The Philippines, net training, key players/ Relevant info.

[naesco]

Mike I received the information that the first of the nets purchased with funds donated by reefers were given to them on or about August 1/03 from reviewing www.seacrop.com

Wayne,

A while back I posted something regarding this here.
It seemed important to me to convey something I have done repeatedly:
Ferdinand is very concerned about appearances. He wants to be sure that the donated MSI netting is distributed in a fair and equitable way, and that there is a policy in place before distribution of the donated netting occurs.
So far, none of this netting has been distributed.
Mary has indicated here that she is going to be satisfied with whatever system Ferdinand puts into place.
From my last conversation with him, it was clear that he considers it his responsibility to be open and forthright with how the netting would be distributed, and a policy would be put into place.

The pictures of the netting you saw being distributed was actually not from the rolls. So your information is wrong.

Are you still in contact with Fergie?

Well, I haven't spoken to Brian in a few weeks. Why? Do you need a good skimmer? His are top-rate!

Regards.
Mike Kirda

I meant Ferdie, sorry.
But Mike how could my information that some of the netting has been given to some fisherman almost 3 weeks ago be wrong.
I got that information from Ferdinands report to Mary on www.seacrop.com

 

[MaryHM]

This may clear up the confusion. The nets were not given to collectors in San Salvador/Zambales as you have stated, Wayne. They were given to collectors in Appari.

 

[mkirda]

how could my information that some of the netting has been given to some fisherman almost 3 weeks ago be wrong.
I got that information from Ferdinands report to Mary on www.seacrop.com

Read this thread, Naesco. I already answered this question. I'm tired of answering this question. See my response to Lee. My attempt to clarify the situation seems to only have muddied the water for reasons unknown.

It seems like you are just trying to find some chink in the armor.

If you have any other questions, refer them all to Mary.
After all, this is her net fund and she is the point person really.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

Wayne,
Weren't we hoping for more responsible behavior from 'industry?
Now that there has been some, ie shipment of the "missing netting" in serious quantity that all the NGO's missed, you seem to be hoping for an irregularity in its distribution.
That hardly squares with your previous thesis that industry must be more pro-active.
Just because a faulty chain of gossip made its way to you from a fellow industry critic, doesn't mean you need to dignify it and taint your original posture of 'higher purpose.'
There is no "smoking gun" about. Thats the smoke coming from the ears of your frustrated and bitter informant.
Return to the higher ground Wayne. Don't let him ruin the nobility of your original movement".
Steve

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Mike, allow the readers to have their own opinion. The idea readers had was that Ferdinand was the dedicated and passionated field trainer working on his own. If you read the thread. How is Imperial? and What MAC can do? you'll see that never was stated that Ferdinand was exporter or had a related business. That can change readers point of view. There is information that is vital and must be disclosed when dealing with sensitive matters as the one we're addressing here. The question that probably won't get answer is to know if Ferdinand is in parternship with Imperial. If you recall something else please let us know.

Jaime,

I have never thought or tried to lay claim to 'the only way'.
Diversity in thought and opinion is important to me- Remember, I work within academia.

You seem to think that the fact that Ferdie once worked in a family fish exporting business is somehow earthshatteringly important. That the fact that he did so now makes him tainted and untrustworthy in any way. At the very least, this is what you insinuate.

Over the course of the time we were together, I can only tell you of my thoughts and impressions. They are my opinions and my opinions alone.

Ferdie talked about the fish business quite a bit. It is apparent that there is a bit of a love-hate relationship there. His heart was never really in running the business, and this is readily apparent.

When Ferdie starts to talk about the collectors, there is this amazing change. His face lights up. He smiles. His eyes sparkle. He becomes far more animated. He is in his element. His ethusiasm is infective, his passions he wears on his sleeve.

