What would happen....

[mkirda]

Mike,
Could you translate for me...What is Kalks question that all are afraid...yes I believe 'afraid' was the term he used...to answer.

Steve,

Frankly, it wasn't clear to me either...

I think it had to do with your statements about how some fish are never collected with cyanide. As in, How come if some fish are not collected with cyanide, those same species are testing postitive?
Either that, or saying that you are afraid to tell the world how only tangs and angels are caught with cyanide, not any other fish at all.

Basically, Kalk is saying that the CDT is for doo-doo, thereby handing the cartel a 'Get Out of Jail Free' Card. His reasoning: Just look at your statements, then the CDT results and compare.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

Kalk,
I've not been a big fan of the CDT as practiced in previous years....I have always known that the worth of the notion was in the physical implementation of the notion. I never thought that after all those years it was ever utilized or scored properly enough to give it much credibility.
And thats because it was never used to put anyone in jail except poor fisherman. No exporter ever got touched...or very upset about it.
This is because they have been "untouchable."
Now in theory?Who wouldn't favor of an honestly administered CDT that was actually used to enforce the law? fairly and across the board.
Who couldn't be a fan of it in theory?
Like many things in reefs.org people speak theory as if it were the same thing as policy or reality. It is not. The CDT should reflect truth and actual practice. No one in the Philippines uses cyanide to catch mandarins...the entire trade over there already knows this. Every collector and exporter knows this... I know this.
"Results may have varied?"
Many fish are however collected with cyanide besides 20 species of angels and tangs. Triggers, alge blennies, groupers, lions and butterflies are often tagged as are blue ribbon eels and a number of damsels...depending on the locality.
We need a good CDT test people say. I look beyond and say how do you make sure "evidence" doesn't get switched or disappear?
I'm impressed with science in the hands of honest and competent scientists. If this human problem can be adressed and solved...great.
Steve

 

[mkirda]

The CDT should reflect truth and actual practice. No one in the Philippines uses cyanide to catch mandarins...the entire trade over there already knows this. Every collector and exporter knows this... I know this.
"Results may have varied?"

Steve,

Realize that Kalkbreath uses the above statement to invalidate the entire test...

So how do you account for mandarins that test positive?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

Im not accusing you of being part of the nonsense Steve......I am accusing you of not actively correcting the nonsense.......Although you do jump in at times......but usually with only one foot.......:wink:

 

[clarionreef]

Mike,
As I am not an economic determinist on the question...I cannot cut my conscience to fit a fashionable, convenient conclusion.
Mandarins are speared. They are always speared in the fin to pull them out of the coral interstices and spaces because cyanide does so poorly against them.
This is an old fact.
If something later says the CDT shows otherwise, and this is respected over the reality of the situation...what else is new?
If there are false readings or faulty procedures...that is not of my doing or the cornerstone of my call for reform in collecting practices.
Mandarins are speared in the field. If they are then cyanided in the lab...its thru the looking glass and in a wonderland I have no part of.
I relize that telling the truth wins few friends in this issue, but I am dedicated to it and have divorced myself from the consequences.
Steve

 

[Kalkbreath]

I am also not saying the tests were not preformed correctly CDT I have now way of knowing........I believe that there may have been some second hand cyanide......Due to the abundance of cyanide in food fish collection........This combined with the fact that many of the collectors collect BOTH seafood fish and hobby fish during the same outings.......make for a very tangled net indeed.......demanding that ,if and when testing returns the results must be 100% clean ......is a little unrealistic..........my question was, "what if tests conclude that 3%percent of ALL fish in PI at any given moment have cyanide present? And even the clean collectors are unknowingly collecting a few dirty fish ?

 

[mkirda]

demanding that ,if and when testing returns the results must be 100% clean ......is a little unrealistic..........

Who is making this demand, Kalkbreath?

my question was, "what if tests conclude that 3%percent of ALL fish in PI at any given moment have cyanide present? And even the clean collectors are unknowingly collecting a few dirty fish ?

And my question back to you was: (repeated from Page 1 and page 5...)

Why don't you express your opinion?

What should MAC do with regards to certified collectors caught with cyanide?

Or what should they do if their fish test postitive for cyanide?

How about if a certified collector is caught with cyanide outside the certified collection area?

How do you think MAC should deal with these issues?

Maybe you missed them the first two times...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

demanding that ,if and when testing returns the results must be 100% clean ......is a little unrealistic..........

Who is making this demand, Kalkbreath?

my question was, "what if tests conclude that 3%percent of ALL fish in PI at any given moment have cyanide present? And even the clean collectors are unknowingly collecting a few dirty fish ?

And my question back to you was: (repeated from Page 1 and page 5...)

Why don't you express your opinion?

What should MAC do with regards to certified collectors caught with cyanide?

Or what should they do if their fish test postitive for cyanide?

