The hobby can actually "SAVE" the reefs!

[Kalkbreath]

Here is the test.........Find me a photo of any reef world wide[with ten or more types of coral in the image,] in which fifty percent or more of the corals in the photo are marketable. {i.e. collectable and similar to what you see in an LFS} We as a hobby collect a very limited range of corals and because so few of the corals on any reef are even of the size or type which hobbyists demand, .. Second, any so called "raped" reefs{if there were any} would recover just as fast as a reef hit by a typhoon or lava blanket or a heard of bump head parrot fish.. If reefs recover within a few years from these natural distroytors of live coral,then any local over harvesting of certain corals would{ if the reef is healthy} recover as fast as someone placing dry rock into the ocean to create aquacultured liverock. It is only when collectors are collecting coral for the hobby from reefs degraded from other pressures like silt run off from agriculture or other stresses on the over all health of the reefs.......that collection of coral may become unsustainable. Collecting or removing a coral from my aquarium has zero negative effects on the other corals in my captive reef. In fact it usually has the opposite effect, over crowding is a major problem for any healthy reef whether its a reef aquarium or a natural reef like the Great Barrier Reef. Take a look at photos of the GBR. Most of the reefs are dominated by huge table Acroporas very little other coras. How many photos have you ever seen in which the coral in the picture was the size and kind of acro we see in the LFS? I challange any one to find a photo of a palm sized acropora in the wild? We as a hobby collect tiny colonies, most of which will soon be over shadowed and shaded by the faster growing colonies growing above it .If you have ten small colonies growing close to eachother.......a few years latter there will only be one collonie remaining . One coral will usually kill off the others in a competition for realistate It has been demonstrated by others that one single bump head parrot fish eats several tons of live coral each year. How many brain corals do angel fish like lemonpeels pick to death each year in the wild? Do you think dwf angels only pick on brain corals in our aquariums?{yah I know in the wild the corals can escape and flee} Healthy reefs are like a topiary bush at Disneyland. you can prune off some of the growth each day and as long as its healthy it will be fine . The reefs need above all else a healthy environment and pure water. Something our hobby needs to get involved in NOW ! What better way then to pay money to islanders to not clear cut their forests by buying the live corals and farming the water instead of the land.

 

[Anonymous]

What would happen if the bumphead parrot population suddenly doubled?

 

[mkirda]

How many photos have you ever seen in which the coral in the picture was the size and kind of acro we see in the LFS? I challange any one to find a photo of a palm sized acropora in the wild?

A ridiculous challenge. What does it prove other than non-spectacular shots of underwater scenery don't sell? All I have to do is open up my book of slides from Tukang Besi and I can find several dozen such images. There were hundreds, if not hundreds of thousands, of such colonies, fist-sized and smaller. Perfect for hobby collection.

You really, really, need to visit a reef sometime, Kalk, so you stop making these absolutely ridiculous statements.

Healthy reefs are like a topiary bush at Disneyland. you can prune off some of the growth each day and as long as its healthy it will be fine . The reefs need above all else a healthy environment and pure water. Something our hobby needs to get involved in NOW ! What better way then to pay money to islanders to not clear cut their forests by buying the live corals and farming the water instead of the land.

Followed by something simplistic, but that makes sense.
You think they are not already doing this?
Where they can, they are doing exactly this.
And for the most part, it isn't clear-cutting at this point- That has already been done. It is replanting the trees that were illegally logged and replanting the mangroves that were torn up for all the illegal (and now abandoned) aquaculture shrimp ponds.

But "the hobby" is not going to plant trees. This is something that must happen on a local governmental level. Only by reducing the major pressures, including improving water quality, reducing sedimentation, and destructive collection methods, will the reefs really begin to rebound. Nets and trainings are just the first baby step of a fairly long journey. The hobby can help by providing a market for their products, and maybe some microgrants here and there for things like nets and jars and other various implements. The rest is going to have to come from somewhere else.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

I challange any one to find a photo of a palm sized acropora in the wild? .