There is much to admire about the man. I would also have to confess that there is a lot I do not know about him. I do not know his mother's name, although I have spoken to her a half dozen times. I've met his daughter a couple of times, her nickname was Cheka, but I have no idea what her real name is. He has another daughter of which I am aware, but I do not know much about her. He has a wife, whom I have also spoken with, but I do not know her name either. He is somewhat private, chosing not to speak about these things with me. Is this out of a regard for privacy, or do you ascribe it to hiding something, Jaime?

If I gave the readers of this forum the impression that Ferdie is a dedicated and impassioned field trainer, then I guess I did a pretty good job of conveying my feelings without ever giving them a lot of thought...
Sorry to the readers of this forum that I never considered Ferdie's involvement in the second family export business 'vital' or 'sensitive' in any way. It was not my intention to mislead anyone, if in fact anyone was mislead. You deem this information vital, Jaime. Now it is out there for everyone to make up their own opinion.

As far as the final question, Is Ferdie involved in a business relationship with Imperial Marine? I've already answered it to the best of my knowledge. Contact me privately for his phone number: I suggest that you give him a ring and ask him yourself so you can get this whole thing cleared up once and for all.

And one final point, Jaime: Wasn't I the one to tell people repeatedly that they should go to the Philippines and meet with Ferdie and the collectors, and make up their own minds?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Mike,

There are aspects that are irrelevant to the issue we are addressing here.
Better to keep them for yourself.

You see, in only 36 hours you and Peter Rubec helped to upgrade Ferdinand's CV. His background has been improved. Ferdinand is a good trainer but also has experience in the export business as exco-owner of a
fish facility in Manila.

The other question about Ferdinand's relation with Imperial/ or the other exporter.... let me see the e-mail... here it is.. RVS. Ferdinand said " Now I have these collectors diverting half their shipments to Imperial and Habitat" I guess the other half is going to RVS. Do you know who is RVS?
As you can see this gets more complicated.

Regards

Jaime

[/b]

 

[clarionreef]

Mike,
Let me translate,
Jaime wants to know why Ferdie doesn't reccomend that the divers work for exporters who pay them less.
Habitat, Imperial and RVA agree to and do pay the netcaught boys more for their effort now.
The old cyanide fish dealers would like to have some more netcaught fish to mix in their inventories, but they won't reward the divers with a penny more. So, they don't get the fish!
Simple isn't it?
Steve

 

[mkirda]

Simple isn't it?
Steve

Oh so simple...

Thanks, Steve.

I was bogged down trying to figure out how to explain such a fundamentally simple concept.

Jaime, there is an old saying that applies here: Don't put all your eggs into one basket.

Ferdinand has contacts all over the industry. As we have explained to you before, he will introduce divers he works with to exporters he knows will pay them a good price. The point is he is working to try to get them a better deal than they could get from the PTFEA members.

That he spreads the wealth around a bit only means that he is trying to build market support for net-caught fish.

As far as RVS- I'm not interested in covering this. If you think it that important, go ahead and divulge whatever it is that you want to divulge.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Jaime wrote;
"I believe in right and wrong and I have always chosen right".
Really?
...'ALWAYS CHOSEN RIGHT?"
Then forgive us and allow us to reconcile ourselves to your infallibility .Shouldn't you re-word that a bit?
You also say that Ferdie helped his sister and also his mother? For shame, for shame!

And for the record, I have not imported from Imperial since May...but, because of your posts I think I'll ask for a stock report and perhaps resume.
Steve
You gotta get better stories and better information guy.

Cortes Marine wrote.

And for the record, I have not imported from Imperial since May...

More inconsistencies. Please check thread Who's Imperial and you'll see the dates and statements made. may 30 Cortes M. said I spend thousands of dollars with them (Imperial).

 

[mkirda]

More inconsistencies.

Oh, for cripes sake again...

Jaime,

This is getting ridiculous. Absurd to the extreme.
You keep probing and probing, throwing up accusations, innuendo and insinuations. It is like you are throwing mud at us, hoping that some of it sticks.

