The Big Switch

[Jaime Baquero]

Hi all,

What we did right? We worked on three different projects:

1) Netsman Project
2) Environmental education and sustainable livelihoods
3) Eco-Marketing Fair Trade for Aquarium Fish Collectors

The most relevant results of those projects were:

*Close to 900 fisherfolks trained to use nets instead of cyanide. A good number of those are the best fish collectors in the Philippines and are now trainers. Most of those collectors are still using nets

*The project produced a good number of community organizers which are working today with different organizations around the country.

*Coastal communities created sanctuaries where no fishing is allowed. This under the Environmental education and sustainable livelihood program.

*Women from the communities got involved in the developmnet of small businesses

* Fisherfolks got education about water quality, handling and holding techniques at community level.

* Fisherfolks got organized in a Federation and developed an exporting venture.

What went wrong?

We didn't get the support from the marine aquarium industry, including aquarium hobbyists, this lack of support was the capital factor that slow down the process and contributed to the deterioration of the situation in the Philippines. We had to work with very little money to tackle a huge problem. We did our best.

We must stop hurting honest people that have and had worked in the Philippines for many years.

Personally I think that we had had done better if we had gotten the support from the industry.

Why the industry didn't support in the past? Was it because a matter of personalities involved in those programs? Was it because of rivalities?

We at OVI were very sincere and honest with what we were doing. Is because of that I can not tolerate false accusations. The Haribon Foundation was our partner and they did a good job considering the fact that we were working with limited funds. Haribon's staff was competent and knew what they have to do. I was working there for three years an didn't see any wrong doing. Their financial reports were audited and the money budgeted went to the allocated items.

Jaime Baquero

 

[clarionreef]

Good morning,
If we're keeping score,
OVI claims 800
IMA claims 1,000
MAC claims 500 or so?[ estimate]
plus at least 500 from divers already using nets...
---------
Theres no room for any I trained in the most intensive of all trainings. These totals have already covered everyone and solved the problem. We can now close this thread and go home.
Seriously...if the numbers claimed are correct that is.
Steve

 

[mkirda]

* Fisherfolks got organized in a Federation and developed an exporting venture.

What went wrong?

We didn't get the support from the marine aquarium industry, including aquarium hobbyists, this lack of support was the capital factor that slow down the process and contributed to the deterioration of the situation in the Philippines. We had to work with very little money to tackle a huge problem. We did our best.

Jaime,

I see two assumptions here, which would lead to this not working.

1) That collectors have experience keeping fish. That collectors have experience running an export facility. That collectors have the contacts necessary to run that business.

2) That hobbyists would have anything to do with this process at all...

While the intentions were great and I believe wholeheartedly sincere, the results were somewhat predictable.

On this side, I have heard of horrendous DOA rates from wholesalers who tried to work with this group. People here were willing to take a risk and try the fish, but most of them took a bath financially from all accounts I have heard.

I do not think that collectors should be running an export facility. These are two entirely different skills... Undoubtedly, some could cross over, given the chance. I'm sorry that this did not happen.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
P.S. Meant constructively...

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Mike,

Your assumptions are wrong. Collectors were not running the holding facilities. Ramon Atayde a former exporter in the Philippines was running it. He had experience and helped the Federation with his knowledge. Have you had experience exporting fish or running an aquarium room in a simple pet shop? If the answer is yes you know very well all the problems when starting a new system. It takes time to get rid of the bugs. If the answer is NO you know that it takes time to stablish a simple aquarium.
Ramon Atayde had contacts and knew how to run the holding facility.

The Chicago Aquarium Society was the only organization that considered supporting the PMP, but it was just a consideration, they didn't get any trial shipment.

PMP's target were retailers an importers overseas.

The PMP (Federation of Fish Collectors) was promoted by different means including FAMA, Tropical Fish, OFI, public presentations as Aquarama in Singapore, MACNA X in Los Angeles, our Bulletin Sea Wind and direct contacts with retail stores in Canada and the US.

