What would happen....

[Kalkbreath]

You never answered my question.........What can you collect a 100 pound grouper or a one-eighth of an ounce gobie .... And it fits in the palm of your hand?wink:

Kalk,

Fishermen do not make the selection of gear based on the probability of collecting an animal that no longer exists.

J

The statement shows the reader the reason cyanide has been use as the main tool for collection of food fish for forty years......It has a range of collection that far exceeds rod and reel or nets...........Ps the reefs of PI were considered 75% degraded by fishing and run of BEFORE the ornamental collection industry even began to operate full steam.............And the reason there are no more 100pound grouper .in PI ?.......{.Squirt squirt}

 

[Kalkbreath]

you really think three inch six line groupers or 4 inch miniatus groupers chase down sardines in open water......? Tiny grouper eat tiny fish from the security of the reef structure......They are not quick enough swimmers to escape predators .......what were the average size of the fish studied ?

 

[mkirda]

]You never see the groupers pick off fish as the fish get distracted by the divers......like during hand feedings ?

Kalk,

You are not paying attention. The study showed not one reef fish in evidence during gut studies.

In order to believe you, we'd have to then believe that the groupers collected for the study practiced the equivalent of a Vegan diet. That the collectors knew which of these fish were Vegans, and made the conscious effort to only collect them, all so that he can validate your theory...

Yup. That all makes sense. :wink:

On second thought, Occam's Razor probably makes this less likely...

Let me say that I'm also sure that groupers *do* take the odd reef-fish here and there, but from the study, it appears that their preferential prey is *NOT* MO reef fish.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

.And the reason there are no more 100pound grouper .in PI ?.......{.Squirt squirt}

More like {net}{net}, {hook and line}{Hook and Line}, {Ka-boom}{Ka-boom}, {spear}{spear}, {lack of condoms}{lack of condoms}, {over-fishing}{over-fishing}, {siltation and reef degradation}{silatation and reef degradation}, {muroami}{muroami}

You really should be more up on this stuff, Kalk.
This is ground we have covered before, probably multiple times.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

you really think three inch six line groupers or 4 inch miniatus groupers chase down sardines in open water......? Tiny grouper eat tiny fish from the security of the reef structure......They are not quick enough swimmers to escape predators .......

Do you really think that pelagic larvae and tiny fish don't encounter the reef structure? If they are in a current, and the current encounters a reef, guess what is waiting? Lots and lots of gaping mouths, from corals to piscivores like grouper.

what were the average size of the fish studied ?

Why not pull the study and read it for yourself?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[John_Brandt]

FishBase

http://www.fishbase.org/TrophicEco/...ode=5055&genus=Plectropomus&species=leopardus

Food Items Reported for Plectropomus leopardus


Food I Food II Food III Food name Country Pred. Stage

nekton cephalopods squids/cuttlefish unidentified (not available) adults
nekton finfish bony fish Spratelloides delicatulus (not available) adults
nekton finfish bony fish Hemigymnus melapterus (not available) adults
nekton finfish bony fish Halichoeres sp. (not available) adults
nekton finfish bony fish Gomphosus varius Fr Polynesia adults
nekton finfish bony fish Anampses sp. (not available) adults
nekton finfish bony fish Thalassoma sp. (not available) adults
nekton finfish bony fish anchovies Australia adults
nekton finfish bony fish Scolopsis bilineatus (not available) adults
nekton finfish bony fish herrings Australia adults
nekton finfish bony fish Pterocaesio chrysozona (not available) adults
nekton finfish bony fish Salarias fasciatus (not available) adults
nekton finfish bony fish Atherinomorus capricornensis (not available) adults
nekton finfish bony fish Siganus doliatus (not available) adults
nekton finfish bony fish Acanthurus gahhm Fr Polynesia adults
nekton finfish bony fish unidentified (not available) adults
nekton finfish bony fish Pomacentrus tripunctatus (not available) adults
nekton finfish bony fish Synodus variegatus (not available) adults
nekton finfish bony fish Saurida gracilis (not available) adults
nekton finfish bony fish Siganus sutor (not available) adults
nekton finfish bony fish Scarus rivulatus (not available) adults
nekton finfish bony fish Stethojulis strigiventer (not available) adults
nekton finfish bony fish Scarus frenatus (not available) adults
nekton finfish bony fish Pomacentrus pavo (not available) adults
nekton finfish bony fish Pomacentrus moluccensis (not available) adults
nekton finfish bony fish Chromis ternatensis (not available) adults
nekton finfish bony fish Abudefduf saxatilis (not available) adults
nekton finfish bony fish Parapriacanthus sp. (not available) adults
nekton finfish bony fish Parapercis cylindrica (not available) adults
nekton finfish bony fish Scarus ghobban (not available) adults
plants phytoplankton n.a./other phytoplankton unidentified (not available) juv./adults
zoobenthos benth. crust. shrimps/prawns Palaemonidae (not available) adults

