The hobby can actually "SAVE" the reefs!

[Anonymous]

why should we doom them to only operate in only the most difficult areas?

Who's dooming them? They signed up for and got money for working in that very country, no one forced them to do it. I think they owe it to their funders to complete the task they were funded for in the first place, not move on a call it a lost cause.

 

[Anonymous]

When I walk into my LFSs I can typically get only the most general country of origin information on livestock from the staff. If they were to say P.I. or Indo I would know enough to stay away from the animals. Often the staff that work the store floors don't even know what ocean the animals come from.

If certification was given only to fish that excluded the P.I. and Indo I'd know a heck of a lot more than what I typically do now. If certification even only excluded a few of the worse countries we'd be better off as hobbyists and more likely have better success with our animals (certified=superior product). We'd be able to more wisely spend our money. Buying certified fish would reward areas with more ethical collection. The certification could also be extended to reformed areas within countries with questionable track records as a reward.

I don't see picking the low hanging fruit being such as bad thing if a sizable chunk of the moneys from the certified fish were used to help subsidize reform in the areas that need longterm sheparding. One of the main reasons that past NGO projects for reform in the P.I. have failed is the lack of long-term funding, IMO. Ferdie's comments indicate that the problems in the P.I. MO trade may take a very long time, and a lot of money to fix. Since MAC has a short term goal of creating a financially self sustaining certification program why should we doom them to only operate in only the most difficult areas?

Sincerely,
Lee

Lee,
Your best bet would be to know who your LFS buys their fish from. Around here most only get their's from Apet and SunPet. I don't buy from them. Seagrest (MAC certified) supplies another, but they don't get certified fish. I don't buy their fish either.

Since MAC has a short term goalof creating a financially self sustaining certification program why should we doom them to only operate in only the most difficult areas?

I think you said a mouth full there.

For the most part MOST AMERICAN'S have never been outside of their own state, much less the country, and have no idea as to how the rest of the world lives. Maybe it would be a better idea to give PI and Indo net fishermen an end of year bonus or incentive to keep them in country and from back sliding? JMO

Oh Lee and Jeff, have you ever seen a certified fish?
[/b]

 

[Anonymous]

Oh Lee and Jeff, have you ever seen a certified fish?

Nope.

 

[Anonymous]

why should we doom them to only operate in only the most difficult areas?

Who's dooming them? They signed up for and got money for working in that very country, no one forced them to do it. I think they owe it to their funders to complete the task they were funded for in the first place, not move on a call it a lost cause.

The Marine Aquarium Council (MAC) is an international, not-for-profit organization that brings marine aquarium animal collectors, exporters, importers and retailers together with aquarium keepers, public aquariums, conservation organizations and government agencies.

MAC's mission is to conserve coral reefs and other marine ecosystems by creating standards and certification for those engaged in the collection and care of ornamental marine life from reef to aquarium.

Gresham,

Based on the above statement from the MAC website, why do they have to only work in the P.I.? Where have you seen that MAC has moved on from the P.I.? Maybe they have just reallocated their priorities to other areas while the people/government in the P.I. get their act together. Even Ferdie's hands appear to be tied to a certain degree by what's going on there. According to most of the experts here at RDO if anyone could get the ball rolling over there it would seem to be Ferdie...

Stuck in my lab today ,
Lee

 

[clarionreef]

I've never seen a Sasquatch...
But I have seen and have gotten in certified fish as I deal w/ a much frustrated and disillusion certified exporter..
No one can tell by looking at em that they walk on water.. You have to refer to the paper in the filing cabinet.
Steve
PS. Frankly, they are not very good at all and we specifically exclude a number of them form orders now. The skinnyness of the batfish, the white slime coating of the maroons and the death rate of chelmon render the over intellectualization of the issue a cruel joke.
How can this be you ask? Easy. There never was a field effort beyond conventional ones. You have only been led to believe that from reading idealized standards that the 'field people' had no idea to engineer them.

