MAC Cyanide Detection Testing
- Thread starter JennM
- Start date
clarionreef
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Well Len,
The trick is to just keep your eye on the ball. Some folks do that , concentrate on the substance of the argument and ignore the "way" things are said. Others look for attitude and find the "way" it was said to be more important than the message of "what" was said.
Its easy to behave when its dialogue about something esoteric and removed from us like "fighting seahorse aquaculture companies" for example. But when its your seahorse aquaculture company...its a thread charged with electricity. [ a current event by the way]
Some would find a dialogue about the good Hitler did in Germany to be acceptable so long as everyone behaved and acted nice to one another. Others, who perhaps lost a loved one to the Nazis would find the very dialogue reprehensible and charged with evil!...no matter how politely is was presented.
Look at your degree of distance and detachment from an issue before passing a shallow and uninvolved judgement upon it...
Steve
The trick is to just keep your eye on the ball. Some folks do that , concentrate on the substance of the argument and ignore the "way" things are said. Others look for attitude and find the "way" it was said to be more important than the message of "what" was said.
Its easy to behave when its dialogue about something esoteric and removed from us like "fighting seahorse aquaculture companies" for example. But when its your seahorse aquaculture company...its a thread charged with electricity. [ a current event by the way]
Some would find a dialogue about the good Hitler did in Germany to be acceptable so long as everyone behaved and acted nice to one another. Others, who perhaps lost a loved one to the Nazis would find the very dialogue reprehensible and charged with evil!...no matter how politely is was presented.
Look at your degree of distance and detachment from an issue before passing a shallow and uninvolved judgement upon it...
Steve
clarionreef
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- San Francisco
Plus,
You can only answer for your own stuff. Its a free wheelin Democracy and I only wish the more commercial players would become more involved.
Then again, most of em choose not to for very definite reasons...
Steve
You can only answer for your own stuff. Its a free wheelin Democracy and I only wish the more commercial players would become more involved.
Then again, most of em choose not to for very definite reasons...
Steve
In addendum, I'd like to reiterate my opinion that progression of industry issues is better accomplished with less negativity towards individuals or groups but rather more positive, constructive contributions. One common problem we encounter with excessive negativity is the alienation of people who wish to join in our dicussions but are too intimidated to. And I hope we all agree that the less participants in our dicussions, the less enriching this forum is.
Well said Steve
Well said Steve
Yikes I spend Mondays on the road, algae scraping (please, no hose jokes...) and I come back and see what a ruckus is going on.
MODERATORS: PLEASE - when you break off a thread to start a new one, please insert a "moderator comment" that you've done this. This is not the first time you have done this to one of my replies to an ongoing thread (the most notable other one was "ya reef killin hoser", I didn't write that subject line either......)
My "June 15" comment was ORIGINALLY posted in the lengthy "Letter to Paul Holthus" thread, where it could have remained somewhat inconspicuous. Clearly one of the mods decided that it was worth opening a new can of worms.
As for Scott, he speaks his own mind, just as I do.
Jenn
MODERATORS: PLEASE - when you break off a thread to start a new one, please insert a "moderator comment" that you've done this. This is not the first time you have done this to one of my replies to an ongoing thread (the most notable other one was "ya reef killin hoser", I didn't write that subject line either......)
My "June 15" comment was ORIGINALLY posted in the lengthy "Letter to Paul Holthus" thread, where it could have remained somewhat inconspicuous. Clearly one of the mods decided that it was worth opening a new can of worms.
As for Scott, he speaks his own mind, just as I do.
Jenn
The problem lies in exactly which habits are formed, John.
If you can get BFAR to get effective CDT up and going by December, I will be impressed and grateful. There is bound to be a period of protocol-refinement anyway. I agree that getting it right is better than pleasing the peanut gallery.
Good luck!
If you can get BFAR to get effective CDT up and going by December, I will be impressed and grateful. There is bound to be a period of protocol-refinement anyway. I agree that getting it right is better than pleasing the peanut gallery.
Good luck!
Finally something realistic!
Horge, I too would like to see it done right, not just for the sake of doing it - but in the spirit of that, if it takes that long to get a good and proper testing protocol up and running, then there needs to be some truthfulness about certifications as they exist here and now. If the reality is December or beyond - so be it, but that makes the new June 25 target date rather redundant too.
