The Philippines, net training, key players/ Relevant info.

[Anonymous]

Major advertising for MAC will soon be appearing. The phrase...MAC Certified retailers may carry both MAC Certified organisms and those that are not MAC Certified. Only those tanks carrying the MAC Certified label contain MAC Certified organisms.... will be prominent in the ads.

John, is there a reason why the wording doesn't say "...net caught organisms and those that are caught with cyanide." Then it could explain that MAC Certified = 100% net caught.

Thanks in advance for the info.

Peace,

Chip

 

[Anonymous]

Steve,

Nice to "meet" you. I haven't met you personally, but I have the feeling that I know you very well. You were part of our regular conversations with Don. He did admire you because all the work done in the Philippines.

Many years of work, two goals. 1) Help to protect coral reefs 2) help fisherfolks and consequently the marine aquarium industry.

To get there : Different programs funded by international government agencies were developed and fish collectors learnt a simple by efficient technique to collect ornamental fish without damaging the coral reefs. The Netsman project was reinforced with other programs " Environmental Education" and "Sustainable Livelihoods" to make sure we were dealing with more than the net training programs, listening and responding to fisherfloks concerns. Since 1988? you, Peter, Vaughn Pratt and Don McAllister began a great work. Many things were accomplished but the problem is still there.

What happened? I know the response is simple. We have been talking about all kind of things CDT, MAC, PTFEA, Chain of Custody, EFM, CFH,HHT Standars, IMA etc etc But no one chapter about the fish collectors, the problem. People they do forget that the fish collectors are the ones spreading cyanide, cyanide doesn't get to the coral reef ecosystem by itself.

What are their economic and social needs? Should the industry in countries where cyanide is used be active and deal with social and economic problems of their basic working force? What would happen if fish collectors in the Philippines decide to go on strike? (that would be good for the reefs). Today, fish collectors in the Philippines are unhappy and demoralized. All the actors working around the problem are making money except the collectors.

It doesn't matter how many millions of dollars "them" will invest doing this and that..... the results won't be there. Reduce the expenses, concentrate the work on the fishers finding solutions to their problems. MAC should stand to defend fish collectors if they want to see concrete and positive results.

Jaime
_________________
As marine biologist I worked different projects in the Philippines. I have a good idea what is going on there.

Jaime -

Heres your initial praise for the work done by Steve with Haribon in PI.
How did you come to change you mind since you posted this, earlier this year? A full 360.
Why? Was is because of financial irregularities?
I agree there needs to be transparancy and scrutiny, but you gotta know where to look it seems.
BTW, what did happen to the 150K Canadian after Steve resigned?

 

[clarionreef]

Gosh Jamie,
I had forgotten how we met. I'm speechless...thanks.
I was just leaving a false and phoney group that I gave life to on this issue and had just finished training a few hundred divers. Then we ran out of the netting material that I brought over. The 150K HAD NETTING IN THE BUDGET SO WE CAN COULD GET MORE AND FINISH TRAINING THE DIVERS. This was not to be however, as they coveted that money and refused to use it, or much of it for the purpose of training!
Naesco...are you listening?
Can you help trace the lack of netting in the budget? Can you apply that keen insight to the issue of keeping the funds for that which it was intended and squandering the program?
Of course after a great deal of effort...I had to resign rather than continue training with no netting. It would have been dishonest to pretend to train if the netting were non existant and back then there was no AMDA or MSI to supply it.
As I left for reasons of principal, the niche became available for other people to occupy it with no principals...no netting and no chance to convert the divers. This didn't phase them at all. Years later I learned that Hariibon was still trying to figure out how to keep the gravy train of funding going this give entry to Jaimes involvement as a service guy adressing "water quality concerns and handling".
If ever there was a smoking gun to be found in financial irregularities and misappropriation of moneys allocated, this is the real one and the one that set this issue off down the wrong road.
The momentum to train with both kinds of netting in hand never got right after that and divers backslid in droves.
Now, 10 years later, the result of failures to really train requires that we finally get it right.
The only apologist for this premeditated and planned hijacking of the issue is Jamie B. Now do you all see the roots of our past and the reason for our conflict?
But yes... I thank him for those kind words before he knew I had a thing against Haribons long chain of financial irregularities and lonely fight to not sell out and join the gravy train.
WE NEED TO BE TRANSPARENT AND KEEP THINGS ABOVE BOARD. BUT NOT SO LONG AGO, there was an organization that did not.
And that is a moment of history that needs to be understood before anyone is ever accused of bickering over shallow things.
There are many, many more things like this that turned this diver trainer against "certain" NGOS. To not turn against them would have been 'complicity' in the crime and treason to my trade.
Now, these characters are out of the way and we can get it right. I hope to see you all visit the AMDA room at MACNA and share in the new NET TRAINING initiatives being fostered.
Thanks Sincerely, Steve
former [what else] Haribon net trainer

