PI vs. Indo- Death Match Part 2!!

[clarionreef]

WHY YES,
I DID SPEAK TO FERDINAND, RUWI, LINO, RIZAL AND GAYATRI. THERE WERE ALSO OTHERS.
A ban is a notion that comes about when no one supports responsible efforts like the NET FUND.
IT WAS NOT ON ANYONES MIND AS A SPIRITUAL QUEST OR A WISE TACTIC. SOME OF US STILL BELIEVE IN WORKING FOR THE REAL CHANGES THAT SPARE CORAL WHEN COLLECTING.
The donation of nets for a 100 divers proved that there are people who care and ant change. That is good news to fisherman who need to work and not be sent into spearfishing and gillnet fishing to make ends meet.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Wayne,
Huh?
I'm sure that someone will tell you what went on since you are so well plugged in to what is happening. If you know that a closure is imminant...then thats news to the Philippine and Indonesian delegates I shared a hotel room with. Sounds like we need to listen more to you and not waste our time at conferences.
In the meanwhile...why not do something concrete and practical and buy a bundle of netting for the cause?
Steve

But Steve, Ferdinand was at MO 2004 and it was he who posted in this forum that times were achanging in the Philippines and that many supported a ban (almost 50%).
Did you have any discussions concerning this with Ferdinand?
Did you have any discussions concerning this with anyone?

you automatically assumed this was a major topic of discussion at a marine ornamentals conference whos main focus is on aquaculture techniques, and (minorly on) feasability of certification initiatives for aquacultured ornamentals?(my understanding from both the website, and the brochure)


why did you answer steve's questions w/2 of your own? :?

have you taken a look at the conferences' schedule yet? it's available for veiwing to the public on the internet, and hes been, since before the conference, iirc :wink:


that makes 3 questions, do i get 6 back? #'s 1&2 are rhetorical, btw

 

[naesco]

WHY YES,
I DID SPEAK TO FERDINAND, RUWI, LINO, RIZAL AND GAYATRI. THERE WERE ALSO OTHERS.
A ban is a notion that comes about when no one supports responsible efforts like the NET FUND.
IT WAS NOT ON ANYONES MIND AS A SPIRITUAL QUEST OR A WISE TACTIC. SOME OF US STILL BELIEVE IN WORKING FOR THE REAL CHANGES THAT SPARE CORAL WHEN COLLECTING.
The donation of nets for a 100 divers proved that there are people who care and ant change. That is good news to fisherman who need to work and not be sent into spearfishing and gillnet fishing to make ends meet.
Steve

Thanks Steve.
Did any of these fine Philipinos discuss the possibilities of an export ban with you?

 

[Jaime Baquero]

world wide.
Whom ever chooses.
Where's Yakarta?
No.
No - less variety, higher freight cost & PI has more endemeics that the trade demands.
Pretty obvious answer (hint: why does anyone declare making less money, to the government?).
No, exporters shipping a da-valued invoice are the only ones the benifit.
I doubt it, but I'm not up on other countries taxing protocals.
To your last question, I ask you this: is fraud rampant in Indo? Does the sun shine?

Do you think that Philippines and Indonesia are, still, suppliers of that famous number, 75%, of the trade world wide?

Does an importer of marine ornamentals fish/invertebrates have to pay taxes when getting his/her shipment ? I know in Canada they do, GST 7% of the value of the shipment.

If an exporter from the Philippines sends a shipment to the U.S with a false invoice, lets say $US1,000, (real value of fish is $US2,000) what is the value the U.S importer declares? Does the U.S. impoter get a $ benefit from this false invoice?

This illegal practice of false invoicing is well known. This is a very serious offence. An important sector of this industry is not only ripping off the coral reef ecosystem and exploiting poor fish collectors, but also ripping off the system by avoiding taxes..

The economic value of coral reefs has been ignored for decades. To the problems that we already know, collection, handling, holding, shipping, acclimating, mortality, etc.. at each level of the trade, we have to add to the list the fraudulent practices from stakeholders. By providing false information about the real value of shipments those stakeholders are providing radical groups with more ammunition to close down the trade.

I understand why the government of the Philippines doesn't consider to put time and energy to tackle many of the problems the trade has over there. Stakeholders have been ripping off the system for so long that would be easier and better to end with it.

If we know about it what we must do? By being silent we become accomplices of this fraudulent operation. How is getting benefit from this non sense?

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Sorry for the mistake.

My last question is: Who is getting benefit from this non sense?