The MAC press release entitled, "Finding Nemo FAQ" mentions cyanide specifically and goes on to state that people can feel confident that the specimen has been "harvested and handled to optimize the health of and minimize the stress on coral reefs and the fish themselves". While this MAY be true, without a test, they can no more guarantee a net caught specimen than anybody can. To the casual reader, it's easy to see where MAC is trying to state that theirs is the only way. Of course most of the people who receive that flyer won't be able to find a MAC retailer, let alone MAC fish... but that's another issue.
Why is MAC so reluctant to admit that the whole process is so much more than they anticipated, and tackle each problem as it presents? There is absolutely no sin in admitting that the project was more than they bargained for, and in fact a little truthfulness might go a long way toward repair.
What is/was the big hurry for certifications, if the proper infrastructure was not/is not in place?
IMO that is where the organization has given itself such a huge black eye, and given us loonies (as Mary called us *g*) so much to gripe about. "Test certifications" or "Pilot certifications" or something, while the bugs are ironed out -- in the software industry, it's beta testing... why not a beta version of MAC? IMO that would be a much more accurate label for the process, and give those powers that be, a chance to constructively deal with the issues as they come up. Instead, there's a whole lot of head-butting going on, and that's not productive at all.
Jenn
Horge, I too would like to see it done right, not just for the sake of doing it - but in the spirit of that, if it takes that long to get a good and proper testing protocol up and running, then there needs to be some truthfulness about certifications as they exist here and now. If the reality is December or beyond - so be it, but that makes the new June 25 target date rather redundant too.
The MAC press release entitled, "Finding Nemo FAQ" mentions cyanide specifically and goes on to state that people can feel confident that the specimen has been "harvested and handled to optimize the health of and minimize the stress on coral reefs and the fish themselves". While this MAY be true, without a test, they can no more guarantee a net caught specimen than anybody can. To the casual reader, it's easy to see where MAC is trying to state that theirs is the only way. Of course most of the people who receive that flyer won't be able to find a MAC retailer, let alone MAC fish... but that's another issue.
Why is MAC so reluctant to admit that the whole process is so much more than they anticipated, and tackle each problem as it presents? There is absolutely no sin in admitting that the project was more than they bargained for, and in fact a little truthfulness might go a long way toward repair.
What is/was the big hurry for certifications, if the proper infrastructure was not/is not in place?
IMO that is where the organization has given itself such a huge black eye, and given us loonies (as Mary called us *g*) so much to gripe about. "Test certifications" or "Pilot certifications" or something, while the bugs are ironed out -- in the software industry, it's beta testing... why not a beta version of MAC? IMO that would be a much more accurate label for the process, and give those powers that be, a chance to constructively deal with the issues as they come up. Instead, there's a whole lot of head-butting going on, and that's not productive at all.
Jenn
JennM":2bb2dwr0 said:
What does the time that Horge would be happy to see a CDT implemented have to do with when MAC states in its memo, and follow-up, that it will? MAC doesn't call Horge and ask when he would like to see a CDT happen.
MAC Certified fish are not caught with cyanide. One of the delays in getting more areas certified quickly is making sure that the collectors are not using cyanide.
MAC is quick to admit that the whole process is more complicated and labor-intensive than was anticipated. It also wasn't anticipating a cadre of folks who make a personal pastime out of bashing it while it gets up and running.
Want to know what the final straw that broke this camel's back was? During Marine Ornamentals '01 in Florida, I operated the AMDA booth next to the MAC booth. It was at this time that I was having serious doubts about MAC and had begun voicing them to the AMDA membership (I was the MAC rep to AMDA at the time). I had been telling MAC all along that they needed a pilot program and was assured there would be one, but at this conference MAC announced that certifications were beginning. My husband and I asked 2 different MAC people (David and Peter) why a pilot program hadn't been instituted. We received two different answers.
One said that 6 boxes had gone from the Philippines to Los Angeles with low mortality, one said 15 boxes had gone from the Philippines to Europe with extremely low mortalities. My husband and I asked many questions to both people- what species were shipped, how were they packed, etc... We were given the "We don't have that information here but will get it to you." I'm still waiting, 2 years later. We were also told that certification had to move forward now. For one thing, sending such a tiny shipment to only an importer and not following it through the chain does not constitue a pilot program to test the certification process. But the worst part of it was that my husband and I had been blatantly lied to. MAC couldn't even get their own story straight!! It was just 2 short months later that I resigned in disgust. In my opinion, MAC had to force certification through because of funding. They had been shuffling papers for years and the funding agencies were looking for results. And they were going to give them those results no matter what, and at the expense of true reform and the reefs.clarionreef
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- San Francisco
John,
You state correctly that MAC fish are not caught with cyanide.
