Is it ethical to purchase wild caught fish?

[Anonymous]

Recent discussions by Frank Lallo and Dr. Peter Rubec have asserted that fish motalities range from 88% to 95% from reef to home aquaria. This does not include the losses hobbyists experience in their tanks.

If the mortality statistics are accuarate is it ethical for hobbyists to purchase any wild caught fish ever?

The thought of a school of three green chromis's in my home tank statistically representing 27 dead fish is totally disgusting to me.

Sincerely,
-Lee

 

[mkirda]

If the mortality statistics are accurate is it ethical for hobbyists to purchase any wild caught fish ever?

Lee,

First of all, I would have to state that these statistics do not represent a state of the art study. They are a first step, nothing more. A sobering step, one that gives me pause. However, I do recognize the limits on the study.

If a proper study can be done, and it reinforces these numbers, the next step would be to analyze why these numbers are so high. There has to be a cause, or more likely, a series of causes.

The ethical thing to do would be to attack the causes of the fish deaths.

Everything starts with the collectors, and this is where the process needs to begin. The improvements need to start on this first leg, from capture methods to holding methods to transportation methods. If you can get the fish to Manila in perfect shape, the deaths in the chain further down will also fall.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Frank Lallo]

Lee,
Ethical, as you pose it here seems to be a genral question in terms of what the numbers say. As far as ethical busniness practices are a hole different matter all together. They are many many varitables to be considered here that would no dout bring down the numbers dramaticlly.
Nutrition
Husbandry
Environement
Method of capture
Transfer from reef to ?

The nutrutional part....In all reality we do not no what the nutritional requirements of these fish really are. Sure we know the generalities but not the finner details.

Husbandry....Over sea's and here in the US We throw these fish into tanks as small as 10 & 15 gallons which if you think about it can not be good for the fish's over all long term health. Look at the stitistics on Men and women serving life sentences in our prison systems. There mortality or is far higher then that of peole that are not in the system. Could it be, that 4x8 box and there diet have something to do it ? If so is it possible fish suffer the same fate ?
Methods of capture..... In posting these numbers & contacting wholesalers that deal strictly in Net Caught fish the morality figures they have are FAR below the numbers I am posting. The net caught fish or trapped fish seem to have a huge edge statisticly, and I mean huge !.

The Ethics....Everybody has to take the blame here. The fishermen for not finding better methods of handling fish when caught and brought to the beach. Many sit in buckets or bags in a shack that only has a roof for hours on end. The holding facilites for not feeding there fish very poor husbanbry tatics ie do it as cheaply as possible there not going to be here long. Airlines...flight delays, poor handling even though the box's read fragile live animals....you should see the conditions of some the shippments that come in, you would throw-up. The fish & wildlife or customs..If they get a hair up there ass...ie show up 2 mintues late they will be extremely spiteful and make you wait in some case's 2 hours or more just to teach you a lesson. The wholesalers....This I must admit has improved but not enough. Many honest hard working wholesalers are either not or on very few accations dealing with these difficult species but more can be done. The retailer, for the most part as I have repeated so many times my face is turning blue. For every 1 excellent store in this country there a 9 or 10 that either have no ethics at all or just don't understand ( I refer to some numbers John Brandt posted ) Which I think John should take alot further.they would educate alot of store owners on bottom line figures. Alot of these stores owers I will say it flat out, just don't give a **** period....If someone walks in they would sell them there mother in they could....it is simply a get them in move them out propostion. If your fish died in 2 to 3 weeks they will sell you another and smile, In stead for saying to the custumer, Try this fish it is alot easier to care for and when you build a little experiance try one a touch more difficult....no if you look at a fish in the $20.00 to $30.00 range as opposed to the $5 or $6 fish to many owners will sell you the higher priced fish. On top of that there are those that still deal in these high mortality fish knowing full well you'll be back in just a few weeks to buy another. The hobbyist.....What you see alot of is COLOR when it comes to saltwater species lots of beautiful color. AN OUTRAGEOUS SALES MARKETING TOOL. The hobbyist and owner alike both deal and buy fish knowing full well it will be dead in a matter of days to weeks. Yet they contiue to do it.
The guest speakers at club functions......Not all but some mind you come into a club and speak on a certian species of fish THAT THEY HAVE BEEN KEEPING ALIVE.....I call this this the rage fish or fish of the month club. Everybody just has to have that sucker. The next morning the hobbyist runs out & hits every single store they can find looking for this fish......What does the owner do ! orders them in boat loads to satisfy his client base.....This was the classic case of ribbon Eels, the copperbanded butterfly fish, to name a few. I would go as far as to say these two rage fish at that time 98% of them are dead a waste if you ask me. So you see at every step we all have to take the blame. I feel quite strongly it can change for the better, and it believe it is slowly but it is.
Thou we fight argue and hammer each other to death people like John Brandt, Mary Middlebrook, Steve Robinson, Peter Rubec, Mike kirida Hope I spelled it right Mike...Just to name a few, are all in there own way fighting to improve the hobby we love so much. When the likes of the people above, I would really get worried when the arguing stop's when it does we will all be in big trouble Meaning when we stop hammering each other the industry has won big time.