For once in your life, can you at least admit that getting the hand netting material to the Philippines was a good thing?
That it was not available before?
That it is now?

For whatever reason, you do not like Ferdinand Cruz, and you are trying really, really hard to discredit him and anyone associated with him and the netting fund. Is there a reason behind this personal animosity? Is there a reason why you keep flinging the mud?

Keep going if you want. But I will tell you something: All this squabbling will do nothing to serve the higher purpose. You seem to be like a bucket of crabs right now. Any crab that tries to get out gets latched onto by others and pulled back down. This does not serve the interests of reform in any way, Jaime. Surely you can see this.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

And for the record, I have not imported from Imperial since May...

More inconsistencies. Please check thread Who's Imperial and you'll see the dates and statements made. may 30 Cortes M. said I spend thousands of dollars with them (Imperial)

.

Huh? Samentics, Jamie. May 30th is May. Inconsistant? Ooops, spend should have been spent.

Hey Greshman no your business.

Umm, maybe, "Hey Gresham, none of your business". Thats fine, I found all I needed last night, cached on search engines and other sites. Its amazing how many dead links to OVI releted stuff are out there. Man, there all so dated too, nothing from the century, all are from the 90's.

And in the style of Jamie:

Greshamh,

I don't like to waste readers time talking about myself.

In short: I've been in the marine aquarium industry since 1987. I consider myself as a successful Marine Biologist- Consultant aquarist.

1)I've worked behind the counter, also trained staff from different stores about water quality criteria acclimatation techniques, medication treatments, quarantine, and husbandry practices, aspects that without doubt helped to keep DAA lower.

2) I have worked with store owners assisting them in importing operations and training staff about how to handle the new arrivals ( marine ornamental fish)

3) I have imported marine ornamentals for my business operation.

4) I conducted a workshop for the Philippine Tropical Fish Exporters Association " Philippine's Marine Ornamental Fish Trade and Its Future" in which the main topics were water quality criteria , handling and holding to collectors level.

5) I conducted many workshops at community level (in the Philippines) the main subject were water quality, handling and holding. Important to diminish damage inflicted to fish while at this level. The result lowering DOA/DAA

6) Speaker during MACNA X . Informing, importers, retailers and hobbyist about water quality, handling and holding at community level, seeking for their support to help to reverse the situation.

7) Speaker Marine aquarium clubs in Canada. Educating hobbyist about different aspects of the trade.

Jaime

Wait, you helped run an export business (well set-up one, you left poor Me Me to run it), you conducted field training, and YOU imported fish for your own business? Conspiracy!!!! Conflict of interest!!! Hang um Chuck, he's no good.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

More inconsistencies.

Oh, for cripes sake again...

Jaime,

This is getting ridiculous. Absurd to the extreme.
You keep probing and probing, throwing up accusations, innuendo and insinuations. It is like you are throwing mud at us, hoping that some of it sticks.

For once in your life, can you at least admit that getting the hand netting material to the Philippines was a good thing?
That it was not available before?
That it is now?

For whatever reason, you do not like Ferdinand Cruz, and you are trying really, really hard to discredit him and anyone associated with him and the netting fund. Is there a reason behind this personal animosity? Is there a reason why you keep flinging the mud?

Keep going if you want. But I will tell you something: All this squabbling will do nothing to serve the higher purpose. You seem to be like a bucket of crabs right now. Any crab that tries to get out gets latched onto by others and pulled back down. This does not serve the interests of reform in any way, Jaime. Surely you can see this.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Mike,

All this is not ridiculuos neither absurd . It is informative.

Yes, it is good thing that nets, supplied by stakeholders (honest hobbyists and a reduce group of retailers and importers) of the industry in the US,
finally got to the Philippines after almost two decades of begging. It took a while for the people in the U.S to realize that it was time to put something back.

However, I must underline that statements made by your group are not accurate. You guys are making the readers believe that nets didn't exist in the Philippines before your recent deliveries. That statement is not accurate. Exporters in the Philippines have been supplying netting to collectors working for them, this has been happening for years now. Ferdinand can confirm you that.