:roll:
Kalk, you really need to get off your butt and do some of your own leg work. :wink: Go visit a reef, ANY reef. I'll donate $10. to the "KALK'S REEF EDUCATION FUND".

Healthy reefs are like a topiary bush at Disneyland. you can prune off some of the growth each day and as long as its healthy it will be fine . .

Not true, every cut on that topiary(reef) opens it up to infection whether it's healthy or not. And no...Disney horticulturists don't prune the same plant everyday. They'd run out of leaves in a rather short time. 8O

 

[Kalkbreath]

Many of the island nations that we collect corals from ...... still have most of their trees intact like Tonga, Vanuatu, Fiji Solomans , Phonape, are at a point in time when they are about to decide what industries to alow to into their islands. Coral collection or agriculture?

 

[Kalkbreath]

I challange any one to find a photo of a palm sized acropora in the wild? .

:roll:
Kalk, you really need to get off your butt and do some of your own leg work. :wink: Go visit a reef, ANY reef. I'll donate $10. to the "KALK'S REEF EDUCATION FUND".

Healthy reefs are like a topiary bush at Disneyland. you can prune off some of the growth each day and as long as its healthy it will be fine . .

Not true, every cut on that topiary(reef) opens it up to infection whether it's healthy or not. And no...Disney horticulturists don't prune the same plant everyday. They'd run out of leaves in a rather short time. 8O

Okey they prune the new sprouts once a week . What percent of the Acroporas in the wild are larger the palm size?98.99?

 

[Kalkbreath]

How many photos have you ever seen in which the coral in the picture was the size and kind of acro we see in the LFS? I challange any one to find a photo of a palm sized acropora in the wild?

A ridiculous challenge. What does it prove other than non-spectacular shots of underwater scenery don't sell? All I have to do is open up my book of slides from Tukang Besi and I can find several dozen such images. There were hundreds, if not hundreds of thousands, of such colonies, fist-sized and smaller. Perfect for hobby collection.

You really, really, need to visit a reef sometime, Kalk, so you stop making these absolutely ridiculous statements.

Healthy reefs are like a topiary bush at Disneyland. you can prune off some of the growth each day and as long as its healthy it will be fine . The reefs need above all else a healthy environment and pure water. Something our hobby needs to get involved in NOW ! What better way then to pay money to islanders to not clear cut their forests by buying the live corals and farming the water instead of the land.

Followed by something simplistic, but that makes sense.
You think they are not already doing this?
Where they can, they are doing exactly this.
And for the most part, it isn't clear-cutting at this point- That has already been done. It is replanting the trees that were illegally logged and replanting the mangroves that were torn up for all the illegal (and now abandoned) aquaculture shrimp ponds.

But "the hobby" is not going to plant trees. This is something that must happen on a local governmental level. Only by reducing the major pressures, including improving water quality, reducing sedimentation, and destructive collection methods, will the reefs really begin to rebound. Nets and trainings are just the first baby step of a fairly long journey. The hobby can help by providing a market for their products, and maybe some microgrants here and there for things like nets and jars and other various implements. The rest is going to have to come from somewhere else.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

The number one non fish export from Tonga, Fiji and Solomon's is what? .........Kava?. Which "crop" poses more of a danger to the reefs of these nations increased agriculture or increased coral collection?

 

[mkirda]

The number one non fish export from Tonga, Fiji and Solomon's is what? .........Kava?. Which "crop" poses more of a danger to the reefs of these nations increased agriculture or increased coral collection?

None of these islands has a problem with their reefs on a large-scale.
Why even mention them?

 

[Kalkbreath]

The number one non fish export from Tonga, Fiji and Solomon's is what? .........Kava?. Which "crop" poses more of a danger to the reefs of these nations increased agriculture or increased coral collection?