How about if a certified collector is caught with cyanide outside the certified collection area?

How do you think MAC should deal with these issues?

Maybe you missed them the first two times...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

As to the question of who voiced a demand of 100%.....Several people on this post has stated that 100% is what they expect...{ PETER}....This 100%demand was even if there are other fishermen fishing next to certified collectors with seafood fishermen collecting with cyanide for food fish ........................My opinion again, is that MAC cant test because a 3% cyanide finding would ruin the party................["If a collector is caught with cyanide'] {like in his hand} he should be arrested {and forced to eat the evidence like a pot dealer does when he sees the cops coming! :lol: } Not really.........If ["collector is caught with cyanide outside collection area"]Same thing arrest............And lastly MAc should handle the issues by establishing certified collection in another counrty.....first.......then attempt reeform in PI .....because they will never be able to boast 100 % clean fish in PI ......but they could in ten other countries.......By establishing test proven success in ......say Tonga, ["TONGA"] "there I knew you could"........then they could explain like I am doing , that there is quite a lot of second hand cyanide in PI so while testing might not show 100% perfect test results......a three percent dirty finding is still quite a remarkable success........ :wink:

 

[PeterIMA]

Steve, While, I respect your knowledge about collecting methods, you can not state that mandarines are "always" collected with capranda (stick with a pin on the end pushed through the fish's fin). The CDT test results indicated some mandarines contained cyanide. I can not say whether the fishermen directed their squirt bottles at mandarins or whether the mandarins picked up cyanide directed at other species. I can say that some mandarines contained cyanide.

Stopping cyanide use should remain a priority. Hopefully, the Philippine government will improve their performance in conducting CDT to protect their marine resources.

 

[mkirda]

then they could explain like I am doing , that there is quite a lot of second hand cyanide in PI so while testing might not show 100% perfect test results......a three percent dirty finding is still quite a remarkable success.

Mulling this over the past day, a thought came to mind I thought I would share.

What if the tabacco industry tried using this as a courtroom tactic?
You can't tie tabacco to your lung cancer because you admit you went to bars and clubs where smokers were prevalent. It is not our product that is at fault, but the fact that you hung out (worked, whatever) in this smoky environment. You made that choice, therefore we are not to blame. Sorry.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Steve, While, I respect your knowledge about collecting methods, you can not state that mandarines are "always" collected with capranda (stick with a pin on the end pushed through the fish's fin). The CDT test results indicated some mandarines contained cyanide. I can not say whether the fishermen directed their squirt bottles at mandarins or whether the mandarins picked up cyanide directed at other species. I can say that some mandarines contained cyanide.

Stopping cyanide use should remain a priority. Hopefully, the Philippine government will improve their performance in conducting CDT to protect their marine resources.

Peter,

What if the Filipino government keeps doing what it has been doing in the last 20 years, meaning nothing?

 

[PeterIMA]

Jaimie, Good question. I hear that BFAR is broke. What other alternative is there (concerning CDT)?
Peter

 

[Kalkbreath]

then they could explain like I am doing , that there is quite a lot of second hand cyanide in PI so while testing might not show 100% perfect test results......a three percent dirty finding is still quite a remarkable success.

Mulling this over the past day, a thought came to mind I thought I would share.

What if the tabacco industry tried using this as a courtroom tactic?
You can't tie tabacco to your lung cancer because you admit you went to bars and clubs where smokers were prevalent. It is not our product that is at fault, but the fact that you hung out (worked, whatever) in this smoky environment. You made that choice, therefore we are not to blame. Sorry.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

What if the Medical community........ believed that five year old children cannot get respiratory problems like asthma from second hand smoke ......... and refuse to believe that the five year olds were not smoking themselves

 

[PeterIMA]

Kalk,
The only solution is to shut down the trade. Why bother arguing with the trade. The trade has and is doing nothing to solve the problems.

I thought it was interesting to see Philip Morris admitting (in recent newpaper advertisements) that smoking is harmful. That at least reduces their liability from being sued. In the case of the aquarium trade there is no justification for the existence of a trade based on cyanide fishing.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Kalk,
The only solution is to shut down the trade. Why bother arguing with the trade. The trade has and is doing nothing to solve the problems.

I thought it was interesting to see Philip Morris admitting (in recent newpaper advertisements) that smoking is harmful. That at least reduces their liability from being sued. In the case of the aquarium trade there is no justification for the existence of a trade based on cyanide fishing.

Peter ,are you for shutting down the seafood industry in PI as well...........?