It is possible that Plutarco, Jose and Filemon who live in remote areas where exporters are not operating do not have nets. Ferdinand wants to be there because is there where you'll find the high value fish and variety.

Someone in your group made another false statement making the readers believe that it was the task and responsibility of NGOs to provide nets to all the fisherfolks in the Philippines. You have a ridiculous and absurd to the extreme statement

Is not that I don't like Ferdinand, the truth is that I do not trust him.

Following why.

I knew that Ferdinand resigned or was fired from IMA and MAC. After that he began to bash IMA and MAC. I had my reserves about the individual because of what I learnt first hand during my trips to the Philippines. To add to it, recently I got a bunch of (forward) e-mails (without asking for them) from where I got information about the "behind the scene activities". I am still wondering why those e-mails were sent to me. Probably is one of your crabs that wants the can of worms open. Who knows?

The messages that you guys posted in the threads Who is imperial? and What MAC can do? didn't help.

Regards

Jaime

 

[Anonymous]

Double post - man this is loading so slow today.

 

[Anonymous]

I've been trying for 10 minutes to delete that double post, it won't let me submit my changed post. Hmm. Maybe its the Blaster Worm.

Hey Jamie,

You act like its new news to you that Steve is in fact a commercial diver as well as a trainer. You've known this since you started up with OVI. Remember this:

The Haribon Netsman Program

The net training programme of the Haribon Foundation was conceived in 1989 as a result of the growing problem of cyanide use and its effects on coral reefs.
In 1984, Steve Robinson, a professional fish collector from the Sea of Cortez, Mexico, returned to the Philippines to participate in a programme to train Filipinos in the use of nets for collecting marine fish. Sponsored by the Environmental Center of the Philippines, a 10-day training course was developed and implemented for two classes of fishermen from Santiago Island, Bolinao and Pangasinan. A third training course was held in Bohol.
Since then, a number of international agencies have shown interest in supporting the net training programme. In January 1989, a grant from the International Development and Research Center of Canada was obtained to implement a nationwide training programme. The Haribon Foundation and International Marinelife Alliance Canada were chosen to implement the programme then known as the Netsman Training Program.

Why did Haribon recruit Steve to train, if there was such a confict of interest? Why did OVI publish articles of Steve's in their newsletter Sea Wind?

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Double post - man this is loading so slow today.

Greshman,

I appreciate your comments about the mistakes I made in my post. My English is not as good as yours, but I do not feel bad at all. English is my third lenguage after Spanish and French. Es una riqueza cultural el poder si quiera tratar de comunicarse en el idioma de otras personas. Comprendes? De tout facon ca vaut pas la peine.

I helped the PMP to set up their holding facility in Parañaque. Ramon Atayde, fish exporter was helping Meme with it. Meme got very good at it.

I didn't conduct any field net training. I organized and conducted workshops about handling, holding and water quality criteria in different communities.

I got two trial shipments through my business. This was before PMP delivered the first shipments to customers in Canada and overseas. We needed to know how they were shipping. Ottawa and Montreal were very bad locations to import fish directly from Manila . The total travel time was close to 40 hours by then, I do not know how long it could take today.

OVI's BOD was notified and they agreed on having those shipments. The fish were sold to customers who paid for shipping and the cost of the fish.
After that I didn't get any fish from PMP, but I did follow up some shipments they sent to buyers in Ottawa and Montreal, the results were not very good because of TTT.

In my business I get fish from a local suppliers. Some times I get fish/inv. from suppliers in west canada. I tried suppliers in the US but it didn't work. I found that in my business I can make money when I DO NOT buy fish.

Jaime

 

[Jaime Baquero]

I've been trying for 10 minutes to delete that double post, it won't let me submit my changed post. Hmm. Maybe its the Blaster Worm.

