LA Cherry Picker Wanted.

[naesco]

Thanks for the clarification, Mary

Jenn

And it didn't include any species that even experts could not keep owing to the fact that no one knew their care requirements and could keep them alive for any length of time like flowerpots and dendros.

The USL was not to protect unsuspecting reefers from unscrupulous vendors that sold fish and corals that had no hope of survival in their tanks.

The USL was not to protect species no matter how common from guaranteed death in aquariums despite the best efforts of even expert hobbyists.

Those who supported the USL felt that species whose care requirements were unknown, should be widely sold so that on a trial and error basis even newbies might find the secret to their care.

Everyone who reads this thread knows without question that thousands of flowerpots are sold and only a few survive.
It is simply immoral to continue the import and sale of them (except for research) until their care requirements are known.
It is for the above reasons that reputable vendors refuse to carry them.

 

[naesco]

Thanks for the clarification, Mary

Jenn

And it didn't include any species that even experts could not keep owing to the fact that no one knew their care requirements and could keep them alive for any length of time like flowerpots and dendros.

The USL was not to protect unsuspecting reefers from unscrupulous vendors that sold fish and corals that had no hope of survival in their tanks.

The USL was not to protect species no matter how common from guaranteed death in aquariums despite the best efforts of even expert hobbyists.

Those who supported the USL felt that species whose care requirements were unknown, should be widely sold so that on a trial and error basis even newbies might find the secret to their care.

Everyone who reads this thread knows without question that thousands of flowerpots are sold and only a few survive.
It is simply immoral to continue the import and sale of them (except for research) until their care requirements are known.
It is for the above reasons that reputable vendors refuse to carry them.

Jenn we have two operating reef tanks and two works in progress. We have an outdoor pond with koi, goldfish and shubunkins and a poodle.

 

[JennM]

Wow finally an answer to ONE question... thanks.

Now what about the one about seeing Mary and Steve's stock lists... ever seen 'em??

You said:

Those who supported the USL felt that species whose care requirements were unknown, should be widely sold so that on a trial and error basis even newbies might find the secret to their care.

Then in the same breath you said:

Everyone who reads this thread knows without question that thousands of flowerpots are sold and only a few survive.
It is simply immoral to continue the import and sale of them (except for research) until their care requirements are known.

Which side of the fence are you on, Wayne?

Everybody should try them or nobody should try them?

BTW - last time I talked with Dana Riddle he was doing research on Dendronepthya, so perhaps the secret to feeding them might be closer than you think.

Also, had some discussion with Dana about Cyclop-eeze and the fact that many are having success with Goniopora while incorporating Cyclop-eeze into their feeding regimen... Dana says there is a chain of fatty acids found in the Cyclops that is also found in the Goniopora... coinkidink? Perhaps-- perhaps not. I had a "surprise" Goni that I kept for over a year, and we use Cyclop-eeze. Sold it to a customer (with "full disclosure") and a can of Cyclop-eeze. Customer has since moved so I honestly don't know if it's still alive today but hey... that's better than the 6-months-then-it-receeds that is par for the course...

Just an FYI...

Jenn

 

[kylen]

Jenn we have two operating reef tanks and two works in progress. We have an outdoor pond with koi, goldfish and shubunkins and a poodle.

Hey Wayne...just out of curiosity...what store(s) do you buy your fish from? No need for names...just a general location in the city will suffice for me.

 

[naesco]

Thanks for your post Jenn.
I 100% support people like Dana Riddle, researchers and experienced hobbyists from finding the secret that allows all of us to keep them. I do not object to special orders being placed to wholesalers by these genuine leaders in our hobby.

I strongly object to vendors who sell flowerpots to unsuspecting hobbyists when they know that there is no chance of survival in their tanks.

 

[Anonymous]

Norm,
I don't get you. You live near an AMDA member, no? MarkSS can buy from Steve any time he chooses. He is also MAC certified, which we are told is even better than netcaught. Instead of supporting a great retail store in your area you seem intent on building a list that is designed to destroy brick and mortars. With the great support of loyal customers like you, what chance does an AMDA or MAC store have? :roll: This is exactly the reason retailers should join AMDA.