None of these islands has a problem with their reefs on a large-scale.
Why even mention them?

Because these islands are at the same point in the evolution of their economies as The Philippines and Indonesia were in the 1940s. The land owners want more wealth.......and there is a new supply of workers wanting to work {immigrants} Why wait until its too late? These countries need to be guided to make the right choices today. Once they sign contracts with land developers and foreign investors, the last vestal frontier will be lost. Stop wasting time and resources lost causes like PI. Its a lot easier to keep your virginity then it is to get your virginity back once its lost..........

 

[mkirda]

The number one non fish export from Tonga, Fiji and Solomon's is what? .........Kava?. Which "crop" poses more of a danger to the reefs of these nations increased agriculture or increased coral collection?

None of these islands has a problem with their reefs on a large-scale.
Why even mention them?

Because these islands are at the same point in the evolution of their economies as The Philippines and Indonesia were in the 1940s. The land owners want more wealth.......and there is a new supply of workers wanting to work {immigrants} Why wait until its too late? These countries need to be guided to make the right choices today. Once they sign contracts with land developers and foreign investors, the last vestal frontier will be lost. Stop wasting time and resources lost causes like PI. Its a lot easier to keep your virginity then it is to get your virginity back once its lost..........

So the logic is: Attack the problem where the problem isn't?

That makes about as much sense as burning down your house to get rid of the houseflies.

 

[dizzy]

So the logic is: Attack the problem where the problem isn't?That makes about as much sense as burning down your house to get rid of the houseflies.

Mike,
I just read Ferdie's excellent and sobering post on the EASI thread. It sounds like there are massive problems in the Phillipines. Yet when I look at the "Tentative Progam" of speakers for MO, it seems like MAC is much more focused on areas where the problem isn't, i.e. Fiji, Hawaii, and aquaculture. I have a feeling the panel discussion Peter organized on March 1st will be the most enlighting session at the whole conference. Drawning up plans to certify and tax aquaculture, while leaving the mess in PI to fend for itself boggles the mind. Talk about misdirected priorites, sounds like the inmates are running the aslum again.
Mitch

 

[Anonymous]

Or maybe Kalk is suggesting that those countries without problems learn form the mistakes of those who have gone before?

 

[Anonymous]

Or maybe Kalk is suggesting that those countries without problems learn form the mistakes of those who have gone before?

Or possibly mean why waste money and effot on areas that might be beyond saving and let other areas that can be saved perish because too much time is spent on a lost cause.

 

[clarionreef]

Gentleman from the South,
Hawaii and Fiji are not about to decsend into the S.E.Asian environmental hell, The differences in their histories and current issues is huge!
There is none and will be no wholesale squirting of cyanide in Fiji and Hawaiian corals.
The retreat to safe and pleasant Central Pacific is one based on failure in S.E.Asia and the inability to connect with fisherman there. So, they retreat to where member dealers already have serious investment and can deliver obedient in-house staff and fishermen to the program...making them look good. This is for them...not Fiji or Hawaii!
The species diversity is not the same and the abandonment or years delay of Asian reform is a cowardly tactic that will backfire and lose them still more credibility in the Philippines and Asia where they remain with little to show for great expenditures.
Keep your eye on the ball gentleman,
Steve
OS. Chris,
If this cause is lost, it will not be because it couldn't be won, but because of the team of ill-prepared people losing it.

 

[Anonymous]

So the logic is: Attack the problem where the problem isn't?That makes about as much sense as burning down your house to get rid of the houseflies.