Hey Jamie,

You act like its new news to you that Steve is in fact a commercial diver as well as a trainer. You've known this since you started up with OVI. Remember this:

The Haribon Netsman Program

The net training programme of the Haribon Foundation was conceived in 1989 as a result of the growing problem of cyanide use and its effects on coral reefs.
In 1984, Steve Robinson, a professional fish collector from the Sea of Cortez, Mexico, returned to the Philippines to participate in a programme to train Filipinos in the use of nets for collecting marine fish. Sponsored by the Environmental Center of the Philippines, a 10-day training course was developed and implemented for two classes of fishermen from Santiago Island, Bolinao and Pangasinan. A third training course was held in Bohol.
Since then, a number of international agencies have shown interest in supporting the net training programme. In January 1989, a grant from the International Development and Research Center of Canada was obtained to implement a nationwide training programme. The Haribon Foundation and International Marinelife Alliance Canada were chosen to implement the programme then known as the Netsman Training Program.

Why did Haribon recruit Steve to train, if there was such a confict of interest? Why did OVI publish articles of Steve's in their newsletter Sea Wind?

Greshman,

I do not know if by that time Robinson had a business as he has today. One thing for sure he wasn't the president of the American Marine Dealers Association

jaime

 

[Anonymous]

Well since he's been in business since 1978 (been stated many times here), was commercially collecting for his OWN business at the time, I'd say he was in business as he is now. In fact, he was much, much larger back then.

 

[Anonymous]

With all the power that comes along with being AMDA president, I can see why your worried about him. LMAO :lol: . Hey Mitch, what benifits do you get from being on the AMDA BOD? Do you get more business? Can you use your influence to change indusrty in your favor? Do tell. I can only speculate Jamie, that being on an NGO BOD, has tainted your view of all others. Did you see conspiracy and/or corruption?

 

[Jaime Baquero]

With all the power that comes along with being AMDA president, I can see why your worried about him. LMAO :lol: . Hey Mitch, what benifits do you get from being on the AMDA BOD? Do you get more business? Can you use your influence to change indusrty in your favor? Do tell. I can only speculate Jamie, that being on an NGO BOD, has tainted your view of all others. Did you see conspiracy and/or corruption?

Greshman,

If you had a business and you were the president of MAFA ( the Moon Aquarium Fish Association) and you collected funds to buy nets go to Indonesia to train collectors and you worked with someone in Indonesia to divert the collected fish to a facility that later would sell those fish to your business, you would be in a situation of conflict of interest. It is different to conspiracy or corruption, you are the one using those terms. Please check my spelling and use of verbs. Thanks in advance

Regards

Jaime

 

[mkirda]

If you had a business and you were the president of MAFA ( the Moon Aquarium Fish Association) and you collected funds to buy nets go to Indonesia to train collectors and you worked with someone in Indonesia to divert the collected fish to a facility that later would sell those fish to your business, you would be in a situation of conflict of interest.

Jaime,

Can you explain to me who is holding the gun to the head of the collectors, forcing them to sell to only one exporter, and who is holding the gun to the head of that exporter, forcing them to sell those fish to only one importer?

You are describing the economy of Communist Russia, not the (at least mostly) free market in the Philippines. The collectors are free to sell their fish to the highest bidder. If that bidder is Lolita Ty, then so be it. If Guia or Marivi or Imperial or RVS or Jaime's Funky Fresh Fish, so be it...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Mike,
Let me translate,
Jaime wants to know why Ferdie doesn't reccomend that the divers work for exporters who pay them less.
Habitat, Imperial and RVA agree to and do pay the netcaught boys more for their effort now.
The old cyanide fish dealers would like to have some more netcaught fish to mix in their inventories, but they won't reward the divers with a penny more. So, they don't get the fish!
Simple isn't it?
Steve

More inconsistencies. Please read http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthrea ... did=223278 according to the answers posted, after the fishers get the nets they can do with the fish they collect whatever they want. They can sell them to any buyer..... including the bad ones. So....