 

[John_Brandt]

Cephalopholis miniata


Feeds on fishes (80%, mainly Pseudanthias squamipinnis) and crustaceans.

http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.cfm?id=6450

 

[Kalkbreath]

Thank you John.......... :lol:

 

[Kalkbreath]

.And the reason there are no more 100pound grouper .in PI ?.......{.Squirt squirt}

More like {net}{net}, {hook and line}{Hook and Line}, {Ka-boom}{Ka-boom}, {spear}{spear}, {lack of condoms}{lack of condoms}, {over-fishing}{over-fishing}, {siltation and reef degradation}{silatation and reef degradation}, {muroami}{muroami}

You really should be more up on this stuff, Kalk.
This is ground we have covered before, probably multiple times.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

I guess you blacked out when seeing the countless photos of cyanide fishermen squirting into the mouths of huge groupers and wrasses?

 

[John_Brandt]

Groupers at the Manila seafood market.

Photo by John Brandt

 

[blue hula3]

Kalk/John

The reason I didn't use the Fishbase diet info for P. leopardus is that it doesn't indicate what proportion of the diet each species comprises. One damsel in a gut and it will show up on the list. The list also does not indicate separate studies rather it indicates all the species any of which were found in one or more studies - but with no info on how common.

In terms of C. miniata, 80% were fish but it doesn't again indicate what proportion were Pseudanthias (which is a schooling fish). I'll see if I can run down the paper as I am also unclear whether the "observations" means they did gut contents or just observed in the field what they ate. If the latter, it is likely a snapshot of the range of species consumed.

I've contacted the researcher who did the diet work on the GBR to get a confirmation on what she told me over the phone (all pelagics; no site attached species targeted for aquarium trade). I'll pass on the info when it arrives.

If the photo was meant to indicate the presence of grouper in the Philippines - I haven't said they don't exist ... they are just rare as hens teeth to the point that I have trouble imagining that they consume so many ornamentals as to make the hobby irrelevant.

100 lb groupers - those I think are just about gone and I don't reckon the ones in the picture were anything close to that ;-)

Cheers,

 

[mkirda]

I guess you blacked out when seeing the countless photos of cyanide fishermen squirting into the mouths of huge groupers and wrasses?

Nice try at redirection, Kalk. Yet more smoke.
You state the only reason why 100 lb. groupers no longer exist is due to cyanide, I point out a selection of other pressures on the reef fishery that contribute directly and indirectly to habitat destruction, then you have the audacity to post more irrelevant smoke. Why? You started this thread, but you seem not to have the desire to get to the truth of the matter. Why bother then?

Do you even know when cyanide fishing started?
Why not enlighten us as to when and where?
Then subtract the current year from the date it started, then explain how you got 40, please.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

Groupers at the Manila seafood market.

Photo by John Brandt

I had one... Tasty as heck.

Did you see any grouper that approached 100 lbs., John?
I saw plenty of the 3 pounders. Even a few 6 pounders. Never saw one that approached anything like 20 lbs, let alone 100...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[John_Brandt]

First I want to say that my involvement in this thread is not because of any support of Kalk's ultimate position (redirect all ornamental net-reform efforts towards food fishery reform).

This study that suggests that groupers primarily feed on pelagic fish came as a big surprise to me. Something interesting must be going on for this to happen. Many of the 'reef groupers' never really seem to leave the coral reef proper. Many pelagics never really seem to enter the reef proper. We do know that there are some pelagics that frequent reefs (day and night) and that some reefs are directly adjacent to open ocean situations. The groupers in the study are obviously getting access to these pelagics. Since we know that many of these 'reef groupers' are territorial and don't go off into the open ocean to feed, it makes sense that the pelagics are taken when they enter (or approach) the reef.

There may be important regional differences in what groupers take, based on historical and availability issues. Reef groupers that have ready access to suitable pelagics may well specialize in eating them. But we know that there are many groupers that really don't leave the reef itself to go hunting.

Interestingly, the FishBase list of P. leopardus prey has just 2 designated citations from Australia. Both of these are 'pelagic' fish (anchovies and herring). The bulk of the rest of the list are fish that are certainly found on the reef proper. Groupers are highly opportunistic feeders and divers regularly observe them feeding on reef fish. I have seen them eat damsels and cardinals. It is well documented that in the Red Sea C. miniata feeds almost exclusively on P. squammipinnis.