 

[clarionreef]

Wayne,
As Bali is forging ahead with mobs of organized fisherman who know what is needed...the idea of a ban was not discussed.
EASI's director Dante Dalaban was denied a visa and unable to attend. Ferdie Cruz was the EASI representative and cme to work out what the Bali divers already have...training and net supply that makes sense. With that may come a better bargaining position to negotiate better deals for the fisherman.
5 days of talking to Ferdie reveals a mission not angry at the trade so much as the would be saviours of it who feather their own nests and play the flute while it burns and time to get it right is squandered.
The glacial pace of MAC, the loss of their own little supply line to China, the non provision of professional training and nets has been coming to a head and only the whitest and most removed people seem to believe in them anymore.
For EASI and TELAPAK representatives to see the shallowness of the markets representatives was interesting. They observed that some were more interested in mining the last 'interesting' fishes in depleted areas...then saving those areas. They saw for themselves that these posh venues are focused on loftier concerns and that the MAC mission is more of a coverup of the bigger interests in the trade.
This thing is increasingly going to line up across the cultural divide of Asian reformers vs. corporate, out of touch white reformers and their paid, city based country representatives.
Increasingly we're going to see people in country stand up for themselves. Not all are for sale or rent and they are where the exciting developments will come from. Independant Filipino and Indonesian players can see now that kissing 'white ass' was good for job security with American based NGOs....but did not serve the fishermans, nor the coral reefs interest.
A controlled definition of the issue is out of the bag now...and won't go back.
Mike King said it best once...."no training....no peace."
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

jaime wrote:

If an exporter from the Philippines sends a shipment to the U.S with a false invoice, lets say $US1,000, (real value of fish is $US2,000) what is the value the U.S importer declares? Does the U.S. impoter get a $ benefit from this false invoice?

i'm not sure that anyone on this side is either in collusion, or necessarily even aware of the 'foidleshtick' that the exporters are/may be engageing in, jaime

though they may be unwittingly benefiting from the decreased declared value, in terms of paying less than what they would on a properly declared invoice-for all they know they aren't

i'm not sure if they're guilty, of anything connected to 'tax evasion' if the scenario is as i hypothesized above-i'd think it's an issue that would need to be dealt with at the point of origin

i'm not positive that the revenue loss from the supply side would justify the decrease in taxes if in fact the invoices are 'foidleshticked', in terms of total revenue

just hypothesizing 'out loud'

 

[kylen]

It has happened in Canada, and probably still does. I 've had exporters ask me if I want a lower value invoice for customs clearance because they do it for others. Taxes are paid at time of clearance and those importers who practice this feel that they are saving on paying some tax. What they don't realize is that at the end of the day, they still pay the same, based on this particular tax.

 

[clarionreef]

All,
Since the invoices originate in the country of origin...its a non issue on this side vis a vis taxes, chicanery etc. US imports are duty free which is why even fish and wildlife know and dismiss this stuff.
The pro-froma is a flight invoice for the purposes of clearing fish at the airport. The actual one is emailed over later.
The funny part is when import siders actually take the declarations seriously like the reports gathered by Ed Green for MAC and other asundry uses.
Imagine basing import statistics for the past 30 years on this kind of math!
Oh well...its just another one put over on us by the Manila consortium of exporters.
Any alarm or sense of betrayal could be registered to the head of the association of these exporters.
Lolita Ty of Aquascapes would be happy to hear from you for sure.
So...if invoices are falsely declared all this time to export and import on...what else might also be...uummmm....misdeclared or mis-written?
Can you say ...cough...CAMP...species surveys...cough....DOA figures for the purpose of certification?
So figures lie and liars figure. The revelation is... er new??
Relax gago...nothing new here.
Steve

 

[MaryHM]

Do you think that Philippines and Indonesia are, still, suppliers of that famous number, 75%, of the trade world wide?

My guess?? Yes. Where else is everything coming from? No other country has the variety of fish the Philippines has or the variety of coral Indonesia has.

Does an importer of marine ornamentals fish/invertebrates have to pay taxes when getting his/her shipment ? I know in Canada they do, GST 7% of the value of the shipment.

No taxes on imports here in the US. So your attempt to find some huge conspiracy on this side of the ocean is useless.

If an exporter from the Philippines sends a shipment to the U.S with a false invoice, lets say $US1,000, (real value of fish is $US2,000) what is the value the U.S importer declares? Does the U.S. impoter get a $ benefit from this false invoice?

The importer declares whatever is on the invoice that is sent with the shipment. And no, a US importer would get absolutely no benefit from a false invoice at time of importation.

This illegal practice of false invoicing is well known. This is a very serious offence. An important sector of this industry is not only ripping off the coral reef ecosystem and exploiting poor fish collectors, but also ripping off the system by avoiding taxes..