 

[clarionreef]

Shut it all down,
BFAR doing nothing?
Seafood industry as well?
Both seafood and ornamentals have both legal and illegal sectors... Like immigration...legal and illegal.
Only a racist would confuse the two on immigration matters. Legal good..illegal; not.
Now hold that thought on the fishery sector.
20 years of BFAR and linkages w/ 20 odd assorted NGOs.
If they aren't making things more legal...what are they doing? Feeding off the illegal sectors has been the hallmark of shame on em all.
Real technology transfer and skills training has never been much of an obsession with many...yet is the answer far more than attempts at better bookkeeping and city based certificate printing.
Lets train... and get it over with.
Steve

 

[clarionreef]

There are plenty of alternatives to the international trade in tropical fish...
[ assuming it is not truly reformed out on the reefs...instead of in press releases and paperwork ].
The divers...almost all of them , will simply continue to do what they do best...kill fish...turtles...lobster, etc.
Just because we are largely ignorant of the food fish trade doesn't mean its not the automatic alternative to tropicals. And just because our "Discovery channel/finding Nemo , Western , anthropomorphic sensitivites" may be appeased somewhat...by stopping the trade...we will only increase the ranks of full time and newly dedicated fish killing warriors. What it would accomplish in terms of lessening our culpability in tropical fish commerce is negated by the increase in food fish plunder.
The trade in tropicals is the only reason Western consumers agree even looking at the coral reef/fishery problems in S.E.Asia. It is what defined them and 'involved' us. It gave us the right to comment...to speak and speak out. Our money and investment is involved and if we are responsible business people we will insist that it be done right.
Do you thing many fisheries in the Philippines lose sleep over the impacts they cause? The military dynamite cartel? The grouper trade? The sheer tonnage of reef fish food industry that knows no bounds? Do you think there is a hint of professional assessment in much beyond the aquarium trade?
It is exactly our involvement that brings [and hilites] so much of this. Damn Foreigners! LOOK at what they cause!
Its a fair question...and if we turn it back to the local fisheries? Worse and getting still worse. The foreign conscience embarrasses and hilights many things that they wish were not exposed.
Eliminate the involvement in Philippine fisheries and only things Philippine will be tolerated. BFAR will rule as before...unembarrassed by the worlds attention on their "fishery management"situation.
Steve

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Kalk,
The only solution is to shut down the trade. Why bother arguing with the trade. The trade has and is doing nothing to solve the problems.

I thought it was interesting to see Philip Morris admitting (in recent newpaper advertisements) that smoking is harmful. That at least reduces their liability from being sued. In the case of the aquarium trade there is no justification for the existence of a trade based on cyanide fishing.

Peter,

I think the industry is getting closer and closer to it. You are right, the trade has and is doing nothing to solve the problems. Worse, the Filipino government is doing nothing to protect their natural resources. By getting there, westerns won't be as responsible and accomplice as they're today of contributing to coral reef deterioration in those countries.

 

[Anonymous]

Jaimie, Good question. I hear that BFAR is broke. What other alternative is there (concerning CDT)?
Peter

By "other alternative" do you mean a NOAA grant to IMA for doing the CDT?

Project: Monitoring, Verification, and Testing of Marine Aquarium Fish For The Presence of Cyanide
Location: International

Implement a regional approach to conduct random sampling of marine ornamental fishes for the presence of cyanide through development and implementation of cyanide detection laboratories in the Philippines (base of activities) and other countries (Malaysia and Indonesia).

 

[Kalkbreath]

There are plenty of alternatives to the international trade in tropical fish...
[ assuming it is not truly reformed out on the reefs...instead of in press releases and paperwork ].
The divers...almost all of them , will simply continue to do what they do best...kill fish...turtles...lobster, etc.
Just because we are largely ignorant of the food fish trade doesn't mean its not the automatic alternative to tropicals. And just because our "Discovery channel/finding Nemo , Western , anthropomorphic sensitivites" may be appeased somewhat...by stopping the trade...we will only increase the ranks of full time and newly dedicated fish killing warriors. What it would accomplish in terms of lessening our culpability in tropical fish commerce is negated by the increase in food fish plunder.
The trade in tropicals is the only reason Western consumers agree even looking at the coral reef/fishery problems in S.E.Asia. It is what defined them and 'involved' us. It gave us the right to comment...to speak and speak out. Our money and investment is involved and if we are responsible business people we will insist that it be done right.
Do you thing many fisheries in the Philippines lose sleep over the impacts they cause? The military dynamite cartel? The grouper trade? The sheer tonnage of reef fish food industry that knows no bounds? Do you think there is a hint of professional assessment in much beyond the aquarium trade?
It is exactly our involvement that brings [and hilites] so much of this. Damn Foreigners! LOOK at what they cause!
Its a fair question...and if we turn it back to the local fisheries? Worse and getting still worse. The foreign conscience embarrasses and hilights many things that they wish were not exposed.
Eliminate the involvement in Philippine fisheries and only things Philippine will be tolerated. BFAR will rule as before...unembarrassed by the worlds attention on their "fishery management"situation.
Steve

..............Glad to have you aboard {Steve}................................{"Dont worry, I will stay on my side of the boat"}.But at least were on the same boat.......