movement to oblivion (and then cyanide capture goes on... smuggling the specimens to Manado or Taiwan prior to LAX, Frankfurt, etc.).

Rather than cure a patient, easier to just euthanize?
Even with all the positive, hard earned gains... you want the easy out.
Sheesh, is it possible you haven't even put in a cent's worth of effort where it counts and YOU want to tell US it's too hard?

I'm sorry, but the only thing a ban serve would is to ease your consciences.
It would do next to nothing to save Philippine reefs.

You know what?
Ask anyone who saw the reef denudation of the mid-80's to 90's in, say, the coral-rich eastern half of Balayan Bay in Batangas. Ask them if there isn't a marked improvement in reef health today. Success in Batangas is a slow matter, but it's there to last.

Keeping a reef tank takes patience and perseverance,
often in the face of repeated frustration.
Why expect saving the reefs to be any different?





horge

 

[mkirda]

Mike
who legaly owns the reefs now? The federal Gov?

Can and will they take charge of there destiny or will they themselves be poisened by the cyanide fisherman?

I think you are correct that if the ornamental trade is boycotted the fisherman will switch to food fishing. I guess it would only be natural for them to do this to feed there families.

I'll try to get the codes/laws in hand to find out.
There are ways that tribes can claim areas as ancestral domains.
This is the best solution for some of the poorest of the poor.

See the other thread I'll open on ELAC.
Good reading there.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

Horge,

For me, discussion of an import ban is more of a debate on whether North American financial pressure can be exerted to positively affect the status quo on the other side of the globe. If filthy lucre fuels the foul beast of destruction, is there some way to control the beast by controling its fuel supply?

...Would it [a boycott] make a difference regarding poisoning of reefs? Considering that the overwhelming majority of cyanide use is for live foodfish (grouper) capture, not much...

This sounds like a good point that Kalk has been trying to make for a long time. Serves to continually remind one that hobby reform does not necessarilly equate to healthy reef ecosystems.

NGO's can toil vainly all day. Miles of netting can be sent. Until the PI government clamps down on the issues of destructive collection techniques things will not significantly improve.

Is it possible for a bunch of outsiders (such as NGO's) to really make any significant difference in a culture that we may never fully understand?

Appears that ecological reform first and formost has to be a self motivated, bootstrap effort of the PI govenment and it's people for it to work.

Respectfully,
-Lee

 

[PeterIMA]

I find this discussion rather depressing. Perhaps you should consider that there are already at least 1900 collectors trained to use nets (about 800 trained by Haribon/OVI and 100 trained by IMA). The results were not perfect but many of these collectors still use nets, and have trained others. So, even if no further net-training occurs. it has contributed to an improvement in the Philippines. Many seem to forget that the problem in Indonesia is much worse concerning cyanide fishing.

Horge and Kalk have claimed that the problem is mostly associated with the food fishery. The data that I analyzed from the IMA/BFAR CDT database for the Philippines indicated that 44% of the food fish, and about 25% of the marine aquarium fish tested had cyanide present in their tissues. Considering that there are more aquarium fish collectors than food fish fishers using cyanide in the Philippines, I believe the problem is about equal for both fisheries.

There is still a significant cyanide fishing problem that governments in the Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Vietnam, and Papua New Guinea need to address to protect their fisheries and their coral reefs. They need to do it, to protect their marine resources; not just to help some aquarist have a rare fish or coral in an aquarium.

Economic incentives to pay collectors more for net caught fish are needed to wean them away from cyanide. Ferdinand Cruz has been doing this by training net-collectors and linking them with companies willing to provide the incentives. He is succeeding. Even without funding from the MAC, BFAR, or from the aquarium trade progress is being made.

Steve Robinson continues to blast NGOs (like IMA, OVI, and the MAC). Are they as corrupt as he claims? I have been involved in this from the beginning. I helped to found IMA in the USA, Canada, and the Philippines (along with Steve Robinson, Dr. Vaughan Pratt, and Dr. Don McAllister). I disagree with Steve's opinion that IMA and Haribon/OVI have wasted or embezzeled grant funds. Steve has made sacrifices, but so have others such as myself and Dr. Pratt. Rather than bashing NGOs the trade and hobby should be supporting them.

It should be noted that the members of the aquarium trade and hobby have not raised much funding to support efforts by NGOs. Most of the funding has come from US and Canadian agencies like USAID, IDRC, CIDA, and from foundations like Packard and MacArthur. So, despite all the rhetoric pro and con on this forum and others like Reef Central, the hobby and trade groups like PIJAC or OFI can't claim much credit for doing their part to help solve these problems.

