Do Frank Lallo's Mortality Statistics Reflect Reality?

[Anonymous]

Which part? The first paragraph asking if its OK to bash certain NGO's and not others, or the last paragraph about me pushing you over the edge? Threatenning to sue is as close to the edge as you can get Peter. To protect your feelings, I'll edit the post, and remove the last paragraph.

 

[mkirda]

John,

Question for you:

1) Have you seen the entire results of the study?

2) If not, how can you draw a single conclusion?

3) What other study can you base your conclusions on?

As I see things, Frank as posted only a small percentage of the study, maybe 10% of it. So far, the numbers are interesting in that they do not support the aggregate averages quoted. This has seemingly made everyone jump to a conclusion that the other 90% of the data will look exactly the same, and that the Frank and Peter made a mathematical error somewhere.

This is utter silliness.

Until Frank is able to finish posting the data, we have no idea what the numbers will really look like.

As for the other questions and/or issues with this data...
Every single poll you have ever taken suffers from the same problem, John. You could give flippant answers to every poll too.

But do you realize what you are suggesting?
That Frank has fabricated data on over 100 species of fish. That the data are made to order to illustrate an agenda. That this agenda was made by the IMA, and is being put forth here as an elaborate hoax. For what possible purpose, John? It doesn't even make any sense!

I am reminded of an X-Files quote: "That's why we like you, Mulder. Your ideas are even weirder than ours." (I think it was Frohike, but don't recall...)

I can't even begin to understand why this whole Rubec witchhunt is even remotely relevant. Or why it was transferred to Frank. Call me silly, but what does this do to further the agenda, John? Aren't we supposed to be talking about how to make the industry (and the hobby) better?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

Look........... I Like MAC ..........I like IMA...........I thjink Peter is honest ...........Wrong .....but honest .............what some of us have a problem with is , the failure to comprehend our questions.......There are a hundred times more yellow tangs imported then purple...{look up theUSF&Wlife} numbers }......Green chromis are the Number one imported fish ..yet .......more freakin meleagris puffers are imported by these stores? ...........NO , a real world study must have real world data..........do it correctly or keep shut until you do , why in the world was a 60% DOA given if the study has yet to be computed? I have not seen one questioned answered , only deflected.................why?

 

[PeterIMA]

Kalk, It was not 60% DOA the 60% represents DOA+DAA for the east coast (an average).
Peter

 

[dizzy]

Green chromis are the Number one imported fish ..yet .......more freakin meleagris puffers are imported by these stores?

Actually kalk the study listed Ostracion meleagris which is a boxfish and not a puffer. It is sometimes called the blue spotted box fish. Nice looking fish, but not easy to keep. O. meleagris = 530 S. splendidus (green mandarin) = 497 No way those numbers are right. Not in a million years.
BTW I came up with 1691 green chromis which is quite a few more than the blue boxes.

 

[mkirda]

No way those numbers are right. Not in a million years.

So what do you chalk it up to, Mitch?
Fraud? Mistake? Hoax? Flippant answers from lying store owners?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[dizzy]

No way those numbers are right. Not in a million years.

So what do you chalk it up to, Mitch?
Fraud? Mistake? Hoax? Flippant answers from lying store owners?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Mike your guess is as good as mine. All I'm doing is pointing out what I consider to be a serious discrepancy in normal stocking percentages of marine fish. When you have people like Wayne Ryan waiting to pounce on this extremely high DOA data to hurt the industry, I feel it is my duty to point out that the data doesn't make sense. If it were the MAC,IMA, Ocean Voice, Steve, Frank, Peter, Paul, or Mary I would show them the same favor.

 

[mkirda]

Mike your guess is as good as mine. All I'm doing is pointing out what I consider to be a serious discrepancy in normal stocking percentages of marine fish. When you have people like Wayne Ryan waiting to pounce on this extremely high DOA data to hurt the industry, I feel it is my duty to point out that the data doesn't make sense.

Mitch,

My point is that I'm not guessing, period.

I'm waiting (somewhat) patiently for Frank to finish posting his data.

Peter has been accused of fraud based on Frank posting 10% of the data...
Frank has been accused of fraud and/or a hoax. And this is based on... heresay near as I can figure.

Understand something here, people.
There has only been one survey ever done.
For all its perceived faults, there is nothing, and I mean NOTHING else to compare it to.
Because your experience does not jive with it does not mean it is not true.
Because Frank didn't call your store doesn't mean he didn't call others.
For all the talk about 'mathematical proof' that they couldn't possibly be true, haven't you all spoken about how dog food and fish supplies have the largest profit percentages in your stores anyway? IOW, the losses could be made up by dry goods while the store breaks even on the fish.

With all the accusations flying around, I'd be afraid of saying something libelous... There is a difference between having a gut feeling that something couldn't possibly be right and expressing that, and crossing the line claiming outright fraud. Be careful out there- you are still responsible for what you say.

And finally, Frank... Thanks for posting the numbers. Please continue.
Leave the answers for later. You can ignore the peanut gallery until you finish. They will just have to learn to live with it.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

Double-post deleted.

 

[Frank Lallo]

I will continue to post the numbers as of tomorrow, they will begin again. 6-10 more species bepending on how I feel.

Frankie.

