Ending Cyanide Use One Net at a Time- Story and Pictures

[MaryHM]

The netting material that so many graciously donated to the Philippine collectors has now reached its destination and is being handed out to the collectors. As far as I'm aware, this is the largest shipment of hand netting ever sent to the Philppines for marine ornamental collectors. Just one more step toward the elimination of cyanide use!

See story and pictures here:

http://www.reefsource.com/netting_material_fund.htm

 

[horge]

That's very good news Mary.
I'm a bit surprised no one has been inclined to comment on this thread.

To perversely balance the promising developmens in Palawan, lower Luzon, and upper Visayas, there's this disturbing increase in cyanide traffic in Mindanao, and an increase in live foodfish and ornamentals volume from that troubled region.


+

 

[clarionreef]

Jorge,
Kamusta ka,
Marys post here is a working thread ...
Not a recreational one. Hence the paucity of response.
It is however worth all the rest combined by a factor of 100. Steve

 

[horge]

Ah, so sorry
...and I hope all goes well with your own long-running efforts, Steve.

They are deeply appreciated here.

 

[mkirda]

The netting material that so many graciously donated to the Philippine collectors has now reached its destination and is being handed out to the collectors.

Mary and all.

In speaking to Ferdinand late Saturday night, he told me one thing of interest...

The rolls of netting have not yet been cut. The netting you saw being distributed in the pictures was some of what I had sent over earlier this year.

Why is this important?

One thing Ferdinand is extremely sensitive to is how the netting will be distributed and how it will be used. I think it was John who made a comment in an earlier thread, using the imagery of a truck driving through a village, rolling a bundle of netting off the back, then driving on. This is exactly the type of thing Ferdinand wants to avoid. As a result, he is somewhat tight-fisted with the netting supply, preferring that he bring it into a village and that a hand net making party takes place. Some material is left for repairs, but the point is that he does not give out 200 foot of net willy-nilly... It is brought in and immediately used for what it was intended for.

In the case of these women collectors, he relented only after exacting a promise from the women that they would account for the netting when a training occurs in their village later on this month. He then gave them the netting from my previous donation, knowing that I had put no restrictions on it as to use or distribution.

As for the rolls of netting, Ferdinand thinks it extremely important that a policy is put in place for its distribution. I've given him my own input, and left it to Mary and Ferdie to hammer out the details from there. I'm not sure that they will post the policy or not, but given Mary's love of transparency, I imagine it will be posted for the world to see once it is finished.

I cannot tell you how happy it makes me to see the netting being distributed though.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
Back to your regularly scheduled name-calling...

 

[John_Brandt]

The netting material that so many graciously donated to the Philippine collectors has now reached its destination and is being handed out to the collectors.

Mary and all.

In speaking to Ferdinand late Saturday night, he told me one thing of interest...

The rolls of netting have not yet been cut. The netting you saw being distributed in the pictures was some of what I had sent over earlier this year.

Why is this important?

One thing Ferdinand is extremely sensitive to is how the netting will be distributed and how it will be used. I think it was John who made a comment in an earlier thread, using the imagery of a truck driving through a village, rolling a bundle of netting off the back, then driving on. This is exactly the type of thing Ferdinand wants to avoid. As a result, he is somewhat tight-fisted with the netting supply, preferring that he bring it into a village and that a hand net making party takes place. Some material is left for repairs, but the point is that he does not give out 200 foot of net willy-nilly... It is brought in and immediately used for what it was intended for.

My specific comment from June 19th was this:

'Feel good' isn't a necessity, but organizations are. The task of getting Filipino fisherfolk to stop using cyanide and other destructive collecting methods permanently, almost certainly requires multiple organizations. Some of those NGOs are going to be Philippine. And there are going to be some people in those organizations who wear nice clothing to work, that doesn't get dirty.

The NETS & TRAINING - NETS & TRAINING - NETS & TRAINING mantra we keep getting in here (and on RC) completely ignores the 95% of the other things that need to be enacted to keep fishers permanently off of cyanide.

We need to ask serious questions about what happens when the Ferdinand/Robinson team goes tear-ass through those villages training and handing out nets like candy. What do they say, "Sorry we can't stick around, we have 739 more guys to train. Gotta run!"