About the "horrendous DOA" that you heard about that is "gossip". There were shipments with high mortality at the beginning (15-25%). I personally monitored shipments when arrived to Toronto and Montreal (volunteer work) and mortality on arrival was under 5%. There were other shipments that got lost or forgotten by the air carrier in its warehouse in Chicago. They forgot to put the fish in the connection flights more than twice.

One of the main problems people experienced was that they didn't have the right connection fligts to get their fish.

Only one fish dealer in the United States got a trial shipment from PMP. People talking about the "horrendous DOA" lied to you. Why? Ask them.

PMP was a small pilot project that didn't work out. Other problems PMP had include:

1) a typhon flooded the holding facility. The work was delayed 3 months.
2) exporters blackmailed collectors delivering fish to PMP
3) oposition from large exporter in the Philippines, which at the same time are importers in the states.
etc

There are many facts that most of the readers do not know about the efforts made by NGOs to help the fisherfolks in the Philippines.

What I do believe is that we did a good job. Other exporting operations were developed after PMP, among them we have, AMRI and Marivi's operation. I know Marivi is helping fish collectors and that was what we wanted to do. We know that many fish collectors part of our program are selling their fish to her.... that is good news. Many fisherfolks are using nets because of our effort in the Philippines. Isn't that something that merits a positive word from you people?



Jaime Baquero

 

[mkirda]

Only one fish dealer in the United States got a trial shipment from PMP. People talking about the "horrendous DOA" lied to you. Why? Ask them.

I will do so, Jaime.
It is possible that I mixed up PMP and AMRI.
At the time I spoke to the importers, I may not have been clear on the fact that these were two separate entities. :wink:

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Nancy Swart]

Jaime,

Thanks so much for giving us a summary of so much of the POSITIVE and constructive work that's been done. I know personally that you've put years of time and effort into these projects, without pay.

In defense of the Chicago Club, I was a member at the time. We were not told who the organization was that we were dealing with. Also, it wasn't clear if what we were doing would be illegal. Had our President, at the time, provided us with the information and details we had asked for, we would've wholeheartedly supported the cause. Had MASNA been notified, I'm sure all of our members clubs would've supported this too.

Mike...correct me if I'm wrong but all I remember our Prez telling us is that we had a chance of getting some fish cheap from the PI if we pooled an order. We had tons of questions he couldn't answer as to how this all would work but got no answers and so it wasn't brought up again.

Nancy

 

[mkirda]

Mike...correct me if I'm wrong but all I remember our Prez telling us is that we had a chance of getting some fish cheap from the PI if we pooled an order. We had tons of questions he couldn't answer as to how this all would work but got no answers and so it wasn't brought up again.

Nancy

Nancy,

That's about how I recall it as well...
Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[MaryHM]

I have a question that I'd like for Jaime, Peter, and Steve to respond to. How many collectors do you estimate are in the Philippines? I've heard the number 3000. Is that anywhere near correct?

 

[clarionreef]

Mary,
Yes thats a good estimate.
I've heard that from a couple of Filipino sources and its probably true give or take some hundreds.
Steve

 

[PeterIMA]

Mary,

I would guess there are 3 to 4 thousand aquarium fish collectors. I have used 4,000 in my Net-Caught Cyanide-Free paper based on a published paper by an Anonymous writer (1998) who described the Haribon Program in the Live Reef Fish Information Bulletin. In my recent OFI paper I estimated 1900 aqauarium fish collectors had received net-training from Haribon/OVI and IMA. Horge stated recently there were 11,000 fishermen using cyanide to capture groupers. Ferdinand told me he had data that indicated there were about 3-4 thousand grouper fishermen. I think all of these estimates are based more on speculation rather than hard data.

Until fish collectors are licensed, we can not be more precise. The number of collectors may actually be going down, due to market conditions and depletion/degredation of the reefs.

An indication of this decline is based on the estimates of the number of live fish export companies. In 1988, there were 65 export companies. In 1998 there were 35 (based on a list I obtaind from BFAR and IMA's inventory of export permits). I would guess there are presently about 30 export companies. Perhaps, John Brandt can provide better estimates.