Is the situation hopeless? I think there are still reasons to be optimistic. Funding can be found. It may take a while. People need to stop back stabbing and bickering, and work together to find solutions that benefit the coral reefs, the collectors, the trade, and the aquarium hobby.

Peter Rubec

 

[horge]

Horge,
For me, discussion of an import ban is more of a debate on whether North American financial pressure can be exerted to positively affect the status quo on the other side of the globe. If filthy lucre fuels the foul beast of destruction, is there some way to control the beast by controling its fuel supply?

Ban the hobby worldwide, and police the ban heavily, otherwise, there will always be a buyer.
Ban fish-eating while you're at it, too.

NGO's can toil vainly all day. Miles of netting can be sent. Until the PI government clamps down on the issues of destructive collection techniques things will not significantly improve.

True.
But keep in mind that Filipinos (and their government) have bigger problems to take care of right now. It's a credit that earnest effort and resources are devoted to combatting cyanide at all, at a time when the whole country is under assault from without.

Is it possible for a bunch of outsiders (such as NGO's) to really make any significant difference in a culture that we may never fully understand?

Actually, the culture ought to be 90% familiar to Americans, save that there's more tolerance and forgivenes on hand when someone effs up. Something about Catholic Christian forgiveness, I think..

Are we timid in combatting cyanide?
I think we simply have scant desire to rock a rickety boat that's already fighting heavy seas. In such times maybe we need every hand on deck, even those who piss on it. Give us calmer waters, and we'll make them lick their own mess up, then throw them to the sharks.

Appears that ecological reform first and formost has to be a self motivated, bootstrap effort of the PI govenment and it's people for it to work.

Absolutely.
That is the slow, hard grind I've been talking about ---making people aware, then encouraging them to get involved-- this has been slow but steady work over the past twenty-plus years.

At least everyone and his dog knows what cyanide does, as opposed to the partial ignorance of the early 80's, and a lot of fishing communities police their own stomping grounds for anyone trying to poison their source of food and livelihood.

Batangas and Pangasinan are the perfect examples---
After twenty plus years of hard work from all angles, it seems the cyanide problem is NEVER going away completely, and it can be exceedingly frustrating. But if we step back and dispassionately track cyanide use and general reef health over those twenty plus years, the progress then looks pretty stunning. Bataan is pretty much getting here, too.

Much ike CDT results, it's never going to be absolutely zero.
Pandora's box is already open, and cyanide abuse can't completely be stuffed back in (sort of like cocaine, reality TV, and Jerry Springer-type programs). Howver we CAN work to reduce it to very, very low levels.
Once very low levels become the living default nationwide, maybe we can proceed to dream of absolute zero.

Palawan has already been engaged on multipe fronts, and I suspect it will take at least ten years of hard slog to bring cyanide use down to Batangas levels. Zamboanga and central Visayas are the real tough spots ---too many escape routes, overlapping jurisdictions and smuggling ops.

The guys working on this at ground zero really need all the help and encouragement you can muster. If you are sure that your dollar goes to those people, and not to some NGO bureaucracy's office carpeting, then by all means, give.

An encouraging word ought to be easier on the wallet.






horge

P.S. There are nearly 11,000 live grouper-collectors in the Leyte-Bicol region alone (virtually all of them using sodyum) as far as I can determine --and obviously including the seasonal freelancers. How many more hunt grouper in the richer reefs around ALL of gigantic Mindanao? Palawan? Quezon? Oh wait, I forgot all of Central Visayas, which includes the large islands of Negros, Bohol, runtish Cebu...

 

[MaryHM]

It should be noted that the members of the aquarium trade and hobby have not raised much funding to support efforts by NGOs.

I don't just hand my hard earned money over to anyone. Before I part with it, I want to know exactly what it is being used for. I'm not interested in flying NGO executives all over the world to "look" at the problems they are trying to fix. I'm not interested in putting them up at the nicest hotels, feeding them and their guests expensive dinners, and paying them fat salaries that allow them to have fancy digs in Hawaii. I'm especially not interested in doing this for organizations that have proven in the past that they can't be trusted to do the right thing without a knife being held to their throat (be it bad PR or the threat of losing funding). If an organization can ever prove to me that they understand the problems and have a realistic solution in hand, then they would get my support. I have served on the board of directors of two separate organizations (and given both organizations my full support, time, and energy) in search of such a thing and have yet to find it. I'm not interested in playing the reform game. I'm interested in winning it. Find me an organization with that attitude, and they will have my support.