 

[flameangel1]

Steve,
Thanks for putting things out in the open-calm down though-many of us DO realize what has been going on with the inuendoes here !!

When some one (such as has been done by Naesco and Jaime) starts throwing out all kinds of threats and hints but is NOT willing to say What they are referring to openly, I do hope all who read them, realize that something smells fishy !!!! No offense to the fish- :wink: !!!

What we all must realize, is that hobbyists read this forum, do not know the background of a lot of this industry stuff or the people one can trust and not trust, and will just take anyones word as they read it.
For those of us who do know what is going on behind the scenes, we take a lot of the threats and innuendoes, with a grain of salt !!!!
Keep up the good work--You too Mike K and just know that a lot of us are behind you.
And yes, Naesco, I am part of INDUSTRY !!!!

 

[MaryHM]

I got over 15 PM from readers expressing support.

You know what I find interesting? Jaime and Naesco both tout the extensive support they supposedly get in private. But not a single one of those fervent supporters have enough conviction in what either of these two are saying to step forward publicly and support their "heroes". I didn't even receive 15 individual pms about the netting material fundraiser- and it was a lot more visible than this thread. Just for the record Jaime, one person going back and forth with you in pm 15 times does not equal 15 readers expressing support.

 

[Fish World1]

Steve,

Thanks for posting the info. As a fairly new person to this side of the hobby I don't know everything that happened in the past. As the saying goes, those who don't know their history are doomed to repeat it.

 

[clarionreef]

Ouch,
That doomed to repeat it point hit home.
In this "one more time!" go around with net training, I feel like the Bill Murray character in Groundhog day!
Thanks for your support, Steve

 

[mkirda]

Steve,

Thanks for posting the info. As a fairly new person to this side of the hobby I don't know everything that happened in the past. As the saying goes, those who don't know their history are doomed to repeat it.

Fish world.

Talking to a collector who attended the trainings, it was described as this:

We were shown on land how to use the nets. We ate. Afterwards, they took the nets with them, so we had no nets to use. It was stupid. Only thing I got out of it was a lunch, and even it wasn't very good.

Paraphrased and toned down.

Now, I have no doubt that the people left did the best that they could under the circumstances. But the word got around, and the deal was you could show up and get a free meal. That was about all that the collectors got out of it- according to them.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

Well I sent a supportive p.m. to Jaime. Maybe to the REEForm guy too. Maybe the reason they have supportive p.m.'s is because some of you other folks would take public support of thier efforts to bash them as well as Jaime. I suspect that there are many lirking readers here that do not want to open themselves up for insult but appreciate someone voicing a 'differing' point of view and questioning the unquestionable. So private support rather than public support.

I'm just starting to understand how much information you peolpe had about about Imperial and Ferd. Instead of helping you chose to stonewall and insult. Looks like you are doing the same thing to Jaime.

Bottom line is that Ferd is an unknown quantiuty. Wish he'd answer the questions about what he is doing rather than Mike Kirda. Ferd has posted here in the past. We know that he can come up with netting money from the exporters when it suits him. When he was the net trianing guy for MAC he didn't do that. Wasn't he reponsible for the success of the MAC training efforts and pull down a huge salary? Did he try to get net money from the MAC exporters or MAC? The exporters make the money from the fish sales, right? Let them buy some net. For the very few MAC collectors that there are Ferd could have bankrolled for a a roll of netting material himself if he is so trueblue to the cause.

Thank you Jaime for asking a few questions!

 

[dizzy]

Major advertising for MAC will soon be appearing. The phrase...MAC Certified retailers may carry both MAC Certified organisms and those that are not MAC Certified. Only those tanks carrying the MAC Certified label contain MAC Certified organisms.... will be prominent in the ads.