 

[dizzy]

I don't see picking the low hanging fruit being such as bad thing if a sizable chunk of the moneys from the certified fish were used to help subsidize reform in the areas that need longterm sheparding. One of the main reasons that past NGO projects for reform in the P.I. have failed is the lack of long-term funding, IMO. Ferdie's comments indicate that the problems in the P.I. MO trade may take a very long time, and a lot of money to fix. Since MAC has a short term goal of creating a financially self sustaining certification program why should we doom them to only operate in only the most difficult areas?
Sincerely,
Lee

Lee,
Call it robbing Peter to pay Paul if you like, :wink: but resources spent in Hawaii are resources that could have gone into PI or Indo. Certifying already clean fish may be easy to do, but it does little or nothing to stop destrutive fishing and save reefs. In our business we are forced to prioritize where our improvements dollars are spent. If the roof is leaking we fix that before we paint the bathroom. Who's to say that a sizable chunk of the increased price of the certified Hawaiian and Fiji fish will or should go to PI or Indo. Are you suggesting that MAC is to become the Robin Hood of the marine ornamental fish business? 8O For this scheme to work you need to be able to sell it to the industry. Paying more and working harder without increased benefits is a hard sell. We'll see what happens.
Mitch

 

[clarionreef]

The entire pitch to date has been to reform the trade in Indo and the Philippines.
Failing this, they have chosen to invoke a 'legalistic out' to save face.
I understand this, expected it and warned of it 100 times.
What I don't understand is the need to cover for them and wipe their nose by 'concerned hobbyists.' Just because there was some history together when it was all just theory and conferences, dinner and travel junkets doesn't mean you forget your love of and responsibility to the ocean.
The 'personal strokes and inclusion' into the big picture was perhaps a validation for you but there is more important work to do still!

Just because the wrong people predictably failed in the Philippines, doesn't mean the right people would...especially professional people from the Philippines who have watched the foreigners make one blunder after another while slowly shaking their heads.
Involving the target country beyond a token country co-ordinator in a serious way is called for from now on. This NGO paternalism for the enhancement of foreign careers is a tired routine and has run its course.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Lee, go to Packards site, and search for exactly what they were given money for. I doubt it'll say it was for "to assess the situation in PI, and move on if it gets hard".

Sure, they're mission statement doesn't "doom" them to PI, but they're ENTIRE PITCH to the world does. Oh, BTW LEE, I happen to see they're trying to gain another person in PI on payroll, thats strange, you said they failled there, so they're moving on. Can it be, even the followers don 't know what the "god" is going?

 

[Anonymous]

Stuck in my lab today

Drain-o my friend Drain-o, it unclogs stuck things

 

[Anonymous]

i find it interesting that kalk chose the thread title he chose.....

i don't recall anyone ever saying that the efforts some of the hobby/biz folk are trying to implement will 'save' the reefs

it's my understanding that lessening the damage was the central point-thereby HELPING to minimize whatever damage we can, as those who contribute

of course it doesn't guarantee that our efforts wll save them-but that isn't the point, is it?

i wonder if kalk comprehends the distinction between the two-seems to me he continually tries to label most of the matter/efforts incorrectly

 

[Anonymous]

i wonder if kalk comprehends

8O

Don't we all :lol:

 

[mkirda]

i find it interesting that kalk chose the thread title he chose.....

i wonder if kalk comprehends the distinction between the two-seems to me he continually tries to label most of the matter/efforts incorrectly

Why worry your shaggy ol' head with what Kalk does?

Mike

 

[Anonymous]

heh- who said i was worried? :wink:

i find it interesting :wink:

 

[devils advocate]

Just sitting back and laughing at the "MAC-bashers" now being overly critical about their decision to certify Fiji and Hawaii. Wasn't this plan of action suggested and supported by many in order to "test" the certification system. No they haven't done what they said in PI, but hey, at least now there will be quality certified fish available.

 

[clarionreef]

Devils,
Fijis for beginners and a well paid NGO represented themselves differently to funders and the public for years.
Lying for half a decade and then admitting the time and money was squandered is no laughing matter.
At least now there will be quality certified fish available to go with the quality un-certified fish.
Wow...thank goodness for tiny steps that took 5 years. ..hail victory!
Steve

PS. How come lying to get a loan is fraud...but lying to get grants is not?

 

[devils advocate]

Hey Steve...it was just an obversation of mine about the criticism of MAC in Fiji and Hawaii. I got a chuckle from that, not at how money was spent. It seems whatever they do will be unsatisfactory to some.

