Seacare says... : Cdn Importer's Comment abt CYANIDE CAUGHT.

[Ad van Tage]

This what it says at Seacare's website about CYANIDE CAUGHT fish... :

http://seacare.org/Merchant2/graphics/0 ... SCFAQ.html :

[ Q ] Do you sell Cyanide caught fish?

[ A ] We exclusively carry Cyanide Free fish from the Solomon Islands, Marshall Islands, Vanuatu, Hawaii, Sri Lanka, Maldives, Brazil and Caribbean.
Our Philippine supplier has their fish randomly tested by the Philippine Bureau of Fisheries and Aquatic Resources for the presence of Cyanide***.

We DO NOT import fish from Indonesia because Cyanide use there is rampant.

Yes, the fish maybe cheaper but when you have to buy them 3 or 4 times to get one that lives, the final cost to you and the reef is much greater.
It is a documented fact that 95% of Cyanide caught fish perish before they reach your aquarium.
How many more then slowly waste away and die in the next 3 to 6 weeks?

It is very sad that people still sell Cyanide caught fish due to business reasons.
If the Governments ban the import of wild caught corals and fish we have the cyanide stores and our own apathy to blame!

What of the:
...but when you have to buy them 3 or 4 times to get one that lives, ...
AND
It is a documented fact that 95% of Cyanide caught fish perish before they reach your aquarium. ???

Any disagreement there? Other than from Jeff Koutnik, owner of Cappuccino Bay Aquarium, Marietta, GA. ### ???

_________________
~ Ad aka Ecoworrier ~
NOT ASSOCIATED with Seacare,
nor with Cappuccino Bay Aquarium!

*** Their weblink to http://www.imamarinelife.org/cdt.htm does not work.
It is not available. Not only that, a CDT test by BFAR is not either , I believe... 8O 8O 8O

### Soon we can also buy cyanide fishies faster and cheaper via the Internet...

 

[dizzy]

What of the:
...but when you have to buy them 3 or 4 times to get one that lives, ...
AND
It is a documented fact that 95% of Cyanide caught fish perish before they reach your aquarium. ???

Any disagreement there? Other than from Jeff Koutnik, owner of Cappuccino Bay Aquarium, Marietta, GA. ### ???

_________________
~ Ad aka Ecoworrier ~
NOT ASSOCIATED with Seacare,
nor with Cappuccino Bay Aquarium!

*** Their weblink to http://www.imamarinelife.org/cdt.htm does not work.
It is not available. Not only that, a CDT test by BFAR is not either , I believe... 8O 8O 8O

### Soon we can also buy cyanide fishies faster and cheaper via the Internet...

Ad,
Those figures appear to be made up and this time it is not Mr. Koutnik with the imagination. Who documented that 95% of all cyanide caught fish die before they reach aquariums? Was it Frank Lallo? Do another search my friend. Without a realiable CDT test and good tracking no one can make those type of claims. It is pure emotion. The end trying to justify the means again. I don't want to call Tim out on this, but if he has information that was not shared here, I certainly would like to see it. BTW I do not join Jeff in suggesting that cyanide is not harmful, I just dispute the fact that it has been documented that 95% of fish captured in this manner die before they reach aquariums. I hope I have been clear on that.

 

[mkirda]

Any disagreement there?

The 95% NUMBER is certainly "documented" in papers, but it is probably based more on worst-case field observations than objective scientifically verifiable numbers.

For some few species, the number is near that. For others, not so at all.
Some fish tolerate exposure better than others.

It is believed that fish caught with cyanide tend to die from stress easier than net-caught overall.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[PeterIMA]

For those seeking more CDT data from my paper go to the IMA website at http://www.marine.org Tim has the old website which is now inactive.

Peter Rubec

PS As far as Mike Kirda's statements about mortality "In my opinion" should be used to qualify his statements. I will present data at MO 04 that is more than speculation.