From the MAC Website:

How to Find MAC Certified Organisms


* Look for retail shops with the MAC Certified label in the window and then within the shop look for the tank(s) that are also labeled “Marine Aquarium Council Certified.”

* MAC Certified retailers may carry both MAC Certified organisms and those that are not MAC Certified. Only those tanks carrying the MAC Certified label contain MAC Certified organisms.

* Some retailers may have a MAC Certificate of Registration posted in their shop but do not have a MAC Certified label in their window. This means the facilities have been certified to handle organisms in a manner consistent with the MAC Standards but they have not yet had access to MAC Certified marine ornamentals from MAC Certified suppliers. When the retailer starts to provide MAC Certified marine ornamentals from a MAC Certified supplier they will be able to use the MAC Certified labels to identify the certified organisms.

I agree with Mike that there is some information in the above post that needs to be moved to another thread so it can be properly discussed. That last paragraph seems odd to me. Also I am stilled confused about want Ferdie is alledged to have done and all that bit about Mary, Steve, and Mike being cooked. If Jaime is trying to character assassinate these people he needs to do a better job of providing evidence.

 

[mkirda]

I'm just starting to understand how much information you peolpe had about about Imperial and Ferd. Instead of helping you chose to stonewall and insult. Looks like you are doing the same thing to Jaime.

Bottom line is that Ferd is an unknown quantiuty. Wish he'd answer the questions about what he is doing rather than Mike Kirda. Ferd has posted here in the past. We know that he can come up with netting money from the exporters when it suits him. When he was the net trianing guy for MAC he didn't do that. Wasn't he reponsible for the success of the MAC training efforts and pull down a huge salary? Did he try to get net money from the MAC exporters or MAC? The exporters make the money from the fish sales, right? Let them buy some net. For the very few MAC collectors that there are Ferd could have bankrolled for a a roll of netting material himself if he is so trueblue to the cause.

Thank you Jaime for asking a few questions!

Sardonic,

First of all, Ferdie is in the field most of the time. I tried nightly for two weeks to get ahold of him a little while back- I knew he was near a larger city. Turns out, the only way he could get a signal was by climbing a rather large hill (30 minutes up), then standing absolutely still while talking. (Knowing Ferdie, this is difficult for him to do...)

When he is in Manila where he has computer access, he does communicate, but it is actually better to get him on the phone, if possible.

As far as getting the netting himself... Wow...
Ok, you realize that the average salary per year in the Philippines is $1000 per year, right? And that the netting we sent over was $4000, right? That is four times the average salary.

Let's say the average salary in the US is $20,000. Do you realize you are asking him to front the equivalent of $80,000? I mean, this is not a small chunk of change for any Filipino. Unless your last name is Ayala or Marcos.

But the truth is this: I see this as a fundamentally Filipino issue. There is very, very little that we can do here other than try to educate fellow hobbyists on the issues in the Philippines.

Ferdie's job is not education of hobbyists, but to go to an area and do the whole package... Go out and assess the reefs. Meet with the divers to get their interest. Meet with the local government to formally allow collection and issue the diver's permits. Train the divers in how to use nets. Upgrade their skills over time. Train them in how to care for the fish and how to ship them. Introduce them to buyers. Get them to do a management plan. Get them to figure out where to set up a no-take area. Get all the relevant local players involved, and get everyone on-board.

Dealing with the government takes the longest time, but when the divers are trained, and the fish arrive in Manila after an 18 hour over the road trip by Jeepney and have a less than 2% DOA, Ferdie is proud because he has accomplished something.

Then on to the next village to start the process all over again.

Did you really want him to spend his time in front of the computer talking about what he wants to do? Or would you rather he be out in the field actually doing it?

I, for one, am glad he is actually doing it.

As far as the netting goes, I'm actually looking into that some more.
I'll have some more information later, after I get the information compiled.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[MaryHM]

Sardonic,

Thanks for speaking up. First of all, Jaime was the one who start with the insulting, condescending posts by attacking Ferdinand, his motives, and his character without being willing to put forth the evidence he is quoting. Those of us who know Ferdie and what he is doing take great offense at this. Finally, someone is willing to get reform on the right track and those who have failed in the past are determined to tear him and his efforts down. It's sickening and reeks of jealousy and revenge. I worry about people taking Jaime's innuendo at face value without knowing the facts. And since up until this point Jaime is unwilling to provide us with the facts...