 

[Frank Lallo]

To answer your question as to the numbers, Not everybody like you buys 8 or 9 saltwater fish over a month period, The are store's in Ny, Chicago, La and a few other place's that order by the hundereds. And alot more excotic's then you have seen in your life time. I find it interesting the comments coming from a man that told me on the phone that he doesn't deal that much in saltwter fish because they are a pain in the ass to keep alive and I don't sell all that many. The ribbon eels are a classic example one store in brooklyn when they where the rage fish or fish of the month club as I call it ordered 50 of the damn things because everybody just had to have one.

Frankie.

 

[Frank Lallo]

If you were one of the smart ones I congrats you, you saved god knows how many ribbons from biting the dust. Many others were and to this day are not so smart, all they care about is the Money.

Frankie

 

[dizzy]

Frankie,
If your talking about me you got it wrong. What I said is we don't carry fish that we know are a pain in the ass to keep alive. We tend to carry stuff that can survive the two weeks to a month or more that it might take to sell them. Believe it or not we want them to live for our customers as well. Having fish wipeouts gets people to drop out of the hobby. When they drop out you lose food sales, salt sales, filter cartridges sales, additives sales etc. If any stores are intentionally selling fish that they know will die so they can sell the customer a replacement fish it is a very shortsighted, flawed strategy. We are also breeding two species of clownfish in our store and have four other species set up as pairs. We have also raised bangaii cardinals and green serpents stars as well as the usual frags. I believe external parasites like marine ich are still the number one killer of fish. Our freshwater section makes us more money than our salt. I have been keeping marine fish for over 18-years and it still bothers me everytime a fish dies.

BTW I don't care if you like people pointing out discrepancies in your data or not. I calls them like I sees them.

 

[JeremyR]

Come on mitch.. I thought you were always vague and didn't allow yourself to be pinned down.. heh.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Well, my family on a good week exports more fish in one week ........then your total surveypossibly included ..........{"except for box fish and ribbon eels"} :roll: ...also The wholesaler here in Atlanta services 200+ hundred plus fish stores in the surounding southeast weekly........and they import less then{ forty} ribbon eels or O.meleagris........per year........infact the three they have on hand now,have been there for three weeks.......so the demand is not there Alive or dead.............I think the survey should point out that this was the north-east region..........the deep south and Fla have beter importing and exporting then the northeast............most of the Fla.wholesalers trade carribean fish with the west coast.....and this would not be so if the Pacific fish were comming in DOA or DAA.........Seagrest is now undernew ownership..........but seven years ago they would have had a strong hold on the east coast..........How many of the reporting stores stated that they recieved fish from Florida as apposed to the west LAX

 

[Anonymous]

We've waited more than a week for data... the assertion of 80%+ mortality from collection to retail has not been defended at this point.

For those with the data; how about posting all pertinent data for just the top ten retail marine ornamental species?

-Lee

 

[Anonymous]

From John Brandt's quiz, here are the top 10:

1) Green chromis (Chromis viridis)
2) Yellow tang (Zebrasoma flavescens)
3) Ocellaris clownfish (Amphiprion ocellaris)
4) Blue damselfish (Chrysiptera cyanea)
5) 3-stripe damselfish (Dascyllus aruanus)
6) Domino (3-spot) damselfish (Dascyllus trimaculatus)
7) Yellowtail damselfish (Chrysiptera parasema)
8> 4-stripe damselfish (Dascyllus melanurus)
9) Cleaner wrasse (Labroides dimidiatus)
10) Mandarinfish (Synchiropus splendidus

 

[naesco]

Dizzy is 100% correct as are the horriffic statistics presented by Frank.

This information which industry in this post attempts to discredit is cannon fodder in REEForm's war against cyanide fishing in the Philippines and Indonesia and its supporters there and stateside.

Further, this data IMO, will provide key evidence with Cyanide Detection Tests (CDT), to suppoort federal indictments against those who may be in violation of the Lacey Act and amendments thereto. This data is too overwhelming for a CEO or President of a company involved in the trade of cyanide caught fish to say "I didn't know".

REEForm

 

[Anonymous]

Dizzy is 100% correct as are the horriffic statistics presented by Frank.

This information which industry in this post attempts to discredit is cannon fodder in REEForm's war against cyanide fishing in the Philippines and Indonesia and its supporters there and stateside.

Further, this data IMO, will provide key evidence with Cyanide Detection Tests (CDT), to suppoort federal indictments against those who may be in violation of the Lacey Act and amendments thereto. This data is too overwhelming for a CEO or President of a company involved in the trade of cyanide caught fish to say "I didn't know".

REEForm

aren't you technically one of them, having purchased s/w animals? :roll:

 

[Anonymous]

Dizzy is 100% correct as are the horriffic statistics presented by Frank.
This information which industry in this post attempts to discredit is cannon fodder in REEForm's war against cyanide fishing in the Philippines and Indonesia and its supporters there and stateside.

Further, this data IMO, will provide key evidence with Cyanide Detection Tests (CDT), to suppoort federal indictments against those who may be in violation of the Lacey Act and amendments thereto. This data is too overwhelming for a CEO or President of a company involved in the trade of cyanide caught fish to say "I didn't know".

REEForm

care to enlighten us as to your source of independent corroboration of the data?

methinks it's time for you to put up or shut up, you silly, silly , misguided young man, you :roll:

you're becoming more and more of an unstable ranter and raver day by day-and you aren't helping the true reformists at all...

in fact you're helping to put all the good, true reformists in true jeopardy, with your amazingly infantile tirades on this forum :x