You're right Mitch, I do live near Mark. And besides being one of the coolest humans I've ever met, he runs an excellent shop. (Hell, before I found his shop I never considered reefing because what I saw in most LFS's (pure stupidity) turned me away as just a way of killing marine life. Marks shop showed me that life could not only be kept, but made to thrive..) Anyway, what little bit of life I have in my puny system is mostly from his shop. And as for the drygoods, well, if I had known I could get them through him when I did, I'd probably have paid what little bit more I might have, but that was before I knew I could get drygoods from him and was also before some of the current changes he's going through.........

As for my "list" you're right, at first it was just for etailers. But that hasn't been the focus since probably around December. What I'm out to do now is meant to go beyond etail (though etail is IMO, really handy and as I was trying to point out, etail can extend the reach/availability of any B&M.) What I'm doing is building the framework for a database that can encompass all retailers, wholesalers/importers and manufacturers of reef-related products, online OR off.

I do however think that AMDA is probably dooming itself with this anti-etail stance. I mean think about it... How moronical is it to cut yourself off from an incredibly vast consumer base just for the sake of maintaining that "wholesome" face to face that not all consumers can even get to without fairly considerable effort?

A lot of times when I was in Marks shop he had folks coming from all over... - Now hold that thought and keep in mind that these people probably feel about him the same way I do.. We know he runs a great shop, he's therefore at least somewhat trustworthy. - Now consider if he were to open etail.. - Suddenly all those people who came in from all over can now "walk" into his shop each and every day..... - DUH.. Yeah, lets jump on etail as being the "evil empire"... :roll:

And besides that, where does AMDA draw the line with it's members regarding etail anyway? Who decides if it caps its members to only selling under $300 a week by etail or $3000? I think AMDA needs to speak more plainly just who exactly its going after - unless of course, its out to try and remove all reef business from the internet.


And thanks for the judgement call on just how "loyal" I am by the way.. - Trust me, had I known the dogs for who they are, I would NOT have opened my mouth about Marks past situation/possible decision back when I did. - But you can bet the farm that I'm leaving my mouth shut now about what I currently know about him. :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Don't worry Mitch,
This guys going nowhere slow. He mimicked RDO in building his discussion forum where he basically discusses things with himself...since he is about the only contributor. Hes come over here to try and steal away some readers to join him.
This is however an interesting trend. Anyone w/ a computer can now be a marinelife search engine, a marinelife dealer AND a webmaster. All without leaving the house!
The site should be called...
"Cherry Picking,Cheap-ass, Anti-social, Intellectual lightweight, Stab your retailer in the back.com... "
What the trade needs is a big flea dip to get rid of all the parasites who cheapen it, threaten it and ruin its chances for unity and reform...and all with the little bit of knowledge they learned from a click of a mouse.
My but a hint of knowledge is dangerous these days.
Steve

Folks, a reminder to keep it civil and respectful.

I'll try Len... - I'll really, REALLY try.....



Ya know Steve, I bit my tounge and milzed my last reply to you on this (in another thread I think) before anyone should have seen it, but apparently you want to make this an issue... - So fine then, we'll have it your way. :evil:

Let me start though by saying: I'm not in the reef biz! - And you should do a little more homework before you start running off at the mouth too. - My DATABASE is not only for e-tailers... (Theres a huge difference between search engines and databases.. - But, obviously you're a freakin genius, so why am I explaining this to you??)

As far as me mimicking RDO.. - I know, you're probably still doin the 'ol hunt 'n peck on the keyboard so I'll forgive your utter and complete ignorance and try to be a little nicer about all this, but the only way I "mimicked" RDO is that I used the same free software they use (phpBB) - though mines a little more up to date and hack-resisitant with quite a few more features added into it but OH MY GOD, you're RIGHT! ... the topics.. they're about reef stuff! - Get over it, rightfully, no one offered up their user database for me to house my pet project and this discussion board software is the nicest thing (and best priced option) so yeah, its another reef board.. I don't have the background or experience in reefing to replace RDO or RC and I also don't have the funding to put my server out for the level of use that either of those get. (And I'm also not taking advertising to fund it either, but if I do have to do that, I won't be taking advertising from reef vendors, I'll find other sources for it or it will simply shut down when my bandwidth is topped.)