Be worried. Very worried.

I think the concern still applies. When the goal is to train 1000 fishers in a year that is a lot of guys at a rapid rate. You can't stick around because you've got to keep moving from village to village. What prevents fishers from going back to cyanide the minute the trainers leave their village?

I can imagine fishers going out to reefs with excellent hand nets, excellent barrier nets, excellent training on how to use them...and a bottle of juice. What exactly is necessary to keep fishers from using cyanide as just another tool to increase their yield; a yield which presumably they will be paid even more pesos for?

MAC has been accused of facilitating "green-washing" in which MAC Certified exporters are rumored to mix cyanide-caught fish with net-caught (or sell them side-by-side) with the idea that MAC Certification makes them look all clean.

But couldn't there also be something known as "net-washing"; whereby fishers who have been trained and net-equipped by the NETS & TRAINING TEAM are then assumed to only provide all clean fish?

I'm not accusing anyone of anything, I just think these are important questions. It is great to see those pictures of the delivered netting and the letters from Ferdinand. Congratulations to everyone who made this possible!

 

[mkirda]

After writing a long and elegant post, I hit submit, only to be asked to log in again. I hit back, and POOF! My post is gone. 8O
I hit forward and log in again, no post either...

I don't have the heart, nor the time to rewrite it.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[dizzy]

Mike,
You should post your experiences to the bugs part on the feedback page. I have had similar experiences, but I think it was when I dropped offline. In another post you mentioned something like a message at the page bottom that said page 9 of 8. Read what I wrote in the bugs section about a similar problem and the response.
Mitch

 

[clarionreef]

John,
If backsliding thru improper net training is a concern of yours you must base it on what has passed for net training in the past decade.
Real net training is commecial, professional money making school for fisheman and the only way to ruin it is to refuse to supply the netting material during and afterwards.
None of your concerns are mine. You have been taught to beware of incompetence and fraud based on your experience with MAC.
You will find our approach different and refreshing and nothing like the eco-carnivals of Buhol and Camotes.
What is needed is not just ceremonial training for nice, harmless people who welcome tourists with open arms. . .We need "bad boy" training for hardcore cyanide fisherman who are not impressed by anything that makes them less money. Our job plain and simple is to make them more money by their own assessment and experience. This can only be done by other commercial collectors who can out collect them and actually teach by example...not theory.
Tough, practical village people who believe only what they see cannot be fooled by faking it. They'll stick with the nets because the nets can make them more money...plain and simple. Failing to understand this and trying to train without nets on 'virtue' and appeals to sacrifice are for wannabies and failures. Engineering backsliding thru improper procedure should be grounds for termination for a training team or organization.
All the environmental / sustainability stuff to make the city people feel better comes later in the ciriculum. . . later, after the divers preoccupation with maintaining family income is satisfied.
Its like this John. Look how easy it is for a professional bowler to roll 200 games all the time or for a real baseball player to hit at least a 250 avg. all the time. Now, ask this of the layman and see how impossible it becomes. No matter how much they ernestly try, sincerely over analyse and re-map strategy, they just can't do it! Its no different!
Convincing and converting cyanide fisherman is commercial dive training and only with that done well does the rest of the trades [ and the WWF's] agenda have a chance to be considered.
This kind of work is not for everyone so there should be no problem if everyone, [ especially backseat drivers ] cannot understand it.
Don't worry, we'll get it on film.
Sincerely Steve
AMDA pres and it looks like...field trainer

 

[Jaime Baquero]