Mike is dead on about why Ferdie isn't sitting here wasting time posting. He is in the field 90% of the time. I can rarely get in touch with him. My emails are generally returned in about 2 weeks from the time they're sent. You see, Ferdie doesn't have the luxury the rest of us do- to sit behind a computer screen for hours and discuss reform. He's actually out there doing something. Training collectors. Helping to reform this industry.

Concerning why MAC didn't have the netting, here is what I have heard. I'm not saying this is 100% pure fact, but I have heard it from 2 different sources. Ferdinand was told to draw up a training budget. In this budget he put netting material. That item was crossed off and he was told it was not necessary. Of course, you don't need proper materials to create the illusion of reform. You just need a bunch of people who are willing to keep their mouths shut and draw a paycheck. The fact that you hold it against Ferdinand for not bankrolling the netting himself is so absurd and ridiculous I can't even comment on it.

 

[mkirda]

That item was crossed off and he was told it was not necessary.

Mary,

I have a feeling it could be explained why this was done, but I'm not sure that it would be a good enough reason.

MAC went into this thinking that the net training was taken care of. What they didn't count on was the fact that 2500 people showed up at net trainings did not mean that there were actually 2500 collectors out there using nets on a daily basis. The truth was there was maybe 1/10th the number.

I believe that MAC expects the exporters to import and sell the nets to the collectors. They did not want to be in the business of giving out handouts.
They limited their liability, IMO.

After they really got in and saw the truth, I'm not sure why they didn't change their tune. John and I have discussed the netting situation several times over the past year, and we both have different opinions. Sure, it would be great if the exporters sold the proper netting, but the information I have so far tells me that they do sell netting, but it is not really the proper kind of netting. You can catch fish with it, but it is not as effective as the good stuff.

In other words, it is like using a butter knife as a screw driver- it works... Kinda... But it is not the proper tool for the job.

Sometimes I think MAC will not listen to advice of certain individuals, no matter how good that advice is. And that is a shame. There are a few steps that they could take that would make a lot of difference and earn them a lot of respect. One would be to ensure that the proper netting gets into the hands of the collectors, without having to have someone fly over with it in their luggage and hand it to them personally.

Interesting day, eh? I'm actually defending the MAC here...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Nancy Swart]

Steve,

Thanks for posting the info. As a fairly new person to this side of the hobby I don't know everything that happened in the past. As the saying goes, those who don't know their history are doomed to repeat it.

Fish world.

Talking to a collector who attended the trainings, it was described as this:

We were shown on land how to use the nets. We ate. Afterwards, they took the nets with them, so we had no nets to use. It was stupid. Only thing I got out of it was a lunch, and even it wasn't very good.

Paraphrased and toned down.

Now, I have no doubt that the people left did the best that they could under the circumstances. But the word got around, and the deal was you could show up and get a free meal. That was about all that the collectors got out of it- according to them.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Mike,

What does this refer to? Timeframe....trainer...location???

Nancy

 

[mkirda]

Mike,

What does this refer to? Timeframe....trainer...location???

Nancy

Sorry, thought that was clear from the context...

Trainings under Haribon, specifically after Steve left.

The collector was from Zambales. I do not recall that he told me the trainer's name, but he mentioned two girls from University of the Philippines.

But this is old news. Sorta like talking about the Viet Cong instead of Al Qaeda. I only offer it because what the collectors told me corroborates what Steve has said... I understand the history all too well.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

...It just shows that people really want cradle-to-grave accountability regarding how donated money/materials are spent/used...

In re-reading this thread I wanted to make it very clear that I was in no way trying to criticize the Mary Middlebrook/MSI netting project. In every conceivable way the MSI netting project was exactly as advertised and open to public scrutiny. It was one of the most level-headed and successful things done for ecological reform in the marine ornamental industry in a long time. It will in many ways be the standard against which other programs will be judged.

After reading some of the dickering that goes on on the boards I just wanted to give Mary (and those that helped her) a public thank you for a job well done.