And let me fill ya in a little on this.. I didn't build it to try and draw people away from RDO, but yeah, I am posting in the forums (what you like to think of as me talking to myself) to try and "seed" it a little, give people a place to start from... - You know, being the anti-social cur that I am I could never fathom that people might feel a little self-conscious about being the first to post somewhere...

Bah, whats the point?? - You probably have me pinned dead to rights (at least in your mind) now though dontcha?

Hows this for ya though Steve... - Since you're so hell-bent against the internet, etail and certifications (just to name a few.. - And I'M supposedly anti-social?!?) I'll just do you the favor of making sure that cortezmarine (.com or otherwise) stays right the hell outta my database ok? - You know, wouldn't want you getting all riled up that some business came your way because your operation was found on a "search engine" or any of that monkey-business ya know?? - That sound good to you? - Just let me know and I'll be on it buddy!

Oh, and by the way, if the internet and etail is so evil, why exactly DOES cortezmarine.com exist anyway??


<-sigh->

You are right about one thing, I AM going slow with it... - But at least I can say that I'm teaching myself how to program in php/mysql while trying to speed the lines of communication for the reef business all the way from hobbyist to retailer (LFS or etailer) and retailer to wholesaler/importer/manufacturer. - You, from my perspective, you're probably going to wind up doing nothing more than marching AMDA down the $hit-can all because you're pissed-off that MAC stole AMDA's thunder. How sad is that?

So tell me, how does AMDA draw the line when a brick and mortar wants to go etail to expand their biz?

 

[Kalkbreath]

The way I see it , the problem is not that Steve is looking out for the store fronts........or that Grateful Diver is helping the trade make better use of the World Wide Web . .........nor is the issue that Naesco feels strongly that certain aspects of the trade need mending.................Or that Mary "cant save the reefs" unless she does certain thing to remain "in the business".........THE REAL PROBLEM is that We are all so damn ugly to each ..... that the only people hearing our messages are ourselves..............our tone is so ugly in this forum that even I want to tune out ........Mary your over reacting ........Naesco , OK so maybe Mary is not perfect, in your eyes .......but can you name one wholesaler that is closer to it? Why would you want to slip in a cheap shot on the only wholesaler that even comes close to your expectations?........ Steve , you log on to the Internet each and every day . Why ? because its the most effective tool at expressing ideas and for seeing what the rest of the world thinks ...........You cant fight the Internet if you yourself cant stay off it ....{think about it}.. Grateful Diver , you must have realized that many of the participants here on this board, even though they love the Internet as a way to express them selves personally ......hate the Internet when it comes to how it is changing the market place. Right or wrong...... Dont act surprised that you have been challenged for bringing it here. :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

I'm gonna have to give Kalk a gold star and a smiley face!

 

[FloridaPets]

CORTEZ MARINE

As a group, AMDA needs to be committed to the concept that we should not support those that do not protect their resource. And as customers, we need to impose our will and believe that our will is beneficial to the environment and the establishment of good husbandry practices at the catch sites.

DIZZY

In order for reform to stick their has to be a market for the best handled fish. Raising false hopes can actually be worse than doing nothing at all.

It would seem that you two don't believe there is a market for net caught fish. You seem to believe that just the benefits alone are not reason enough to promote the sale of net caught fish. You believe that you can not generate enough interest or sales to make net caught fish worth your while. It would seem as though you are looking to turn everything upside down in a capitalistic system. You are trying to create a strong market by eliminating competition. Your trying to become BULLIES.
Look, netcaught fish is an excellent endeaver. It is highly comendable, and I for one believe there is a huge market for net caught and properly handled fish. If I were as close to ensuring my sources for fish were all net caught and handled properly as you are, I would be shouting that from every forum around. People will come to you. Remember this saying: "If you build it they will come"? That's how you win the battles, Keep doing what you know is right, and they will follow.
Dizzy had made the quote above that somewhat amazed me. If his quote were true, there probably would not be any aquacultured fish in the industry at all now. Aqua cultured fish is a huge investment of money and time. If the cause is just and right, it doesn't matter who else is doing what, people will pay more for the better product.
I wish you guys would focus more on what YOU want to accomplish, and worry less about what others are doing. You have a lofty and rightous goal, please continue and achieve that goal. You will make plenty of money doing it, and you don't even have to ruffle any feathers along the way. If you guys succed, you will stand alone. I still believe the consumer will buy a better product. If you just keep informing people of the benefits of net caught and properly handled fish, you'll come out smelling like a rose.
BTW, I don't do fish. Everything I sell is either net caught or hand caught inverts.