Frankie

 

[mkirda]

When the likes of the people above, I would really get worried when the arguing stop's when it does we will all be in big trouble Meaning when we stop hammering each other the industry has won big time.

Frankie

I would respectfully disagree.

When we argue so publicly amongst ourselves, it serves Industry's interests.
Not ours. It does not do anything to further the interests of reform. It makes us all look like a bunch of squabbling idiots...

Personally, I've been limiting my time spent on here as I realized finally that there are better ways of spending my time, more productive ways. I'm better off finishing my Coron article and collaborating with Dante on his piece, and getting that published so people have a better understanding of the situation in the Philippines. Things are not all the same everywhere there...

It is most ethical to support the fledgling net-caught collectors, and support the organizations that are pledging to train more. It is most ethical to buy net-caught fish, and support these collectors now.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Frank Lallo]

Clarification.
Mike what I meant by" When we stop arguing" was people getting fustrated and giving up. I obviously did make that clear.

Frankie

 

[Frank Lallo]

Oops,
As so many have done in past.

 

[PeterIMA]

Mike and Frank, I think you are both right. We need to be concerned and support finding solutions to these problems. I spoke with Ferdinand on the phone last night. He was very happy to receive the netting sent to him by Mary Middlebrook and Mike Kirda. He wishes to thank all the hobbyists and those in the trade that donated funds for buying the hand netting.

Ferdinand also informed me that he has been having discussions with Lino Alvarez (the MAC Philippines Coordinator). He was hopeful that the differences that he has with the MAC can be resolved. So, there is hope that the collectors trained by Ferdinand may become MAC Certified, and that the MAC Certification program will be implemented properly.

Peter Rubec

 

[Anonymous]

Your poll is incomplete and does not take into consideration the health of the reef. It only becomes unethical to buy fish when the result is the death of reef itself. Remember the mortality rate from net to plate is 100% in the food industry. As long as the resource is not overcollected, it matters little how long they live "off" the reef.

 

[JennM]

First off, the poll questions are VERY leading (Die die die??) and really imply bias on the part of the pollster.

Secondly, ultimately there is 100 % mortality. NO FISH EVER GOES BACK. Some live hours, some live days, some live for years - but they all die eventually.

As a retailer, I'm looking for two things: 1) Good value for my clients (ie: fish has a long healthy life expectancy) and 2) Fish was collected in a manner that is sustainable and not destructive to the reef, or the fisher.

To answer the question, YES it is ethical to purchase wild caught fishes. Most of the fishes I EAT are wild caught (in fact all of them are, to the best of my knowledge, I don't eat salmon and I haven't ever had a trout I didn't catch myself, or the party I was with...) In that regard there is no difference, IMO. I sport fish by local regulations and with an appropriate licence, so as to not over-tax the local fishery, and using approved methods. I aspire that the fishers that supply my ornamentals do the same.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

Jenn and others,

Damn straight my poll is leading. Glad it hasn't missed you folks' attention. Please note that I placed the poll here and not in the 'general discussion area'. I'm interested in the thoughts of the audience here.