Mike,
I just read Ferdie's excellent and sobering post on the EASI thread. It sounds like there are massive problems in the Phillipines. Yet when I look at the "Tentative Progam" of speakers for MO, it seems like MAC is much more focused on areas where the problem isn't, i.e. Fiji, Hawaii, and aquaculture. I have a feeling the panel discussion Peter organized on March 1st will be the most enlighting session at the whole conference. Drawning up plans to certify and tax aquaculture, while leaving the mess in PI to fend for itself boggles the mind. Talk about misdirected priorites, sounds like the inmates are running the aslum again.
Mitch

If I were developing a self-supporting certification program I'd start with the low hanging fruit: areas with good supply, low levels of exploitation and few social/political/criminal collection issues. After getting a certified and obviously superior product to market then I'd start whittling away at areas with greater problems knowing that it might well take a great deal of time and effort to make inroads.

It appears to me that MAC went into the P.I. with a false understanding that the P.I. was closer to being ready for certification than it really was. After there they found: backslidden collectors, a failing national CDT program, corruption, failure to impose fines/imprisonment for criminal collection techniques, public resistance to net training programs, etc., etc., etc. Why shouldn't MAC go to greener pastures? They have invested a lot in the P.I. for very little return on dollar. I'd pull my money from the P.I., invest elsewhere, and after a while go back to the P.I. when they are willing to talk turkey.

-Lee

 

[clarionreef]

You said it Lee, I didn't.
You said it was wise for them to put their investment in a safer place.
You characterize them like a business ...in it for their own ease, convenience and simplicity.
Fiji and Hawaii are already clean! And not in need of outsiders who can't swim to come in and take credit for existing successes!
If there is any relevance to them at all, it is in their contributions in the core of the industries fish supply in Asia and not in the tourist zones of the Central Pacific.
I'm surprised at your inference that MAC is like a lost, inept private concern looking for a safe spot far from the areas of greatest need.
Yes, the futher from the problem, the safer it gets. Their mandate and mission was not to play it safe and look for a soft spot to sit down. Their entire purpose was to contribute to making the trade sustainable where it counts the most!
Fine....Support this permanant vacation for this useless organization then. You have just registered your agreement that they are indeed a failure and 'lost' in S.E.Asia!
I guess its better to have them out of the way anyhow.
Steve

 

[dizzy]

If I were developing a self-supporting certification program I'd start with the low hanging fruit: areas with good supply, low levels of exploitation and few social/political/criminal collection issues. After getting a certified and obviously superior product to market then I'd start whittling away at areas with greater problems knowing that it might well take a great deal of time and effort to make inroads.
-Lee

Lee,
In Fiji, Hawaii, and aquaculture MAC will be fixing things that ain't broke. It will have the appearance of creating a large bureaucracy, just to keep the $150K salaries coming for the top dogs and friends. How can you honestly claim it will be a superior product when the DOA/DAA numbers will be virtually identical for MAC certified fish from Fiji compared to non-MAC certified fish from Fiji? The same for Hawaii and aquaculture. Certification in these areas will not bring a superior product, it will only add cost to the current product and bring more paperwork for the certified dealers. The Philippines and Indo are the places that need the reform and places where MAC can earn respect if they are able to bring about positive change. It seems to me that by pushing these areas with limited fish variety MAC may cause over collecting from these areas. Lee if an organization is going to claim that a certified product is better than a non-certified one, it actually needs to be better. Otherwise an already seriously over-worked industry will pass on the increased workload. Is that so hard to understand?

 

[Kalkbreath]

If I were developing a self-supporting certification program I'd start with the low hanging fruit: areas with good supply, low levels of exploitation and few social/political/criminal collection issues. After getting a certified and obviously superior product to market then I'd start whittling away at areas with greater problems knowing that it might well take a great deal of time and effort to make inroads.
-Lee

Lee,
In Fiji, Hawaii, and aquaculture MAC will be fixing things that ain't broke. It will have the appearance of creating a large bureaucracy, just to keep the $150K salaries coming for the top dogs and friends. How can you honestlyt claim it will be a superior product when the DOA/DAA numbers will be virtually identical for MAC certified fish from Fiji compared to non-MAC certified fish from Fiji? The same for Hawaii and aquaculture. Certification in these areas will not bring a superior product, it will only add cost to the current product and bring more pape]rwork for the certified dealers. The Philippines and Indo are the places that need the reform and places where MAC can earn respect if they are able to bring about positive change. It seems to me that by pushing these areas with limited fish variety MAC may cause over collecting from these areas. Lee if an organization is going to claim that a certified product is better than a non-certified one, it actually needs to be better. Otherwise an already seriously over-worked industry will pass on the increased workload. Is that so hard to understand?