The inclusion of the photo wasn't to make any particular point. I happened to have shots of groupers at the Manila market (P. leopardus is shown) and thought it would be an interesting addition to the thread. I saw no 100 pound groupers at the market nor would I expect to. There are only a few species of grouper (3 or 4, all Epinephelus spp.?) that reach this size in the Philippines, and these should be expected to be very uncommon. I'm gonna guess that over 90% of the grouper species worldwide do not have adult sizes of 100 pounds. Kalk chose this number for its dramatic argumentative effect (doesn't he always do this?), but it really isn't a good discussion point because it is so exaggerated. Groupers at or exceeding 100 pounds probably never were very common in the Philippines.

I too ate grouper (lapu-lapu) in the Philippines. It's excellent and I very much prefer the flavor to Florida grouper.

 

[Kalkbreath]

First I want to say that my involvement in this thread is not because of any support of Kalk's ultimate position (redirect all ornamental net-reform efforts towards food fishery reform).

.

Once again, I have never suggested that we end net-reform efforts....{Net caught is a better product, but will have no noticeable effects out on the reefs} Attempts to deflect and down play the truths I do suggest is becoming all to common place both on this board and with in the reeform effort .....whether it is focusing on the elusive 100 pound grouper {in which a reference was used as a product indorsement like add , touting the wide range of use a cyanide bottle brings its user} instead of realizing that the reasons it has been so popular over the last five decades is because of its versatility.......? Why is the obvious truth so scary? Second,Egnoring the huge strain food fishing has on both our hobby and the reefs is a sure way to fail at bringing about any"noticable" changes out on the reefs.........like pissing in a hurricane ......the woods will still be wet even if one no longer relieves himself......Its only when the storm subsides...that thing will dry out....Most of the current reef decline happened before our hobby even began.......

In the late 1970s, the most extensive survey of coral reefs conducted in the Philippines showed widespread human impact on the reefs. The Inventory of the Coral Resources of the Philippines (ICRP) found only about 5 percent of reefs to be in excellent condition, with over 75 percent coral cover (both hard and soft).[11] endQuote].And has only degradd slightyly since......The vast amount of local fish consumption in PI ,Is by far the leading activity and killer of the live coral.One million tons of food fish collection ....................two-thirds of that is dead fish collection,which involves extremely high levels of cyanide ..... The majority of local food fish are collected within the coral reefs themselves {Municipal waters}

"Most of the productive shelf (within the 200-m isobath) areas are found in municipal waters, with approximately 75 percent of the coastal shelf area in the 0-100 m depth range, where coral reefs, mangroves and fish stocks abound. The municipal waters are the richest fishing grounds{.End] Twenty years ago .....Peter and Steve under oath, testified that cyanide fishing was used exclusively...in the collection of FOOD FISH ......Today even the local government states that fifty percent of food fish collected last year tested for cyanide present! http://www.pcsd.ph/Study%20and%20findin ... ......This combined with blast fishing collections,this leaves very little of the total left to the ecofriendly hook and line !......ten percent? Our little hobby exports 3 million fish of which 25 percent tested for cyanide.....thats less then one million fish .....compared to one million tons of food fish collected with cyanide or blast fishing by the local people...

.Of the three sectors, municipal fisheries shows a declining trend of fish production from 1992 to the present. This can be attributed to the fact that coastal and inland fishing areas are utilized under an open access system which has resulted in overfishing and environmental degradation. Nevertheless, municipal fisheries contributed 891 000 t (32 percent) to total fish production, [end} ........Are we going to alow the next twenty years to pass again without any change........People like Peter and Steve tried very hard back in the 1980s........But came up empty........I suggest a new approach , using the truth ..........the whole truth and nothing but the truth! :wink:
.
.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Well maybe the truth plus something......!

 

[PeterIMA]

Kalk, Not all marine fish captured in the food fishery are caught using cyanide. Your extrapolations are widely innaccurate. However, I concede that your ideas have some merit. I have the IMA data concerning cyanide levels in various species. A number of species of groupers are highly targeted by cyanide fishermen (see my paper in the book from the Marine Ornamentals Conference Iowa State Press). It is of interest that Plectropomus leopardus does not have as high levels, but is very important in the live food fish fishery (IMA tested over 3000 specimens, which reflects their relative abundance in export facilities in comparison to other grouper species where fewer specimens were sampled and tested). The level for P. leopardus with cyanide present was about 29% (if my memory is correct). Several other species of grouper were as high as 88% cyanide present determined by the IMA/BFAR CDT laboratories (prior to 2001). Plectropomus leopardus apparently is relatively short lived (6-7 years) which probably accounts for their abundance despite high fishing pressure. Sam Mamaung and Dr. Terry Donaldson of the IMA published a paper on this in the Proceedings of the International Coral Reef Symposium held in Bali in 2000.