John,
If backsliding thru improper net training is a concern of yours you must base it on what has passed for net training in the past decade.
Real net training is commecial, professional money making school for fisheman and the only way to ruin it is to refuse to supply the netting material during and afterwards.
None of your concerns are mine. You have been taught to beware of incompetence and fraud based on your experience with MAC.
You will find our approach different and refreshing and nothing like the eco-carnivals of Buhol and Camotes.
What is needed is not just ceremonial training for nice, harmless people who welcome tourists with open arms. . .We need "bad boy" training for hardcore cyanide fisherman who are not impressed by anything that makes them less money. Our job plain and simple is to make them more money by their own assessment and experience. This can only be done by other commercial collectors who can out collect them and actually teach by example...not theory.
Tough, practical village people who believe only what they see cannot be fooled by faking it. They'll stick with the nets because the nets can make them more money...plain and simple. Failing to understand this and trying to train without nets on 'virtue' and appeals to sacrifice are for wannabies and failures. Engineering backsliding thru improper procedure should be grounds for termination for a training team or organization.
All the environmental / sustainability stuff to make the city people feel better comes later in the ciriculum. . . later, after the divers preoccupation with maintaining family income is satisfied.
Its like this John. Look how easy it is for a professional bowler to roll 200 games all the time or for a real baseball player to hit at least a 250 avg. all the time. Now, ask this of the layman and see how impossible it becomes. No matter how much they ernestly try, sincerely over analyse and re-map strategy, they just can't do it! Its no different!
Convincing and converting cyanide fisherman is commercial dive training and only with that done well does the rest of the trades [ and the WWF's] agenda have a chance to be considered.
This kind of work is not for everyone so there should be no problem if everyone, [ especially backseat drivers ] cannot understand it.
Don't worry, we'll get it on film.
Sincerely Steve
AMDA pres and it looks like...field trainer

John,

I understand your concerns. I saw the pictures and the message posted regarding Ferdinand's "work plan" . I understand Ferdinad is working in San Salvador (Zambales), I am familiar with the place, we worked with that community. It is far away from Manila, if I remember is around 6 hours away. The main problem in this community is related to handling and holding. Most of the slides I showed during my presentation in MACNA X in los Angeles were taken in this area. Up to 60 domino damsels in a bag kept for over a week. 12 Lion fish in the same bag, etc.. It was a nightmare to see all that. From this place you can get a good idea of how bad is handling and holding.

We got from San Salvador very good fisherfloks trained to use nets, one of them called Noel, who was hired by an american exporter/importer to operate in Eritrea. He was a superb fish collector capable of getting any fish with the nets. The problem was that his fish were dying because poor handling and holding.

I think handling and holding can not be delayed in the curriculum. What is the point of training fish collectors to use nets instead of cyanide if the fish they collect don't make it? So far collectors in this area do not mind... there is plenty of fish out there... so if these don't make it, just go to the sea and collect more. That is not a sustainable activity !

Livelihood alternatives in this Island are difficult.

I think it is important I share our experiences with all of you.

Regards

Jaime

 

[Anonymous]

I think handling and holding can not be delayed in the curriculum.

Diver Safety, holding, shipping and proper decompession are all components of Steve's training. Your fully correct in that assesment Jamie.

 

[clarionreef]

Handling again?
Thats about all it is actually. This gets answered every full moon. Most of the trainings center around handling and it starts at point of collection with the proper nets.
No one is more concerned than I as I import fish weekly and am obsessed with handling and how to improve it...[ much, much more than service people.] Practical, hands on solutions to handling fish better are and always have been... 'yawn' ...at the core of every training I was ever involved in. It has never been otherwise.
Save this for the same answer in two more weeks.
Steve

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Cortes Marine,

If handling and holding was at the core of every training you were involved "during your time in the Philippines" over a decade, how come is that fish collectors are still using and reusing contaminated plastic bags to keep for extended periods of time their net caught fish?

Backsliding was and is not due (necessarily) to improper training as suggested by you. There were fisherfolks that you trained ( and I guess were the best training courses ever happened in the Philippines) that went back to cyanide. Was it because a bad trainer or training course? Answer.. NO, it was because collectors didn't see an economic incentive.

They haven't seen a response from the industry, they have been sending clear signs showing that they want to do things the best possible way, they think.

It has taken decades to make some individuals (small players) realize that handling and holding at community level is a serious problem. In the case of San Salvador Island in Zambales How you guys are planning to tackle these aspects? Don't you think that first thing to do is to find alternatives to the actual holding techniques? By itself it is a project that could cost some money.