I've been in this hobby for 13 years and had no blessed idea that mortalities could have ever been considered to have been this high. Not even by a factor of ten. If I had known that 13 years ago I would have stuck with FW livebearers and planted tanks. Even now we don't know whether things are much better.

How can ethical people be involved with this hobby if there is so much needless premature death involved with it? Please note there is a big difference in my mind between killing something for food and allowing something to die for aesthetic reasons.

Based on the sobering statistics I read in Dr. Rubec's papers I gave away my SW fish last month. First time in 13 years that I haven't had a marine fish in my house. I'm planning on only having captive prop. fish in the future if I chose to keep fish at all. I might make an exception for wild caught fish if I actively plan on trying to propigate them.

That is how I'm voting with my wallet.
-Lee

 

[Anonymous]

Your poll is incomplete and does not take into consideration the health of the reef. It only becomes unethical to buy fish when the result is the death of reef itself. Remember the mortality rate from net to plate is 100% in the food industry. As long as the resource is not overcollected, it matters little how long they live "off" the reef.

You are proscribing a vulgar set of situational ethics. It is okay to prematurely kll 90% of collected ornamental fish as long as the reefs are okay? Even if the reefs were in pristine condition wouldn't an ethical person have objections to killing 9 fish so they could have 1 in their home aquarium?

-Lee

 

[JennM]

Playing Devil's Advocate here...

Every propagated any fish? Ever CULLED?

Captive propagated fish have mortalities too, albeit less in transit but do you know how many might have been culled (read: deliberately killed) so one might make it to market? How many female Betta splendens are wasted so the masses can have a pretty finny male in the vase on their desk? How many guppies that didn't make the cut, are disposed of for that show specimen? Please - there's blood on everybody's hands, fresh or marines. All fish were wild caught at some point in time - until hobbyists figured out how to make conditions favourable for breeding. Even now captive marines have to have wild caught brood stock, and need to rotate their brood stock or inbreeding occurs.

Propagated livestock (cows, pigs, chickens) are killed for food - we could all choose to eat plants and leave the animals unharmed - (are those leather shoes you're wearing?) Perhaps to you the end justifies the means, but a dead animal is still dead. How many puppies and kittens end up in the pound and euthenized - this is the same thing - death of companion animals... where do you draw the line? If this bothers you so much, then perhaps PETA has a membership form for you.

When somebody ambles into my shop, who has never seen reef creatures, except in books or on TV, and they see something wonderful, like a cleaner shrimp cleaning a tang (or my fingers!), or a coral with its polyps extended, or a fanworm retract suddenly -- and if they leave my shop just a bit more aware of the reefs and their life forms and some of the issues that are out there concerning the reef, then IMO the end justifies the means. Perhaps they will appreciate Nature more on their next tropical vacation. Perhaps they won't step on the coral head, or they won't throw their trash on the beach.

People will save what they love. Discussions that go on here, however heated they may become, are usually involving participants that have a love of the reefs and all that dwell on them, in them and around them. If you had never had a marine tank, you wouldn't be spending your time here either. Did the end not justify the means?

I still have to wonder about the overall percentages in Frank's study - taking it all into consideration, I appreciate the time and effort that Frank put forth, and to the end that it got a lot of people talking, that is a good thing. If the percentages are accurate, especially on the East coast, it's a sad statement for the trade - because shops such as mine experience very little mortality - so "others" must have almost total mortality to bring that average up so high. That angers me, and makes me wonder what kind of licencing and inspections are (not) going on in those places.

