PI vs. Indo- Death Match Part 2!!

[MaryHM]

Jaime,

It was wrong of us to highjack poor Terry's thread- especially since it was his first in here. So we can move the discussion over here if you'd like. Ok, here was your last post:

Mary,

Yes, I do not know if importers in the U.S prefer to get fish from Indonesia or the Philippines. I do not see anything wrong with that. I haven't said anywhere in this forum that I know everything about the trade of MO. I know, because I read, that the Philippines and Indonesia are the main suppliers of MO. I also read that a considerable amount of fish is getting out of the Philippines and Indonesia to international markets VIA Singapore. This to avoid the cyanide issue.

Since you know about the importing business more than many of the readers here, including me,I would like to know from you, or anybody else the following important aspect. Do you know the % of fish, from the Philippines and Indonesia, coming to the U.S. VIA Singapore.

The numbers that I got, as GreshamH said are not real, you should also know that many importers in the U.S. and Exporters in the Phil. and Indo. are ripping off the tax sytem by making false declarations about the value of the marine ornamentals imported.

Mary, the exercise that you did with the different prices of corals and units can not be considered as real. You know very well that the total values given by the U.S . Bureau of Commerce are not the real ones. Some, exporters/importers are NOT declaring the real value of the goods to the tax man.

I wonder.... why it is a concern the use of cyanide in Indonesia?

Mary, is possible that there are some aspects that no one knows. Those knowing it, do not want to jeopardize their business operations.

I found your reaction.....let's say ... a bit exagerated. But I know you are a good person who wants to improve things. If you said something that is not 100% true, I wouldn't exagerate things saying that it make me lose respect of you. That sounds... how would you say it.... I guess is childish.

One subject that I know for sure is what is happening with collectors in the Philippines, and how fish are handled and held at community level. Poor fish!

Let me start by saying that after trudging through as much of Kalk's crap as I can stand, I am a little edgy when I see people skewing statistics and making ardent statements based on misinterpretations or half interpretations.

I also read that a considerable amount of fish is getting out of the Philippines and Indonesia to international markets VIA Singapore. This to avoid the cyanide issue.

Yes, PI and Indo are the main supplier for the marine trade. I'm not sure what you mean about fish coming in via Singapore to avoid the cyanide issue. I assume you mean suppliers in PI and Indo are shipping fish to suppliers in Singapore, who unpack the fish and then reship them as Singapore fish. I don't know why anyone would do this- especially to avoid the cyanide issue. Seriously Jaime, importers don't care about cyanide caught fish. And they aren't going to avoid PI and Indo and buy from Singapore because they're afraid of it. If they cared, we wouldn't have a cyanide problem and those 2 countries wouldn't be the largest exporters. So basically I don't know of this happening (although I wouldn't doubt it may happen), so I don't have any stats on it. I doubt any exist. Where did you read that this is happening?

The numbers that I got, as GreshamH said are not real, you should also know that many importers in the U.S. and Exporters in the Phil. and Indo. are ripping off the tax sytem by making false declarations about the value of the marine ornamentals imported.

I have worked for 3 major wholesalers and have never seen anyone rip off the tax system by not declaring the real value. Seems like a lot of hassle. I've never heard of anyone doing this, so I can't comment. Anyone else know about this?

Mary, the exercise that you did with the different prices of corals and units can not be considered as real. You know very well that the total values given by the U.S . Bureau of Commerce are not the real ones. Some, exporters/importers are NOT declaring the real value of the goods to the tax man.

Well, since my numbers were solely based on your numbers and you made definitive statements based on those numbers, then I guess your statements can't be considered real either. And I agree! That's why I'm saying quit basing arguments on statistics that either aren't real or are twisted to mean something they don't. It's frustrating.

I wonder.... why it is a concern the use of cyanide in Indonesia?

Well, I think because cyanide use anywhere should be a concern. And from everything I've heard, Indonesia's problem is worse than PI's.

I found your reaction.....let's say ... a bit exagerated. But I know you are a good person who wants to improve things. If you said something that is not 100% true, I wouldn't exagerate things saying that it make me lose respect of you. That sounds... how would you say it.... I guess is childish.

And I found your statement that Indonesia is exporting more fish than the Philippines to be "a bit exagerated". Like I said, I'm sick of people skewing statistics. If I say something that isn't 100% true, have it pointed out to me, and don't correct myself and/or apologize then I would fully expect you to lose respect of me. If not respecting sensationalists is childish, then hand me my teddy bear- I need a nap.

 

[naesco]

I guess you started this thread cause you are sitting on pins and needles awaiting the outcome of the deliberations at MO 2004, eh!

 

[naesco]

The Canadiens defeated the Coyotes tonight.

 

[naesco]

They are hockey teams!

 

[Anonymous]

I guess you started this thread cause you are sitting on pins and needles awaiting the outcome of the deliberations at MO 2004, eh!

I think she started it for the same reason I posted:

Like I said, I'm sick of people skewing statistics.