Peter Rubec

 

[MaryHM]

So according to your scoreboard, Steve, which was based on Peter and Jaime's own numbers, theoretically we shouldn't even have a problem because the VAST majority of divers are trained already. Well, hooray!! I'm off to order those tiny clown triggers I saw on a list from a supplier that supposedly isn't "net caught"!! With that many divers trained, my chances are excellent that I won't end up with a cyanide caught one! 8O

(The above post was made with a sprinkle of sarcasm, a dash of wit, and a heaping tablespoon of skepticism. It will be in the receipe book horge and I are working on. )

 

[Anonymous]

AMRI's doa/daa wasn't bad, definitly not horrendous. They were starting to slip when we stopped with them though. I processed many shipments from them at the last wholesaler I worked for. They always thru in some token CDT certificates, testing chromis and such. I'd say out of 30 CDT's I saw from them, only one was a target species (Koran).
BTW, weren't AMRI's boys caught with cyanide in the boat :evil: ?

Jamie, I believe Ecovitality's "Project Goodfish" was operating at the same time as PMP, did they(PMP) ever approach them? How many shipments were they (PMP) able to get off the ground? Sounds like you only approached the US/Canada market, why didn't you try for the Euro market also?

I second Mary's call for peoples estimates of collectors (divers) in the PI, I've also heard figures ranging from 3k to 5k. Horge had mentioned something about 5k on one island alone (food fishers, some haft to be cross over though).

Gresham

 

[Len]

(The above post was made with a sprinkle of sarcasm, a dash of wit, and a heaping tablespoon of skepticism. It will be in the receipe book horge and I are working on. )

Sprinkle of sarcasm? I thought the lid popped off and all of it went into the mix That's gonna be one spicey recipe you guys are cooking up

 

[Anonymous]

Guess my post to to long, thanks Steve and Peter.

 

[John_Brandt]

Hello Moderator, et al,
Should this continue? If baited, should I not answer with more specificity??
I have no problem with a free wheeling discussion of the past, but there seems to be more interest in "moving on" then finding out what went wrong.
I suggested a totally different thread on Haribon to reveal all about their sabatoge of the reform movement at its most critical juncture. Is it better to let them get away with it [ actually they have] and just move on?
Jaimes just begging for the truth and I'd like to give it to him...but not if the good people here don't care to see it...and not if it harms the progress of more relevant discussion among more relevant contributors.
Sincerely, Steve

Steve, there are 2 moderators here now.

The general decorum desired here is one of civility and good nature. Personal attacks and character assasinations just won't be tolerated. I'm not sure if the readership here cares much about seeing two (or more) people go at each other on past issues.

In many ways, pointing fingers into the past misses the big picture. The use of cyanide to capture aquarium fish in the Philippines is an ongoing crisis. The programs that were implemented in the past to remedy this had limited effect. Something(s) has to be different this time.

Concerning what you can get away with in here in front of the moderators: We have not established steadfast rules on being specific in arguments and discussions. I cannot speak for Rover, but I am inclined to liberally allow for dialogue that does not cross an imaginary line into personal attacks. Don't use ad hominem argument here and you will be fine. Where is that imaginary line? I'll let you know when you've crossed it. Getting complaints is likely to motivate me as well.

Everyone should think about what they are posting. Readers should always know that when individuals and organizations that do not post here are criticized they cannot defend themselves here by offering rebuttal. Reefs.org is a relatively open forum, and it certainly cannot protect you from libel accusations or lawsuits.

 

[PeterIMA]

The IMA trained 1100 aquarium fish collectors. If Haribon trained 900 (rather than the 800 they reported to me previously) there were 2000 divers trained to use nets. The question is how many are there now? There has been a lot of backsliding to cyanide use because it takes more effort to use nets and the exporters would not pay more for net-caught fish.

There were presently about 250 collectors trained by either Haribon or IMA that participated in the MAC Feasability Study and CAMP trainings. Most of these collectors are still using nets and selling to either the MAC Certified exporters or to about three other companies who are selling close to 100% net-caught fish. There are about another 250 net-caught collectors collecting for the three companies from other areas in the Philippines (where Ferdinand has been conducting community organizing). Hence, I believe that there are close to 500 collectors involved in with these companies (four MAC Certified and 3 non-certified but makin the effort to be net-caught).