I'd still suggest that if you want to get an ACCURATE reading of the feelings of the respondants to your poll, make the questions a bit more unbiased - and you're more likely to get honest answers - looking at the stats when I voted, even I was questioning the current stats - since we all know that most hobbyists are buying mostly wild caught. In many cases it boils down to dollars and cents. Hobbyists don't care about captive propped or wild caught. They just want CHEAP.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

You are proscribing a vulgar set of situational ethics. It is okay to prematurely kill 90% of collected ornamental fish as long as the reefs are okay? Even if the reefs were in pristine condition wouldn't an ethical person have objections to killing 9 fish so they could have 1 in their home aquarium?

What do you mean by prematurely? What do you think the average life span is on the reef? Do you think that aquacultured fish don't also die?

I understand your point to a degree, but I have a hard time swallowing it when I can go up the sidewalk and buy all the dead fish I want, they just happen to be ugly. Talk about situational ethics. Are you suggesting that ugly can be killed and eaten and pretty must be protected? Is it okay for 10,000 ugly fish to be killed instantaneously, gutted, frozen and chopped up into little freeze dried sticks for dinner, for every pretty fish that gets to swin around in a pretty glass box? Check the ingredients on your fish food. Are those fish dead, or is it some part of meal donarship program on the part of the benevolent fish?

Reef fish are a renewable resource, just like corn, wheat, timber, apples, pears, etc. They aren't dogs or cats.

If I had known that 13 years ago I would have stuck with FW livebearers and planted tanks. Even now we don't know whether things are much better.

Do you think the mortality on a pond of live bearers is any better? Any idea how many freshwater fish are killed per day?

 

[mkirda]

You are proscribing a vulgar set of situational ethics. It is okay to prematurely kill 90% of collected ornamental fish as long as the reefs are okay? Even if the reefs were in pristine condition wouldn't an ethical person have objections to killing 9 fish so they could have 1 in their home aquarium?

-Lee

Lee,

I could answer this both ways, and argue it both ways.

If the reefs are pristine, and the fishing pressure is not too high, does it matter how long the fish lives? As far as the reef health is concerned, it does not appear to be so.

However, from an animal cruelty point of view, the fact that 90% die in this hypothetical example is cause for concern. I would ask why this particular species dies? Next, I think if I was truly concerned, I would work with trying to see what I could do to figure this out, then spread the information around. If handling could be improved and the numbers come down, then we've solved the problem. If the species just doesn't adjust well to captivity, then I would lobby for collections to be limited or possibly banned.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Frank Lallo]

That angers me, and makes me wonder what kind of licencing and inspections are (not) going on in those places.

Jenn,
If there is a dog or a cat on the property for sale inspectors show up from time to time. But I have NEVER seen anything in reguards to FISH. Maybe it is TIME fishes get the the same respect!.

Frankie

 

[JennM]

I used to work for a place, and when they finally were inspected (owner never bothered getting an animal protection licence, required here in GA), the "inspector" had no clue about fish - asked US what we were supposed to have! Needless to say we passed inspection (and really, there was no reason to fail, but the inspector really wouldn't have known, her thing was horses and cows...)

Before I opened my doors, I contacted the state's department of agriculture, for an inspection and licence, and they sent an inspector - surprisingly he was a hobbyist too, and we had a great conversation - he spent 2 1/2 hours inspecting my systems, wrote a really detailed report and my licence was issued. Haven't seen an inspector since, but I suppose if there was no complaint, there is no cause. My licence was renewed by mail. I am ready for an inspector any day, but I really don't expect one.

However....

I've seen some atrocities here in my own state. I've been told by people who phoned that same dept. of agriculture in complaint of some places - these are full line stores (present company excluded), with aquatics, herps, rodents, puppies etc., and the complaints varied, but the worst was a cop of my aquaintance who told me she filed a complaint with the state when she was called to a pet shop after hours because the puppies had escaped their enclosure (a fence around a plastic wading pool) and were devouring the hamsters in the kiddie pool beside them (pools had shavings, not water.... but a poor enclosure to be sure!). This all happened in the store's front window, in plain view of the patrons of the restaurant located next to the pet store. Imagine the horror? You're on your way to a nice evening meal, stop to look at the doggie in the window and it's eating Hammy Hamster? Apparently it was a real mess. That place was not shut down, nor fined that I'm aware of. Took authorities a while to locate the store's owner, the local emergency services did not have contact info, as the owners lived in another county... More people would be in a flap over that, than the condtion of their fish tanks.