Peter Rubec

 

[clarionreef]

Wow Peter!
Click on to the new IMA website people... and see the IMA message about the "certification of cyanide fish!"
My goodness, with Phds and other NGOs all saying the same thing now the reform camp is getting kinda crowded.
I guess if you hang on to the truth long enough it will become in vogue again.
Steve

 

[mkirda]

PS As far as Mike Kirda's statements about mortality "In my opinion" should be used to qualify his statements. I will present data at MO 04 that is more than speculation.

Peter Rubec

Peter,

The numbers published so far *that I have seen* put the number at around 80%, not 95%. I have heard of the 95% reference, but never pulled it.
The 80% number was based on field observations, or reported info.
IOW, anecdotal information that may or may not reflect actual reality.

I am not sure that we'll ever get a completely accurate number everyone will be satisfied with.

Least people begin to think that I'm sounding like Kalkbreath, I'll state for the record that I've always believed that these numbers were accurate for some fish, but I've never thought it was accurate as an average across ALL fish. And regardless of where we put the number, be it 30% or 50% or 85% or 99.9%, the fact that cyanide destroys coral reefs means that its use is indefensible. The exact percentage matters less.

And remember, Peter, I'm the ONLY ONE who was advocating that everyone shouldn't jump to conclusions on Lallo's numbers. I, for one, am glad that they are finally coming out.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[MaryHM]

WOW!! The IMA as an organization publicly speaks out against MAC. I am rarely surprised. I am now shocked.

 

[Ad van Tage]

What of the:
...but when you have to buy them 3 or 4 times to get one that lives, ...
AND
It is a documented fact that 95% of Cyanide caught fish perish before they reach your aquarium. ???

Any disagreement there? Other than from Jeff Koutnik, owner of Cappuccino Bay Aquarium, Marietta, GA. ### ???

_________________
~ Ad aka Ecoworrier ~
NOT ASSOCIATED with Seacare,
nor with Cappuccino Bay Aquarium!

*** Their weblink to http://www.imamarinelife.org/cdt.htm does not work.
It is not available. Not only that, a CDT test by BFAR is not either , I believe... 8O 8O 8O

### Soon we can also buy cyanide fishies faster and cheaper via the Internet...

Ad,
Those figures appear to be made up and this time it is not Mr. Koutnik with the imagination.
Who documented that 95% of all cyanide caught fish die before they reach aquariums?
Was it Frank Lallo? Do another search my friend.

Without a realiable CDT test and good tracking no one can make those type of claims. It is pure emotion.

The end trying to justify the means again.

I don't want to call Tim out on this, but if he has information that was not shared here, I certainly would like to see it.

BTW I do not join Jeff in suggesting that cyanide is not harmful,
I just dispute the fact that it has been documented that 95% of fish captured in this manner die before they reach aquariums. I hope I have been clear on that.

1st) I have actually, before posting here, already contacted Tim Tessier's company Seacare.
And have IMMEDIATELY had a response. Unfortunately at this time I have no further technical data from Tim yet...

2nd) I understand that it clearly is the Tessiers' intent to not sell any cyanide caught fish.

3rd) Jeff K. aka Kalkbreath actually EXPLICITY stated that he DOES NOT SAY that cyanide in NOT A PROBLEM.
I think we can make all sorts of remarks about his twisted logic, but mustn't put words in his mouth... He has enough of those ...

4th) I quite understand your confusion though, for while reading his [ Jeff's ] various posts one can not escape the IMPRESSION that he peddles the idea that there is no problem... Talk about eating AND having cake, eh! :roll: :roll:

5th) Last and not least, I too am trying to understand claims one finds on webpages. The 95% seems high to me... But since I havve no counter data, I have asked for clarification. :idea: :idea:

IF the data is so, and the statement is correct, it is shocking and ALL should take note. If the data does not support that statement , then it needs to be revised. Likely it will still be shocking! ***

AND, I applaud Seacare for drawing attention to the problem, rather than trying to sweep it under the carpet.

