What would happen....

[mkirda]

"Thank you Mr.Rubic the defense has no further questions"

And if the lawyer shows this level of understanding of physics and fluid dymanics, heaven help us all.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

You mean like the 5o,000 to one ratio? Okey but they harm 50,000 for every one one of ours.......

 

[mkirda]

You mean like the 5o,000 to one ratio?

No, the absolutely flawed understanding of how concentrations move in a fluid like air or water. Or the mischaracterization of the concentration of cyanide coming out of the bottle in squirt form.

I've said before that I take your statistics about as seriously as I do a promise to disarm from Kim Il Jung.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

Im using Peters numbers......And since you cant counter any of the math or science....Im not sure what you base your beliefs in........because its neither of those.....

 

[Kalkbreath]

"Thank you Mr.Rubic the defense has no further questions"

And if the lawyer shows this level of understanding of physics and fluid dymanics, heaven help us all.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

What part of dilution are you having trouble with?.....do you not realize that just like when you pee in a swimming pool........it begins to dilute instantly .......one drop into a washing machine full of water is about 1ppm......but only after that drop has mixed with 100 percent of the water in the tub........there is a point at which the drop has only mixed with the first upper 1/3 portion of the tub of water......at that point the ppm is 3ppm.....and so on and so on .....its really quite simple......

 

[kylen]

So simple in fact that when the "drop" has only mixed with the top 1/3 portion of the washing machine the ppm is still 1 ppm. Don't forget, you're analagy is dealing with a finite amount of liquid. Oh ya, where did you take your measurement, top, middle, or bottom? Did you only take one sample? Overall it is still 1ppm.

 

[mkirda]

Im using Peters numbers......And since you cant counter any of the math or science....Im not sure what you base your beliefs in........because its neither of those.....

Sure, Kalk. I believe your numbers. All I have to assume is that you squirt the coral inside a box in the ocean, then assume perfect and uniform mixing.

Too bad there is no box. Too bad there is no perfect and uniform mixing. Too bad there is no enclosed water.

Hell, you may as well argue that there are 29 bazillion gallons of water in the ocean, that dumping 20 tons of cyanide still only amounts to 1 billionth of a part per million, well below harmful levels. Yeah, that's the ticket! :roll:

I surprised you can't imagine a single instance of fluid dynamics.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[PeterIMA]

Kalk,

I disagree with your assertion that it is only the food fish that are exposed to concentrations in excess of 2000 ppm. Some months ago, I explained that one cyande tablet weighs 20 grams (equivalent to 20,000 mg) of sodium cyanide. So, if one cyanide tablet is dissolved in seawater in a one liter squirt bottle, there would be a concentration of about 11,000 ppm cyanide ion (since about 52% of the tablet by weight is cyanide and the rest is sodium). I also explained that the aquarium fish collectors generally use 1-2 cyanide tablets and the food fishermen 3-5 tablets at a time in a squirt bottle. Lets say that on average, the aquarium fish collector uses 1 tablet and the food fisherman uses 4 tablets. The concentration from one tablet for the aquarium fish collector is 11,000 ppm, the concentration in the squirt bottle of the food fish collector becomes 44,000 ppm. Actually, in my Net-Caught Cyanide Free paper, I suggested that not all of the cyanide is dissolved. Dissolved cyanide ion (forms hydrocyanic acid HCN in seawater) and undissolved cyanide leave the squirt bottle (the undissolved cyanide particles give the plume a milky appearance). The tablets dissolve over time making it difficult to accurately determine the concentration coming out of the squirt bottle. I conservatively estimated the concentration coming out of the bottle to be in excess of 2,000 ppm in both cases. The concentrations of cyanide being used by both aquarium fish collectors and cyanide fishermen (the latter capturing food fish) are far in excess of what might cause the fish to be stunned but not killed by the cyanide. While 2 ppm of cyanide ion may stun but not kill fish (based on lab studies), it is not the concentration being applied to the corals by the aquarium fish collectors.

Peter Rubec

 

[PeterIMA]

Kalk, Lets assume that the collectors don't understand plume dynamics, but from experience they squirt cyanide not at the fish but near the coral head in a way that some of the fish can flee from the cyanide plume because they are near its edge where the concentration is lower than 2000 ppm. Those that survive are sent to Manila and exported. These are also the ones that are also tested by CDT. They die later (chronic mortality) rather than from acute mortality on the reef.

Getting back to that plume however. As you stated in your tub analogy, the plume continues to expand and dilute. Each squirt to catch a few aquarium fish leads to a large mortality of other fishes on the reef over a larger area. Cyanide plumes on the reef devastate the corals (proven by Cervino paper). It is a much larger area than the area where the plume was initially directed. Cyanide kills. There is no way to justify its use.