In addition there are an unknown number of net-collectors who sell to other export companies. I have collaborated for about three years with Asian Marine Resources International (AMRI). This company is mostly net-caught. They sell to Europe and to a chain of retail stores in Europe. They sold fish to EcoVitality. They had disease problems initially. These problems were solved and their mortality (DOA+DAA on average to the Canadian buyers over the past two years has been 3.7%. This is comparable to what one of the MAC Certified exporters also has (importer mortality rate to US or Canada).

I believe we could easily have over 1000 active net-collectors, if other export companies would pay more for the net-caught fish. It is not clear what increase in pricing to the collectors from exporters is needed. The 10% I previously mentioned is not enough. I believe it is possible for exporters to pay an additonal 25-50% over the present recommended PFTEA pricing. I believe this is justified since the net-collectors can deliver fish to the exporters with 2-5% mortality, rather than about 30% mortality that occurs (on average) with cyanide-caught fish. There also has been a marked devaluation of the Philippine peso from about 30 pesos to the US dollar to over 50 pesos to the US dollar. The exporters have not been willing to pass on the changes in the exchange rate in what they pay to the collecters. Economic incentives to collectors would go a long way to solving the cyanide fishing problem.

Is further net-training needed? Probably. However, Ferdinand wants to match the number of collectors to the productivity of the reefs (low in man areas at present). So, there needs to be underwater surveys to determine how many collectors each municipality will license in their municipal/barangay waters. This may necessitate fewer collectors to allow the reefs to recover in marine sanctuaries being set up by the municipal or barangay Fisheries and Aquatic Resources Management Councils (FARMCs).

We also need to have "upgrade training" for the existing net-collectors to teach them other capture techniques such as the use of hand nets. Quite a bit of the funds raised recently by Mary Middlebrook and Mike King will go toward the purchase of a special fine mesh nylon netting material needed to make hand nets rather than for the purchase of barrier netting. Some of the funding will go to purchase special weights and floats needed to make barrier nets (M. Middlebrook personal communication).

We need to consider that funding should be raised to transfer some collectors to other livelihoods (like farming mud or marine algae, and the culture of coral frags and/or giant clams for reef restoration and export to the aquarium trade). The solutions are not as simple as just implementing net-training.

Having hobbyists and members of the trade raise funds to purchase nets and/or for net-training is OK. But, there will be other funding obtained (from governments and foundations) for programs that NGOs will implement.

Peter Rubec

Peter Rubec

 

[Anonymous]

Who are the largest US importers of fish for the marine hobby?

Obviously, I'm talking about the 'movers and shaker' that could apply pressure if they worked together to help with reform of any kind.

I'd also like a list of the organizations working toward reform. Again, 'major players' only. So far I know of OVI, Haribon (still exists?), IMA, MAC, CORL, MANSA, and...?

Thanks...

Peace,

Chip

 

[MaryHM]

Major importers are:

Florida: Segrest Farms, All Seas

California: Sea Dwelling Creatures, ERI, Quality, All Seas, Underwater World

 

[mkirda]

I'd also like a list of the organizations working toward reform. Again, 'major players' only. So far I know of OVI, Haribon (still exists?), IMA, MAC, CORL, MANSA, and...?

MASNA, not MANSA.

There are a number of organizations within the Philippines that also help out in a broad fashion. ELAC (which I mentioned in its own thread) is one example.

I have a whole long list of them that the fishermen in Coron worked with.
Most are completely unknown here, and not all of them work strictly on marine issues. ELAC, for example, worked with a village in Bohol to stop illegal dirt hauling. Apparently, one of the village heads was involved in construction and was using trucks to haul away dirt from several of the famed 'Chocolate Hills', thereby destroying the very landmarks that make Bohol famous...

More information on these NGOs will come out in short order, I'm sure.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

Mary, of the 6 listed, who'd you say imports the most PI, and do they have hands in the export company outa PI? BTW, Barnett isn't considered a major importer on the eat coast?