By not certifying PI or Indonesia........MAC would also be highlighting the fact that there are plenty of places to collect from in the world and have zero{almost} impact on the health of the reefs. {A GOOD THING for the image of the hobby}I sea that a lot of what I stated weeks ago like the food fish industry in PI and how it effects the hobby .........is now being restated by Ferdinan Cruz.What if the food fish industry truley does prevent our industry form sorting itself out in the Philippines?When is it time to stop beating ourselves against the wall?.When does the damage to the hobby become more important then fixing PI?Soon we may not even need fish from PI......, The days of needing a huge diversity of fish is over...How many Butterflies are imported today compared to Franks or Peters data from 1996?....reef tanks have and continue to decrease the demand for all but the reef friendly species. Fish only tanks are decreasing in popularity more and more each year. It may very well be that in the NOT so distant future......... the little problem of collecting hobby fish in The Philippines will solve itself with a lack of demand for cheap fish at all........ other then Damsels, clownfish ,gobies and blennies .Which Shrilanka can handlejust fine. Exports for PI are down 75% from ten years ago and exports are up in every competing country. Lets set up the new future suppliers for the trade[ Tonga Fiji Shrilanka etc] in a sustainable and hobby reputation saving way[ NOW] before the whole hobby is taken down with the Philippines ?

 

[clarionreef]

Wow,
Bailing out when the going got rough confirms and validates the years of getting it right about them from the start!
Pardon me for getting it right the first time.
Those of us who know dogs... can tell when a dog won't hunt.
Others need to waste a year to find out that truth offered for free long ago.
They should've embraced the CORL accord last year and then if the divers didn't get trained properly...they could've blamed it on CORL!
We at CORL were mindful of this when MAC was actually looking to unload the hot potato. We were not worried though because we know that we really could've and would've trained a thousand men in the first year.
Alas, they decided not to work together and the rest is a lack of progress for 2003.
Refusing to delegate, work with others and involve professionals has been the hallmark of this soon to be footnote in the history of the trade.
Breaking the mission and running away from the front lines defines them as some nerdy white guys that got in over their heads and finally decided that descretion was the better part of valor.
Have a good time in Fiji and Hawaii guys. Sounds like fun!
Meanwhile others will tackle the real job. We'll see you when its done so you can come in and try to claim it for your own! [as usual]
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

When I walk into my LFSs I can typically get only the most general country of origin information on livestock from the staff. If they were to say P.I. or Indo I would know enough to stay away from the animals. Often the staff that work the store floors don't even know what ocean the animals come from.

If certification was given only to fish that excluded the P.I. and Indo I'd know a heck of a lot more than what I typically do now. If certification even only excluded a few of the worse countries we'd be better off as hobbyists and more likely have better success with our animals (certified=superior product). We'd be able to more wisely spend our money. Buying certified fish would reward areas with more ethical collection. The certification could also be extended to reformed areas within countries with questionable track records as a reward.

I don't see picking the low hanging fruit being such as bad thing if a sizable chunk of the moneys from the certified fish were used to help subsidize reform in the areas that need longterm sheparding. One of the main reasons that past NGO projects for reform in the P.I. have failed is the lack of long-term funding, IMO. Ferdie's comments indicate that the problems in the P.I. MO trade may take a very long time, and a lot of money to fix. Since MAC has a short term goal of creating a financially self sustaining certification program why should we doom them to only operate in only the most difficult areas?

Sincerely,
Lee