It is also true to state that some other species (such as fusiliers) that are not exported alive (eaten in the Philippines) appear to be targeted with cyanide. Some of these species are pelagic. It would be of interest to learn what techniques are used to blitz them with cyanide.

I never made some of the statements that you attribute to Steve and myself (I did not swear that the bulk of the blame for the cyanide problem lies with the food fishery). Without an in depth analyses of CDT levels in relation to total landings by species, I cannot state that the majority of food fishes were caught with cyanide or what proportion of the total biomass landed might have been caught using cyanide. You seem very eager to blame the food fishery for the bulk of the cyanide problem, without data to substantiate your assertions.

Just remember that the cyanide problem started with the aquarium fish trade, with Filipinos and Americans who placed profits ahead of the environment. Some of them should be in jail.

 

[PeterIMA]

Kalk, Please clarify what document(s) you are using for your quotes concerning the food fish trade. I used the link provided for the Palawan Council for Sustainable Development (PCSD). The information that I read is informative but not so wide ranging as your posting. I found the listing of recent CDT results from the CDT laboratory in Puerto Princesa of interest (out of 121 fish tested from August 16 to September 2003 59 fish (49%) were found to be positive. I did not see any explanation as to what types of fishes were tested. I assume based on past history and recent controversy with the live fish exporters that they were food fish.

I also found the results of a recent survey of the status of coral reefs at various municipalities around the Province of Palawan of interest. The findings were that only 8 out of 237 sites surveysed (3.37%) were in Excellent Condition, 30.8% were in Good condition, and 65.82% were in Fair to Poor condition. The results were compared with an earlier set of surveys conducted nationwide by the University of the Philippines (UPMSI) done by Dr. Edgardo Gomez (5% Excellent, 25% Good, and 70% Fair to Poor). I believe that the UPMSI surveys quoted were based on a nationwide survey at the early 1990s. An earlier survey was published in 1981 at part of the 2nd International Coral Reefs Survey.

Also of interest to the debates with Blue Hula is a table giving the reef health broken down by Municipalities around the the Province of Palawan (ranged from 0 to 16.67%). The healthiest reefs were on the Island of Coron (16.67%) and the municipality of Quezon (11.76%).

In addition, I direct your interest at the Reef Fish density table by municipalities. The average number of individual fishes documented per hectare ranged from 1,732 (Brook's Point) to 40,000 (Tubbatahaa-a marine preserve in the middle of the Sulu Sea). The number of groupers enumerated per hectare ranged from 18 (Bataraza) to 622 (San Vincente). Groupers were generally higher in density (no./ha) in San Vincente, Dumaran, Busuanga, Booke's Point, Magsaysay, and Arcelli (however the WWF study showed that the fish being caught and traded in the livefish industry were young and sexually immature to maturing individuals).

Out of 179 sites surveyed to assess the status of seagrass beds, only 3.91% were deemed Excellent, 16.2% Good, 36.31% Fair, and 43.58% Poor.

It is encouraging to see these results and to learn more about the activities of local municipalities coordinating management and conservation efforts through the Palawan Council for Sustainable Development (PCSD).

http://www.pcsd.ph

 

[PeterIMA]

Congratulations to Jessica Meeuwig (Blue Hula) for publication of the following paper.

Buam, J.K., J.J. Meeuwig, and A.C.J. Vincent. 2003. Bycatch of lined seahorses (Hippocampus erectus) in a Gulf of Mexico shrimp trawl fishery. Fishery Bulletin 101 (4): 721-731.

I am situated in St. Petersburg, Florida not far from the study site at Hernando Beach, Florida. Jessica did the study with collaborators in 1998. Then, she worked with Project Seahorse in the Philippines. Presently, she is working in western Australia.

Peter Rubec

 

[blue hula3]

Kalk,

The truth is that food fishing is a problem.

The truth is that aquarium collection in the Philippines is also a problem.

In addition to the use of cyanide (any of which incremental use is a problem), there is the question of BIODIVERSITY impacts.

Steve raised the point in passing but it is a key one. The aquarium trade has the potential to effect community structure and diversity on the reef because it targets a whole heap of species, many of which wouldn't be fished normally (except by blast fishing). For most of the fish targeted, we know almost nothing apart from the name, family and approximate size. We have no information on size at maturity, reproduction, recruitment, growth, mortality etc.

For example, we don't know what level of exploitation is sustainable for butterflies. Given they aren't targeted for live fish export, I'd argue that, where aquarium collection occurs, this is the main extractive pressure on them and therefore hobby collecting should be the focus of our attention. And this would apply to numerous other species including many of the small damsels ....

What the hobby does matters Kalk. No amount of finger pointing elsewhere changes that.

Blue hula