These "small players" represent a very tiny % of the trade. I do agree, you have to start some where, meanwhile the big players are going to keep doing business as usual and more pressure is going to be put on the reefs to replace the high mortality rates.

jaime

 

[clarionreef]

No interest,
There is as little interest in these questions as there is in our discussion.
If I dare answer you and some of your rude little inuendos and fibs, the forums 'hall monitors' will awaken and chastise me. You are largely exempt from this shallow exercise in propriety [ as is Frank Lallo]but your importance as a foil and a devils advocate could be useful nonetheless.
Whats needed is an open debate with no interference from the more delicate and sensitive types that always prevent the issue from a proper airing. As long as nothing of importance is discussed...there is no self righteous outcry. If it starts to get real...there is a call for shutdown of dialogue.
This cowardice in dialogue and free speech is surprising in a country where political debates between patriots are incredibly nasty and vindictive. In the state of California we are gearing up for a record campaign of bitterness and mud slinging as the recalled governor squares off against the Terminator and all other comers. There is little we can say that will approach the intensity of that...but it is tolerated and protected as a cornerstone of Democracy.
So, unless there is real interest, I must not respond to the not so simple issue of mis-handling fishes in regions of no electricity, no facilities, no capital and no distant and uninvolved people to tell them what to do...as if they themselves could do any better given the same circumstances.
Its better to do it than to talk about it anyway...and that is going to happen.
Steve

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Voila, it is an elegant way to avoid answers to real questions. The real answer is that you do not know. In this specific case (San Salvador Island) you are putting the chart before the horse. You need to solve the holding problem before starting to collect your fish.

The crux of the matter is that you want to keep "ignoring" some things that happened.

It is better for you, just to keep misleading and misinforming the readers. The truth is that you, and others participating with you, in this called reform have a hidden agenda. Hidden agenda that will benefit your personal business at the expenses of the honest people that have contributed to collect money for the net training program. I know many IMPORTANT aspects that are very relevant to what is going on here, and that I learnt first hand while in the Philippines. You are forcing me, with your arrogance and disrespect, to disclose these matters.

 

[clarionreef]

Anyone want to hear it? The rebuttal, the debate?
I don't think they do.
However, if there were energy for it...I would frankly love to hear all about the conspiracy you infer. If you can delay the trainings by ruining support for them, I will be in your debt as my Mexican partners just got our permits back on line and I have to go train in Mexico.
After that, MACNA. The Philippine trainings represent a huge loss of income and money up front ...in the slow season and just when Mexico needs full attention... Mexico is profitable, net-caught Philippine is not.
There is no sponsor for the trainings except for bare bones minimum cost of airfare and netting material...thanks to AMDA. The local NGO has little money. This has to be done on sacrifice, loss and risk.
Since you do not seem to want us to train anymore...perhaps you can help me get out of this...please.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Hey I'm always game for a new conspiracy, please tell. Mob killed JFK, Aliens, Hoffa, never landed on the moon and such makes good reading, and even better movies.

Jamie, reread Steve's articles from the past (FAMA). All his motives are in PLAIN site for all to read. I can probably get you some copies, but since net-caught doesn't pay, I'm broke and you'd have to pay for shipping, the paper and even the ink.

Failure happens when theres no market support, as claimed by you. You blame the indusrty for no support, yet you call conspiracy when industry plans on training with marker support. Belive it or not, we(Cortez) really don't need much more PI net-caught fish, Steve's trained divers from the past supply us with plenty, as well as all the other net-caught supporters. BTW, hows training divers for your compitition to have better fish supply a conspiracy? Its more like business suicide. You bash his trainings, yet you choose to use one of his trained (and member of his training team) divers to run PHP (Meme). You even felt so highly of Meme, you offerred us his contact info, even though Steve has been in contact with Meme for some time before your offer. Remember, we used to deal with AMRI (when we were running Eco-Vitality) where Meme was empoyeed for years. Your platform can't have 2 sides, which is it?

Your continually say something needs to be done, yet I haven't heard an peep from you about going over to train yourself, or even help. Step up, or shut up, you've so far got nothing to offer other then "industry didn't support us, we failed".

FWIW, I call it like I see it. I don't speak for Steve, nor does he tell me what to say/print. He doesn't "sic" me on people like some have claimed.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Cortez Marines

Telling the truth is not synonymous of conspiracy.

 

[clarionreef]

As in hamburgers served and thousands trained?
It is too obvious to point out but how could DOA mortalities in the trade be so high as reported by Lallo et al. with all those thousands trained so diligently by past NGOs
Steve?

 

[mkirda]

{Yawn}

"There's nothing on TV, honey... I've seen this movie before..."