Lumping all MO exports, including freshwater, into 1 figure, and comparing it to another country that doesn't ship any coral doesn't show anything, other then a google search.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Perhaps its the fact that a company named "Singapore Airlines" brings in a lot of the PI fish to America that Jamie thinks the fish are traveling to Singapore on their way here? . "Korean Air" also brings in a lot of fish from PI to the USA.....But the fish never travel to Korea. ................................"Trudging through Kalk Crap"? Mary! Just cant keep your Eyes off of my writings can you? How many Hours a week do you spend reading all the things you wish you could say.......................... but let me say it instead? Its mesmerizing isnt it!

 

[clarionreef]

Fact one;
The Philippines exports WAY MORE FISH fish then Indonesia.
WAY MORE... AND THATS MOSTLY FROM BALI AS JAKARTA HAS POOR QUALITY, OVER-PACKED FISH.
Indo coral is what weighs heavy on their export declarations.
Many exporters from Philippines ship under de-valued invoices. Importers have nothing to do with it.
Singapore airlines is merely one carrier and Singapore only one transit point out of many. Tokyo, Seoul, Taipei, Hong Kong are even more common then Singapore airlines with exporters as Singapore Air is the most expensive of all of them.
All the 'speculations' are of well known things already.
Steve

 

[MaryHM]

Yeah, Naesco. I was on such pins and needles that I had actually forgotten about the conference and called to talk to Steve at his warehouse on Monday. Had a nice conversation with Gresham though! I've been to the last 2 (first 2) of these conferences where nothing happened. Wasn't going to waste my time and money on a third.

Kalk, I usually quit reading your stuff after about page 2 of a thread. Everything that is said is usually said there and it's a waste of time to continue reading to page 6 just to see pages 1 and 2 rehashed ad nauseum.

Ding, Ding, Ding!! Gresham wins the prize for figuring out why I started this thread. You can have my above mentioned teddy bear!!

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Fact one;
The Philippines exports WAY MORE FISH fish then Indonesia.
WAY MORE... AND THATS MOSTLY FROM BALI AS JAKARTA HAS POOR QUALITY, OVER-PACKED FISH.
Indo coral is what weighs heavy on their export declarations.
Many exporters from Philippines ship under de-valued invoices. Importers have nothing to do with it.
Singapore airlines is merely one carrier and Singapore only one transit point out of many. Tokyo, Seoul, Taipei, Hong Kong are even more common then Singapore airlines with exporters as Singapore Air is the most expensive of all of them.
All the 'speculations' are of well known things already.
Steve[/qu

Steve,

To clarify a bit more, when you say, Indonesia export less fish than the Philippines , you mean world wide, or only to the U.S. Who is buying the bad quality, over-packed fish from Yakarta? I know one in Montreal.

During Aquarama 1999 I met exporters in Singapore offering MO from Philippines and Indonesia. It is possible they're shipping most of the fish to Europe. During that Aquarama I met people in the business coming from Europe..

Are fish from Indonesia cheaper than the ones from the Philippines?

Could you tell us why exporters in the Philippines ship under de-valued invoices? Does it means that importers, in the U.S. pay less taxes when importing the fish/invertebrates? Do you think it is a legal practice?

Is it possible that this fraudulent operation is happening with invoices coming from Indonesia?

 

[Anonymous]

world wide.
Whom ever chooses.
Where's Yakarta?
No.
No - less variety, higher freight cost & PI has more endemeics that the trade demands.
Pretty obvious answer (hint: why does anyone declare making less money, to the government?).
No, exporters shipping a da-valued invoice are the only ones the benifit.
I doubt it, but I'm not up on other countries taxing protocals.
To your last question, I ask you this: is fraud rampant in Indo? Does the sun shine?

 

[Anonymous]

I guess you started this thread cause you are sitting on pins and needles awaiting the outcome of the deliberations at MO 2004, eh!

you are aware that it was for the most part an aquaculture conference, yes?

 

[naesco]

I guess you started this thread cause you are sitting on pins and needles awaiting the outcome of the deliberations at MO 2004, eh!

you are aware that it was for the most part an aquaculture conference, yes?

I am anxiously awaiting the details of the plan industry has adopted to deal with the imminent closure of the Phlippine marine resource.

 

[Anonymous]

I guess you started this thread cause you are sitting on pins and needles awaiting the outcome of the deliberations at MO 2004, eh!

you are aware that it was for the most part an aquaculture conference, yes?

I am anxiously awaiting the details of the plan industry has adopted to deal with the imminent closure of the Phlippine marine resource.

did you see any indication on the meeting schedule that that was a subject at the aquaculture conference, or that such a plan was going to be announced there?

it's available on the net in pdf., btw

 

[clarionreef]

Wayne,
Huh?
I'm sure that someone will tell you what went on since you are so well plugged in to what is happening. If you know that a closure is imminant...then thats news to the Philippine and Indonesian delegates I shared a hotel room with. Sounds like we need to listen more to you and not waste our time at conferences.
In the meanwhile...why not do something concrete and practical and buy a bundle of netting for the cause?
Steve

 

[Terra Ferma]

I have worked for 3 major wholesalers and have never seen anyone rip off the tax system by not declaring the real value. Seems like a lot of hassle. I've never heard of anyone doing this, so I can't comment. Anyone else know about this?