 

[clarionreef]

Kalk,
Kudos on your performance.
Because some flog fish in the mail via the internet does not give them proprietary rights over the medium!
I live basically in the shop caring for, feeding, packing and unpacking fish 14 hours a day. In between drying off and having lunch I see the computer...and use it...

In the spirit of competition we're just saying its a lousy way for hobbyists to go. Interfacing with a computer rather then a real fish dealer is kinda like internet dating. Geeks...I mean guys. Wouldn't you like a real relationship?
Steve

 

[clarionreef]

Florida,
Thats not a quote of mine.
But I get your drift and I wish it were that simple.
Basically you said...Solve the problems among 2,000 divers and fix all the problems like an aquaculture business would? Then...viola! Case closed.
Million dollar aquaculture concerns invest in their own businesses in the states. They do not invest in aquaculture for the environmental sake of it...or to save coral reefs. Its private stateside business.
ASIAN FISH BIZ IS EVER SO DIFFERENT. But its still business.
The ability to regard the general welfare of all runs counter to the competitive business ethic and thats why there is so little true alturism on trade concerns. Banding together to address common concerns does happen, but it has been delt hammer blows, been backstabbed and been sold down the river.
Frankly, the latest threat-trend to getting it right is the attractiveness of phoney, fraudulent projects that waylay concerned people, dealers and funders and convert it all into private advancement and career.
Many central figures cashed in in that way and for the first time in their lives had some serious play money. We have lost them and the years invested in them and once again have to start over.
Steve

 

[dizzy]

And thanks for the judgement call on just how "loyal" I am by the way.. - Trust me, had I known the dogs for who they are, I would NOT have opened my mouth about Marks past situation/possible decision back when I did. - But you can bet the farm that I'm leaving my mouth shut now about what I currently know about him. :wink:

Norm,
I'll start with your closing wink. I'll inform you that I serve on the BOD of AMDA with Mark and I have met him at MACNA and spoke with him again at Marine Ornamentals. I consider Mark a friend and if I have any questions about Mark's future plans I'll ask him directly. BTW I think IMAC will be revealing as to what your hinting at.

Your "dogs" comment was uncalled for. You got snooty in the post I was replying too. Retailers have the right to protect their business and we don't care if you like it or not. Your site will not be helpful to brick and mortar stores. The problems in the future will be more about obtaining livestock and not about generating customers. This attitude that everyone should sell as much as they can get, to anyone they can, will destroy this hobby. People have got to realize that the harvesting of marine wildlife needs to be slowed, not expedited.

Norm my problem is that I look into the future and envision where this internet path will lead us. Your site may be well intended, but it is but a step in the journey. Soon someone will have a site titled www.cheapestfishguaranteed.com It will list all the marine etailers in the country. It will automatically compare prices and list availability. You can type in a fish and it will tell you where you can buy it the cheapest. You will be able to key in a whole shopping list and it will come back with a recommendation as to who has it the cheapest, including freight and box charges. This is what the hobbyist wants and this is what we will get. Inland retailers who have to pay freight to get stuff shipped to them will not be able to play this game. It will be entirely based out of LA or where ever the cheapest landed costs are. When it is all said and done you can pride yourself in your role in destroying the brick and mortar retailers. :evil:

 

[clarionreef]

MITCH,
YOU JUST GAVE HIM AND 20 OTHER [gentlemen] AN IDEA!
STEVE
PS. none of these guys imagine there to be problems beyond making a sale...without really committing to and investing in the business as storefronts do. The resource limits and questions are beyond them to contemplate. They are kinda lucky in a way to be so ignorant.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

It's amazing to see the level of contempt for people, that comes out of this forum. The above post with its name calling is a perfect example.