 

[PeterIMA]

Kalk, I agree with Mike Kirda that your estimates concerning cyanide dispersion (distance and time for dispersion) in seawater are totally wrong. Cyanide in water does not disperse as fast or as far as you stated in your posting. Hydrocyanic acid gas might disperse this far in the atmosphere (air).

Peter

 

[mkirda]

Getting back to that plume however.

I'm not sure there is a plume, Peter.
To hear Kalk's explanation, the laws of physics that we know don't seem to apply in Georgia. Or around cyanide collectors. This is the only explanation that makes sense, if we are to believe him at all.

It almost sounds like an X-Files episode, only with less thought out "science" and bad dialogue.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[PeterIMA]

Mike, I believe there is a cyanide plume. It probably remains quite concentrated in water with no current. Under that condition its dispersion is quite localized (one or two meters) and slow. However, with currents, and swimming actions by the divers the cyanide may be dispersed and the plume destroyed quite rapidly. Scientific study of cyanide plumes is needed.

My interpretation is based on my knowledge of odor dispersion in water based on the fact that I studied catfish behavior in relation to odor (pheromone) plumes in an experimental tank at Texas A&M University for my Ph.D. There is a good paper on odor plumes in water published by E.O. Wilson about 30 years ago.

 

[mkirda]

Mike, I believe there is a cyanide plume.

It was a joke, Peter. Of course there is a plume.

Since he seems so far removed from reality, I'll offer an example.

Kalk, go dump a glass of milk into the middle of a slowly-flowing river.
Observe.

Now come back and tell the group what happens to the milk.

Does it:

a) Form a small cloud that slowly gets bigger, forming streams and ribbons as it moves downstream and gets mixed?
b) Instantly disperse to all points of the river, even upstream and disappear due to the cloud reaching such low concentrations as to no longer be visible?
c) ???

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[PeterIMA]

Mike, Sorry I took you too seriously. I think we agree. The glass of milk analogy is a good one. In fact, when IMA divers were asked to demonstrate the cyanide plume for film makers they used milk in the squirt bottle. It does a good job of mimicking the cyanide plume. James Cervino has photos of real cyanide plumes taken in the Philippines created by cyanide fishermen. They look about the same as the milk plume.

 

[Anonymous]

But I'm sure that at any point of the milk plume it would tatse more like lake water than milk.

 

[Anonymous]

and it's good for your bones to boot!!

 

[Kalkbreath]

What shape the plume takes is hardly the point........yes some areas might be 253ppm for six tenths of a second others 1263ppm for two tenths of a second.........so its not uniform........so what!........Peter hobby collectors dont kill the fish they sell .........how can you continue to say that they do.......How did you test alive fish that tested for cyanide? do you really think a blue face collector is going to kill the fish by over stunning it? .........You cant collect tiny fish with concentrations any where near what the grouper fishermen use.........not if you want them alive long enough to sell .............. hobby collectors dont blast the reef kill 90% of the fish and scoop up the six fish that remaining alive.........The fact that your arguing the plume is quite odd ......................... it means that , one... you have never had someone fart next to you outside in the open ............Two........ you believe tear gass only works if it hits the kidnaper on the head.............Three........that in a swift current ...trout cannot smell the fishermen if he fishes up stream...........?and lastly if that milk also contained nuclear waste that the fish in the river would not become ill down stream?

 

[kylen]

Wow...how do you reply to that? Kalk...I think the saying goes "It's best not to say anything and let them think you are a fool than to open your mouth and prove it".

 

[mkirda]

Peter hobby collectors dont kill the fish they sell .........how can you continue to say that they do.......
do you really think a blue face collector is going to kill the fish by over stunning it?

Kalkbreath,

Yes, that is the lie that you believe, that collectors never overdose the fish that they collect and kill them outright. Despite whatever you may have heard, it is, in fact, absolutely true. They do overdose the fish and kill some outright. Many die during the holding times, and during shipping, before they arrive to the export facility. Deny these facts all you want, but they still remain facts, and therefore TRUE.

And, Kalk, Blueface angels are one of the species that are more affected by cyanide according to the collectors. They die outright from cyanide exposure ALL THE TIME. I did not hear this from Peter, but from the collectors themselves. I curious where you heard the opposite from now...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[JennM]

Wow...how do you reply to that? Kalk...I think the saying goes "It's best not to say anything and let them think you are a fool than to open your mouth and prove it".

I think it goes like this:

It is better to remain silent and to be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.

Note to self: Don't stand downwind from Kalk if he's had the refried beans :roll:

Jeff - crack open a copy of Fenner's Conscientious Marine Aquarist and take a look at the chapter on Cyanide.... there's a nifty photo of a pile of dead fish left after the squirt bottle. You can be that the coral and inverts under them were dead too.

Jenn