How many others =- exporters, importers, and retailers alike -= are doing the same???

Btw. suggesting

Do another search my friend.

is pointless... there are no "fingerprints" on the stated data. And as I stated, I already wrote to Seacare. [ Seascare (?) ]

As for

It is pure emotion.

I see no emotion in the quoted webpage. At worst incorrect nunbers. But I would sooner dwell on the "exaggeration of the problem" side, than with the minimalizing crowd!

Your

Without a realiable CDT test...

is an implied statement of fact. I am not convinced of its veracity. But will pursue on a new thread. :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:

[ End of editorial comments ]

_________________
~ Ad aka Ecoworrier ~

*** For your

I just dispute the fact that it has been documented that 95% ...

what is your data?

 

[dizzy]

*** For your

I just dispute the fact that it has been documented that 95% ...

what is your data?

Ad,
A couple of things for you to ponder. When I said do a search it was in conjuntion with a reference to Frank Lallo. To my knowledge no testing has been done at the import level. For someone to state that 95% death rate is a "documented fact" there would need to be some form of proof that the reason fish were dying was because of cyanide. How can you assume that if 25% of the fish tested positive, then 100% or 90% or whatever of the fish that died was because of cyanide? Some of us challenged the Lallo figures and you should go back and read why.

We have cyanide testing and we have a guy who calls pet shops and asks for their DOA information. How in hell someone can get 95% from that is beyond me.

BTW your right kalk has admitted that cyanide is bad. I was talking about Jeff Moore the guy across the street. Sorry for the confusion.

What we can say for absolute sure is that 100% of the fish that were cyanide positive in the tests, died before they reached hobbyist aquariums. This is a documented fact. :wink:

 

[naesco]

Any disagreement there?

The 95% NUMBER is certainly "documented" in papers, but it is probably based more on worst-case field observations than objective scientifically verifiable numbers.

For some few species, the number is near that. For others, not so at all.
Some fish tolerate exposure better than others.

It is believed that fish caught with cyanide tend to die from stress easier than net-caught overall.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

No Mike Kirda, fish caught with cyanide die from cyanide poisoning.
Half of them die immediately and of the remaining, half die by the time they hit the beach.
Those that survive the transit time to the wholesaler online store and LFS are sold to unsuspecting reefers where they languish for a few months and die for no apparent reason.

Thank you Seacare for .........caring!!!!

 

[Anonymous]

edit: I actually attended Lalo's School of Math.

 

[dizzy]

As for

It is pure emotion.

I see no emotion in the quoted webpage. At worst incorrect nunbers. But I would sooner dwell on the "exaggeration of the problem" side, than with the minimalizing crowd!

I would prefer to deal with facts. Documented or not. Why use sensational numbers to get people stirred up when even simple kalk logic shows them to be unrealistic. (Oh yeah, do the Lallo search)

 

[Anonymous]

So wait, Naesco, what actually puts food on the table for the collector if 3/4's of what he collects, dies? What incentive is there for him to continue with such a practice? With those figures you just pulled outa Kalk's box, I can see HOW LALO ACTUALLY CAME UP WITH HIS FIGURES.

 

[clarionreef]

Really true Dizzy,
The truth is strong enough and need not be embellished.
I remember back when the issue first broke in the early 80's, people were claiming their yellow tangs were even caught with cyanide.
That was then used by some dealers in L.A. to show what a bunch of "looneys" the eco-aquarists were!
They were right of course. Some of us are looney and it threatens all via osmosis. From now on I recommend everyone type further away from the monitor and limit your time in front of the computer when carriers are about.
Steve

 

[Ad van Tage]

Peter, .......................
I am not sure that we'll ever get a completely accurate number everyone will be satisfied with.

Least people begin to think that I'm sounding like Kalkbreath, I'll state for the record that I've always believed that these numbers were accurate for some fish, but I've never thought it was accurate as an average across ALL fish.