I've recently done some work for several folks who were given, ummmm bad advise elsewhere and sold totally inappropriate livestock for their brand shiny new tanks... that angers me too, but it's also the consumers' fault for not doing their own homework. Still, innocent animals were subjected to bad conditions that resulted in their deaths.. and customers were relieved of their money in their naivete and trusting natures....

I've seen some shops in FL (which doesn't require animal protection licences,) that really peeved me off too - tanks where you couldn't see the fish for the murky milky water (freshwater) - herps that stunk to high heaven... I always have to wonder WHO shops at places like these? One would think that Darwinian law would apply here - but some of these nasty places just keep on going - because people keep buying.

Yes, the fish deserve to be humanely treated. That's my argument for reform, as well as the long-term sustainability of the reefs, and the health of the divers and fishers who collect them. That is why I don't carry certain species. That is why I strive to buy net-caught fish. It's better for the reefs and the people who earn their living from the reefs, it's better value for the customer.

Jenn

 

[Frank Lallo]

Jen, and anybody reading this topic.
This will be the one and only time I will say anything about a specific Location as it relates to the study. As I was born, raised and spent the better part of my life there where it concearns fish I am at times embaressed to admit I am from NEW YORK City & it's sourronding area where BY FAR the worst in the study. Having seen it ALL up close and personal. They have the biggest egotistical maniac's I have ever seen when it comes to fish. If a fish coral or invert was in any way shape or form excotic they have to have it. It is the classic beat the jones attitude. The store's are no better, if the store down the block has one they have to get two. A very vicious cycle to say the least. When I left Ny 6 1/2 years ago it was still going strong. I remember an auction a club had when copperbanded butterflys were just begining to show up in stores.
The club went out and bought just about every one they could find and auctioned them off that night. 35 copperbanded butterfly and not onewinning bid was under $50.00 bucks ! The club was real happy, I quit that night. If you could have been there it would have turned your stomach, it was like a bunch of animals in a feeding frenzy. It was brought to my attention that at the following meeting only 2 of the 35 where still alive.

Frankie

Frankie

 

[PeterIMA]

Frank, I assume the feeding frenzy was the club members themselves. Right?

Peter

 

[MaryHM]

Lee,

You are basing your reaction solely on Frank's data that hasn't even all been released yet. Numerous people in the industry have said that based on their experience this notion of 60% does not seem realistic at all in today's market. Frank himself has said there is a possibility that the data has problems associated with it. Yet you are willing to believe it 100% without question and give up your fish. Sounds like sensationalism has once again won over common sense and reason.

 

[horge]

If we're going to distinguish between wild-caught and propagated then we are focusing on sustainability, otherwise we'd just be nursing another Finding Nemo moment on the morality of imprisoning living creatures --in which case there would be no distinction between wild-caught and propagated ornamental fish: they'd all be accorded anthropomorphic rights and dignities.

To open a debate on the 'ethics' of marine aquaristics might be taken as a despairing capitulation, a defeatist admission that one has given up on reform, since successful reform would kick the legs out from under this, this... this 'ethical' argument/poll/discussion.

It might also be taken as a claim that reform HASN'T worked.
This is a false claim.

Ask any of the old hands with REAL wet-time under their belts whether the cyanide problem has worsened or abated since the late 80's in the Philippines, and only the uninformed or those with hidden agendas will claim it is worse today.

From this forum's content, there's too little attention being given to shipping mortalities that have nothing to do with cyanide, considering that this is easier to monitor and even control, from the importer's side.
Retailer olding techniques and hobbyist practice are also squarely on your side to fix.


Is it ethical to keep wild-caught ornamental fish?

You know what I think?
It doesn't matter what I 'think'.
The trade continues, recking not what I 'think'.
I am left with attempting its reform from within and without.




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