At least steps are being taken, albeit very small ones. Isn't this a step forward from where others left off five years ago.

PS - I'm not privy to how the monies were obtained, fraudulently or otherwise, so I can't comment on that.

 

[Kalkbreath]

This hobby can" save the reefs "........by replacing industries like land based agriculture and blast fishing and cement mining. And those three industries are buy far the greatest threats to every reef world wide. If these industries were all replaced by coral collection and damsel netting .........the reefs would be much better off. The only 100 percent way stop the islanders from exploiting their resources altogether ....... we could do like they did to Bikini Island ...............relocate all the people from the islands and leave the islands totally uninhabited. { It might be a good idea not to test A- bombs in the lagoon though :wink:

 

[clarionreef]

Kalk,
You're right. There are more damaging things to reefs in general then aquarium collecting. However, there are areas where aquarium collecting has killed more reef then the other things.
Offshore deeper reefs where the siltation was nil and dynamite fishing low [ because of the depth] cyanide fishing is often the only mark of man that you may find. At 60 feet 8 miles offshore from Bolinao, Pangasinan, I remember acro fields dead...[yet intact and standing ] to the last coral over 1 foot across.
The water was so free and clear of siltation that acros were still all over the place. The cyanide fisherman I lived with for a few years there had hit that place hundreds of times to catch blue tangs, bicolor angels, tibicens, halfblacks, coral beauties, flagfins, regals and the vanishing imperators.
These areas are still debilitated and unproductive.

The fixation on cyanide fishing is due largely in part because it has outside accomplices and supporters ie. buyers. Local destructive fishing that markets only to Filipinos draws less fire as there are no foreigners to co-blame.
Conversely, the cyanide problem gives legitamite 'entry' to us outsiders to assist in fixing the damage we helped perpetuate. I don't know about you but I haven't eaten any dynamited fish lately.
During the thousands of underwater hours that I had there, I remember the daily bombardment of dynamiting the shallower areas and the surface areas on the way out. I remember the coral collecting for paving and construction and the lining of the main street with 3 foot high and wide pocillaporas as a decoration. [ favorite hangout of blue tangs].

To anyone of local experience, the combination of assaults on the reef by other factors is a given. Its obvious and undeniable. That is why I highlighted it so much in my earlier magazine articles published in the 80's.

We are not the only ones to blame....The local lack of leadership and insensitive government always had a huge role in it.
Despite the peoples revolution, the new Democracy and the desk MAC maintains at BFARs head office, adjacent to the directors office...the lack of meaningful fishery extention services, training and law enforcement continue. Not everywhere, but in plenty of places.
Steve
PS. Kalk...if you change your avatar...people will be more accepting when you talk sense. You do talk sense but then do your very best to bury it in the rest of the presentation.

 

[dizzy]

Just sitting back and laughing at the "MAC-bashers" now being overly critical about their decision to certify Fiji and Hawaii. Wasn't this plan of action suggested and supported by many in order to "test" the certification system. No they haven't done what they said in PI, but hey, at least now there will be quality certified fish available.

Dear devil,
Certifying Hawaii and Fiji is like kissing your sister. It may get people like you turned on, but doesn't do it for the ones who want to see positive change coming out of the Philippines. The only one I remember suggesting such a plan was our humble moderator. I think it is now being done for the benefit of the certified dealers who don't have anything certified to sell. If certification ever really catches on there will prolly not be enough certified fish to go around. The small town marine dealers will prolly be history. I doubt you give a rat's ass, but at least you will have fun laughing your ass off.

 

[Anonymous]

The small town marine dealers will prolly be history. I doubt you give a rat's ass, but at least you will have fun laughing your ass off.

Mitch,

Here's a Kleenex. You small retailers and importers keep singing the same sad song. Here it is, the MAC Bashers top 4 list: "MAC is gonna fail", "MAC is failing", "MAC has failed", "if MAC succeeds the small retailer is gonna be driven out of business", "if MAC succeeds the certified fisheries will fail under increased collection pressure". Which is it? Do you want MAC to fail or do you want MAC to succeed? Is the sky falling?

-Lee