And regardless of where we put the number, be it 30% or 50% or 85% or 99.9%, the fact that cyanide destroys coral reefs means that its use is indefensible.
[/i]The exact percentage matters less.[/i]

........................

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN to the
"And regardless of where we put the number,
be it 30% or 50% or 85% or 99.9%,
the fact that cyanide destroys coral reefs means that its use is
INDEFENSIBLE."

Rather than nit-pick the %%%s , I think the "trade" will be well advised
to support MEANINGFUL measures to knock out cyanide abuse.

 

[mkirda]

No Mike Kirda, fish caught with cyanide die from cyanide poisoning.
Half of them die immediately and of the remaining, half die by the time they hit the beach.
Those that survive the transit time to the wholesaler online store and LFS are sold to unsuspecting reefers where they languish for a few months and die for no apparent reason.

Hi, Wayne.

You make the claim. Back it up. Where did you get your figures?
And how can you be sure that there are no cyanide caught fish that do survive past a few months and end up dying of old age in captivity?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[naesco]

Peter, .......................
I am not sure that we'll ever get a completely accurate number everyone will be satisfied with.

Least people begin to think that I'm sounding like Kalkbreath, I'll state for the record that I've always believed that these numbers were accurate for some fish, but I've never thought it was accurate as an average across ALL fish.

And regardless of where we put the number, be it 30% or 50% or 85% or 99.9%, the fact that cyanide destroys coral reefs means that its use is indefensible.
[/i]The exact percentage matters less.[/i]

........................

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN to the
"And regardless of where we put the number,
be it 30% or 50% or 85% or 99.9%,
the fact that cyanide destroys coral reefs means that its use is
INDEFENSIBLE."

Rather than nit-pick the %%%s , I think the "trade" will be well advised
to support MEANINGFUL measures to knock out cyanide abuse.

Hear! Hear!

 

[naesco]

No Mike Kirda, fish caught with cyanide die from cyanide poisoning.
Half of them die immediately and of the remaining, half die by the time they hit the beach.
Those that survive the transit time to the wholesaler online store and LFS are sold to unsuspecting reefers where they languish for a few months and die for no apparent reason.

Hi, Wayne.

You make the claim. Back it up. Where did you get your figures?
And how can you be sure that there are no cyanide caught fish that do survive past a few months and end up dying of old age in captivity?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

If my memory serves me right (I could be wrong), I read this information off of Mary's website before she destroyed the evidence. :wink:

 

[MaryHM]

I didn't "destroy" any evidence. I took some information off of my website because certain fanaticals were twisting it. I know that of the thousands of words I have typed on the subject that I have never made such incredibly high mortality rate claims. There may have been a link on my website to some other site that claimed that, but I personally never have. I have no doubt that there are plenty of fish that are caught with cyanide that live to a ripe old age. In fact, a major wholesaler who was a speaker at the first Marine Ornamental conference in Kona, HI stated that he was present when fish were collected with cyanide, that he took those fish back home with him, and that they had been healthy and happy for years in his personal tank. I worry far less about the effects of cyanide on individual fish than I do about the effects on the reef as a whole.

 

[naesco]

I didn't "destroy" any evidence. I took some information off of my website because certain fanaticals were twisting it. I know that of the thousands of words I have typed on the subject that I have never made such incredibly high mortality rate claims. There may have been a link on my website to some other site that claimed that, but I personally never have. I have no doubt that there are plenty of fish that are caught with cyanide that live to a ripe old age. In fact, a major wholesaler who was a speaker at the first Marine Ornamental conference in Kona, HI stated that he was present when fish were collected with cyanide, that he took those fish back home with him, and that they had been healthy and happy for years in his personal tank. I worry far less about the effects of cyanide on individual fish than I do about the effects on the reef as a whole.

I believe you are correct?
Can you post those links here please?
There was a wealth of information on cyanide on your site.