What MAC fish?
Mandarins, batfish and the maroons were'nt caught with cyanide in the first place.
Half the chelmons were though and thanks to the intensive MAC presence there, the Buholian chelmon zone has been fully liberated.
This is actually an extremely modest achievement and one not to be proud of considering all the energy and attention paid to it.
Without serious diver training programs run competently and in important areas, ie. clown triggerfish, blue tang and angelfish zones. what will there be to supply all the marinelife dealers hoping for some certified fish to go with their certifications?
I can't even consider with a straight face the "progress" in the CDT and certification movement if it has in fact left the fish supply behind and out of the equation.
Impressing people looking for good news is easy...but marinelife dealers need something to sell besides paper, theory and "intended and hoped to achieve" policy.
A good team and the game plan to really get the divers producing beyond token and small results would go a long way to silencing the dissent of people who keep their eye on the ball.
The "attempt " and the "intention" to do 'good' is not the basis of achievement. It is merely a start. This thing has been "starting" for a long time now...actually a very long time.
It is for this reason that other field initiatives and teams will have to be considered to produce the missing fish supply. I was just hoping and many still are, that MAC would have more to do with field supply enhancement. Since MAC has pretty much decided not to work with CORL, I was wondering if they had something else in mind?
Sincerely, Steve Robinson
AMDA pres
You state correctly that MAC fish are not caught with cyanide.
What MAC fish?
Mandarins, batfish and the maroons were'nt caught with cyanide in the first place.
Half the chelmons were though and thanks to the intensive MAC presence there, the Buholian chelmon zone has been fully liberated.
This is actually an extremely modest achievement and one not to be proud of considering all the energy and attention paid to it.
Without serious diver training programs run competently and in important areas, ie. clown triggerfish, blue tang and angelfish zones. what will there be to supply all the marinelife dealers hoping for some certified fish to go with their certifications?
I can't even consider with a straight face the "progress" in the CDT and certification movement if it has in fact left the fish supply behind and out of the equation.
Impressing people looking for good news is easy...but marinelife dealers need something to sell besides paper, theory and "intended and hoped to achieve" policy.
A good team and the game plan to really get the divers producing beyond token and small results would go a long way to silencing the dissent of people who keep their eye on the ball.
The "attempt " and the "intention" to do 'good' is not the basis of achievement. It is merely a start. This thing has been "starting" for a long time now...actually a very long time.
It is for this reason that other field initiatives and teams will have to be considered to produce the missing fish supply. I was just hoping and many still are, that MAC would have more to do with field supply enhancement. Since MAC has pretty much decided not to work with CORL, I was wondering if they had something else in mind?
Sincerely, Steve Robinson
AMDA pres
Why is MAC even speaking out in the "Nemo" case. They can't supply certified Percs or Blue Tangs and both are tops in the trade. Why didn't/doesn't MAC push for trainings in hard to get to areas that ACTUALLY have the fish the trade is looking for. Blue Tangs, Clown Triggerfish, John, not Chelmons and Mandarins. Oh, by the way John, mandarins were always caught with out cyanide, so no real accomplishment there.
John_Brandt":3a73rxuj said:
Well perhaps I read Horge's post wrong (Horge, please correct me if I'm wrong), is that based on his knowledge/experience, he would anticipate that December 1 would be a more realistic date, factoring in for protocol adjustments and such. Since he's there, in PI, and since he recently visited the BFAR labs, I consider his comments to be absolutely relevant.
I'll defer to Gresham's comments about the currently available "certified" fish
Awww MAC's collective feelings are hurt by a few "cultish" (I prefer "loonies" as that sounds more fun) freaks who have nothing better to do than pick holes in their procedures. (this IS our livelihood after all, who could figure why we'd make any noise at all?) At first they tried winning us over, now they are just trying to make us look like nutjobs -- interesting strategy.... It's only in the last few weeks that the undertone of reform minded MAC critics have begun to become referred to (publically, anyway) with derogatory names... is that a coincidence? Methinks not.
Jenn
clarionreef
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- San Francisco
I got the answer!
Wanting the fish supply to be trained for BEFORE promotion and certification it!
Clearly a lunatic notion.
Steve
Wanting the fish supply to be trained for BEFORE promotion and certification it!
Clearly a lunatic notion.
Steve
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