 

[clarionreef]

Croak,
This is an industry forum and there are serious threats to peoples livlihoods and life investments here. Perhaps the issue has no stake for you but it sure does for others.
Sincerely Steve,
PS. Its very easy to stay civil and polite when ones cares for nothing being said and done. Simple in fact. Follow me to an irrelevant thread on turtle nutrition and I'll show you.

 

[dizzy]

DIZZY

In order for reform to stick their has to be a market for the best handled fish. Raising false hopes can actually be worse than doing nothing at all.

Well FloridaPets you amaze quite easily. If you had spent your hard earned money and gone to Marine Ornamentals 04, you would have gotten to hear those concerns expressed directly by the representatives of the exporting countries. (Indo and PI) These people have heard a lot of empty promises before from the various NGOs. They say they can change. They want to know if we can change the way we buy. I find it interesting how you lifted that from ReefCentral and twisted it to apply it to aquaculture. If there is anyone who is owed a debt of gratitude for advancing aquaculture it is Bill Adison of CQuest. Bill did use his own fortune to advance the breeding of marine fish. Many of the others use grant money. They pay themselves well for their efforts. It is the thought of possible financial gain, and not a right or just cause that is the true motivation for most aquaculture efforts. I don't see these operations trying to put themselves up on a pedestal, and I see no need for you to do so either. If aquaculture is to be successful it has to be a better product. i.e., no Brooklynella in tr clown fish. It would be nice if people did stuff because it was the right thing to do, but then I guess we would all be dead and in Heaven. Florida Pets comments follow this instead of being before mine. Sorry about that.
Mitch

Florida Pet[/quote] It would seem that you two don't believe there is a market for net caught fish. You seem to believe that just the benefits alone are not reason enough to promote the sale of net caught fish. .
Dizzy had made the quote above that somewhat amazed me. If his quote were true, there probably would not be any aquacultured fish in the industry at all now. Aqua cultured fish is a huge investment of money and time. If the cause is just and right, it doesn't matter who else is doing what, people will pay more for the better product. [/quote]

 

[Anonymous]

Right now all I want is for naesco to take his poodle OUT of the pond! Poor dog (even though I don't care for poodles).

 

[Anonymous]

Steve.....

:?

http://reefcentral.com/forums/poll.php? ... ollid=1903

Just go for it "King"... - March AMDA down the path of ignoring the largest market share out there. - What a way to lead a "professional" organization.. :roll:

And I'll take your continued rants as confirmation that you don't wish to be listed in the database. - While you're at it, why don't you just make it an official stance of AMDA that all members should request to not be listed as well? Go ahead, trust me, it won't hurt my WHINY feelings at all!

And while you're out there marching and singing (like "The King" from Seinfeld) about the evils of the internet, why don't you stop and look behind to see who's following..?

I noticed you didn't answer on why it is you have a website too.... Good move!

And you wanna see geek?? - Fine, here ya go... STFU n00b! - now go figure it out. (Oh, that's right, you only have apathy for my profession..)

-------

Mitch, trust me, I'm well aware of the fact that you know and speak with Mark. - Remember not so long ago when I stupidly spouted off about him and his plans regarding MAC and you and Steve ran with it to go nipping at him for daring such a thing? - Thats where the dogs reference comes from. - Oh, but wait, that's right, I'm the disloyal customer / back stabber, right I forgot about that....

Don't get me wrong, I sympathize with your plight in having to fend off some seriously strong competition in your livelihood. But do you really think for one minute that any amount of whining/pouting/spouting off about the evils of the net is going to make even one teensy bit of difference in curbing it?? NO, it's not.... Its going to be the epitaph on the gravestones of the businesses that didn't get with the times, that's what it will be.

The smart brick and mortar will see the net as an opportunity to expand their available hours and possibly extend their market reach. Customers who have come far and wide to meet face to face no longer have to buy from eFisharama because they're not able to coordinate the logistics of getting to your storefront during your working hours or impigning on you to alter them for their sole benefit.

And regardless wether I have a part in cheapestfishonline.com or not is not an issue. - If it's meant to be it will. - But no, I will never build something like that, I want bricks and mortars too.

 

[clarionreef]

There is enough for every mans need...
but never enough for every mans greed.
Thanks for the role in multiplying demand beyond supply.
steve