Sincerely,
Lee Morey

 

[MaryHM]

Thank you for the support, Lee. It's quite frustrating to be lumped into some conspiracy theory when nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[clarionreef]

Mike and Mary,
If you keep exhibiting this kind of clarity and understanding about the situation, I can and will gladly take a back seat.
The minimization of the importance of the netting types has always been based on the ignorance of each and every reform group head.
It started with Haribon and worked its way to MAC.
THE LAST AMDA PRESIDENT DISCUSSED THIS WITH MACS DAVE VOSLEER AND DAVID TOLD HIM THAT THE NETTING THING WAS OVERBLOWN AND NOT THAT IMPORTANT.
I remember this very well as it was the day my predecessor lost some respect for the MAC mission.
They can't admit it publicly, but they accept the need for netting now...only now and would still like to get some. Finally....in the year 2003 it is understood by a reform NGO that without the proper netting, it is hard to get the proper results from training.
As a substitute for this netting we have seen these 'REFORM GROUPS" employ mosquito netting and gill netting, white cotton netting and opague nylon netting. And this was just to try and fake it on the barrier netting need. As far as the handnetting went, they never understood it and never supplied it.
However...everything to run the offices to report on their 'progress' was never lacking.
This is how non fish people and outsiders fake it. Its not that they mean to do it but they figure out that it couldn't be such a big deal, like Mikes butterknife example.
To me, a real collector all my life, its like making us play football with an armadillo... or tennis with a badmitton raquet. Like bowling with a cantalope or trying to do a tune-up with vise-grips.
I can't hardly imagine how numb and 'out of it' one has to be to pretend to have the answer and blow tens of thousands of dollars on training and think like this. It has led me to cry foul and fraud because I figured that no one can be this dumb .
Wether it was pure incompetence or pure greenwash and insincerity...the fact remains, the divers didn't get converted. Canvassed perhaps, given a certificate even...but not converted.
After we train, MAC can move in and do their thing.
Thats a proposed compromise that could show the way out of the impasse.
Sincerely Steve

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Guys, I've been trying to stay out of this, but it's getting a little out of hand. If you have some facts to bring to the discussion, bring them. If you have some legitimate questions, ask them If you just don't like somebody, use the little PM button. I'm allergic to hip waders.

I reserve the right to interact with participants in this forum who are asking for comments, or who are asking for answers to questions related to THIS SPECIFIC thread. Posts containing condescending remarks or insults will be ignored. There are some of you that have been posting condescending and insulting messages, those people will be ignored.

You will see some examples soon.

Jaime

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Guess you need glasses as well Jamie, my name is in print EVERY time I post, yet you still think its Greshman.

Greshman, You have another customer .

You've lost me, what on earth are you tralking about. Ramblings of a crazy man, sounds like to me.

You have continually failed to answer any questions from people on this thread, other then ones you choose to answer. I used to do that as a kid, seletive listen, BUT I GREW OUT OF THAT.

Tullock got out of this industry because of what it was doing, just to join another industry thats done more ecological damage then our industry ever has. Orchids, yup now theres a industry that started out on a good environmental footing. The original orchid hunters, burned entire forests to eliminate all the orchids growing there, making them extinct, so no other orchid hunter could own one. They even burned down fellow orchid hunters greenhouses and had them murderred in the field in their quest to be the sole owner rare orchids.

Man, yet another hose sucker who thinks he knows it all, I finally see why you don't like to talk about yourself. I also see now why MAC invited you to the MAC workshop. Funny thing is, when I asked about what you've done, you supplied a list of things. One of them, you stated you've imported fish for your business (service guy), well we just learned you were pumping up the list to make yourself look bigger. 2 trial shipments does not make one an importer of fish, but hay, all my friends in the tech field lie on their resumes as well, to look more attactive. What was your role, other then a little water quality speach and paper (you can't call that an article, its like what, 3 paragraphs). What exactly was your role in PI, what did you do?

BTW, recieving money from OFI for your pilot program (which is another way of saying, failed business) PNP means you did get assistance from the industry. Dealing direct with stores and hobbyists drove every wholesaler away from you. dealing with hobbyist, drove the stores away. Why you failed is evident, you had no clue how the industry really works, and stepped on every ones feet. Then you cried foul after they wouldn't support you for stepping on their feet and selling to their customers. How did you expect them to take it? Example, in Chicago, you tried to set-up a way for CMAS to get cheap, direct fish (straight from PI to Chicago) from PNP. Hearing that news, all the local stores and wholesalers instantly wrote you off.

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