The economic value of coral reefs has been ignored for decades. To the problems that we already know, collection, handling, holding, shipping, acclimating, mortality, etc.. at each level of the trade, we have to add to the list the fraudulent practices from stakeholders. By providing false information about the real value of shipments those stakeholders are providing radical groups with more ammunition to close down the trade.

I understand why the government of the Philippines doesn't consider to put time and energy to tackle many of the problems the trade has over there. Stakeholders have been ripping off the system for so long that would be easier and better to end with it.

If we know about it what we must do? By being silent we become accomplices of this fraudulent operation. How is getting benefit from this non sense?

Well, if you want to pin the tax tail on the donkey, pin it on Canada. Apparently they pay an import duty. We here in the good ole US of A don't. And sheesh Jaime, don't we have more important things to worry about that someone somewhere ripping off the tax system either in the Philippines or Indonesia or Canada?? Priorities, my friend...priorities. In my experience, I have never received an invoice with a shipment that didn't match the invoice faxed/emailed over to me for payment purposes. I have also never received an invoice that didn't match the stocklist prices. And even if I ever did it wouldn't matter to the import duty tax man, since I don't pay an import duty.

 

[clarionreef]

To lower invoice duties in Canada...
false invoices would make sense...not here.
Gotta watch those Canadians!
Steve

 

[Jaime Baquero]

The fact is that the industry, and those who are feeling the heat, are as responsible as those exporters in the Philippines maintaining this wrong doing for decades. All of those covering it are accomplices.

Saying that "since invoices originate in the country of origin" is not an issue on this side. Would be the same that saying "since cyanide is used in the Philippines" is not an issue on this side. Both actions are wrong doing!

All those years of false declarations have contributed to present wrong numbers about the real value of the trade and its importance as a source of revenue for the country.

In Canada imports of MO are duty free, but importers have to pay a tax 7%

 

[MaryHM]

The fact is that the industry, and those who are feeling the heat, are as responsible as those exporters in the Philippines maintaining this wrong doing for decades. All of those covering it are accomplices.

Saying that "since invoices originate in the country of origin" is not an issue on this side. Would be the same that saying "since cyanide is used in the Philippines" is not an issue on this side. Both actions are wrong doing!

Jaime, please tell me how I am responsible for some exporter that doesn't even sell to me lowering his invoices to some country I don't even import in to?? What is your point here exactly, because I'm missing it.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Mary,

Those false invoices do not help to show the Filipino government the real economic importance that the trade has for coastal communities. That my friend is a priority. The idea the government has is that this trade doesn't benefit the country's economy, it's just a problem.

 

[MaryHM]

So who is doing this? Which exporters are falsifying invoices? It's not any of the three I've dealt with in the Philippines or any of the 4 I've dealt with in Indonesia.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

The fact is that the industry, and those who are feeling the heat, are as responsible as those exporters in the Philippines maintaining this wrong doing for decades. All of those covering it are accomplices.

Saying that "since invoices originate in the country of origin" is not an issue on this side. Would be the same that saying "since cyanide is used in the Philippines" is not an issue on this side. Both actions are wrong doing!

Jaime, please tell me how I am responsible for some exporter that doesn't even sell to me lowering his invoices to some country I don't even import in to?? What is your point here exactly, because I'm missing it.

Mary,

Seems that there are importers in the U.S. getting considerable volumens of fish in regular basis. False invoicing doesn't contribute to give the real value to the coral reefs from where those fish are coming from. If you know that importer X is getting fish from exporter Y you should speak loud and clear denouncing such a practice. If you don't, you are accomplice. It should be denounced the same way the use of cyanide has been denounced for years.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

So who is doing this? Which exporters are falsifying invoices? It's not any of the three I've dealt with in the Philippines or any of the 4 I've dealt with in Indonesia.

Importers in the U.S. know it. I am sure Steve and GrehsmanH know who does it. Why they are not denounced publicly? Go GreshamH go!

 

[kylen]

Using false invoices at time of clearance in Canada only delays the inevitible. Pay now...pay later...it's all the same. If some importers feel good about, let them. Oh ya...one of the suppliers that offered a false invoice was an American company.

 

[mkirda]

I've never heard of anyone doing this, so I can't comment. Anyone else know about this?

Mary,

Yes, I have heard of it happening. Having been in import/export for 8 years, I saw evidence of it firsthand, although not very often, and I don't recall exact details (i.e. company names or amounts) anymore.

The gist would be that there are two invoices, one for customs, one for the actual payment. The difference would be rather large, usually 50% or so, so that the customer would save on import taxes by mis-declaring the actual value. Think of the taxes you would save buying that BMW for $10,000 instead of $50,000. Depending on the tariff rate, some people do try to cheat a bit.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

Its mesmerizing isnt it!

Yeah. Just as fascinating as maggots crawling through roadkill.