Mary,

As I am sure you know, clearing a shipment of declared value greater than 2000 USD is a bit more of a hassle than clearing a shipment of value less than 2000 USD. However, the declared value reported to F&G has nothing to do with taxes (at least not in this country, and I assume not in Indo or PI either)! At worst, it underestimates our trade deficit with the respective nations by an inconsequential amount. Perhaps the person concerned about this misinterpreted said behavior.

It is very hard to estimate the actual economic value of a livestock shipment to seller or buyer as DOAs can mess things up pretty bad for both sides.

 

[Anonymous]

Steve

Can the bundles be sent to fisherfolks in PI as well? Or is this strictly a Bali project?

 

[MaryHM]

As I am sure you know, clearing a shipment of declared value greater than 2000 USD is a bit more of a hassle than clearing a shipment of value less than 2000 USD.

I clear shipments over and under $2000 on a weekly basis. There is never a difference in the clearance process. Have you experienced something different?

I agree with everything else you said.

 

[clarionreef]

Mary,
The densest collection of collectors anywhere right now is Northern Bali...and thats where the fisherman are organized to collect, hold and export their own fish directly. The impact of this conversion has not gone unnoticed as the exporters used to get fish from these guys.
If there is to be a training program in the Philippines, then the need for the netting becomes critical there also...but, since there was no breakthru with MAC and EASI about training there it appears that Bali remains centerstage in the bonafide training movement.
MAC seems to be withdrawing as predicted to the safer areas of Fiji, Hawaii and the aquaculture industry to put their stamp on existing netcaught supply. Failing, withdrawing and abandoning the Philippines is a shocking albiet unnoticed development.
The 'cause', if you'll remember was anchored and based on the conversion of cyanide fisherman in S. E. Asia and cleaning up our image and making it sustainable there. The USCRTF scare two years ago was not based on "Cleaning up Hawaii or else!" It was based on the shame of the trade in Philippines and Indo.
Since then the net result of a great deal of time and money spent has been the much ballyhooed conversion of two little villages next to each other in Buhol. That small achievement was to be the entry point....a small step towards more. Spring of the year 2004 approaches and the failure to develop more certified supply beyond planning stages has been alarming.
The few boxes of certified fish 4-6 boxes a week coming from Buhol are now not even going to America! They are not routed even thru certified exporters [ to the chagrin of the one or two exporters that are certified] !
In fact these few precious fish are routinely intercepted by a non certified shipper in Cebu and are being exported from there to China!
So...there you have it. Need for more netting in the Philippines for Philippine training? The NoGO activity in the Philippines has made the need to sub-contract out to competent others a desperate need...seen by everyone but MAC leadership.
I had hoped that EASI and them would've worked out something but the meeting they had went South and ended badly.
So....the netting supply for now is needed and was asked for where NGO politicians are not blocking it. The fishermans association in Northern Bali wanted it badly...and we supplied it right away.
The AMDA NET FUND has defined the issue of net supply, what kind of netting and where to get it. It has sent it to where it was needed most...to a hundred divers refusing to go back to cyanide in a critical area.
The fund is seperate from AMDAs fund and needs a few more bundles [$800.] as soon as possible to supply another 90 divers still waiting for it.
No matter what happens later...the "appearance" of the right netting proves to the divers what a difference is possible... from the green nets, the white nets, the brown nets, the gill nets and the spider web delicate nets that were supplied to them from non aquarium savy NGOs.
For a decade Philippine divers asked for the right nets and were denied by the group in charge at the time....Bali asked and were supplied right away. AMDA was happy to help. If we had not...the netting would have not gone forth and the divers would be asked to stop cyanide without an appropriate alternative...as were two thousand divers in the Philippines over the years. That syndrome had to stop.
Like smuggling Bibles to China...AMDA will supply divers in need if the NGOs profiting from them refuse to.
Sincerely, Steve Robinson
AMDA pres

 

[clarionreef]

Dear Certifed dealers in America,
Are you still waiting for certified fish from the Philippines to go with your certification certificate? Your wall poster and your 'responsible business ethic?'
Stop holding your breath. The fish are mostly going to China...intercepted by an Australian /Filipino exporter who...well intercepts them from the so called 'chain of custody.'
"Ya'll got served. Ya got played. Ya got your head shook and your money took!"
Sorry...tried to warn ya.
You get the letter of commitment, the certificates, the paper theory, the daisy chain of custody rap and the warm feeling of 'doing the right thing' no matter how token and small it was...and they...they get the fish! :lol:
Steve

 

[naesco]

Wayne,
Huh?
I'm sure that someone will tell you what went on since you are so well plugged in to what is happening. If you know that a closure is imminant...then thats news to the Philippine and Indonesian delegates I shared a hotel room with. Sounds like we need to listen more to you and not waste our time at conferences.
In the meanwhile...why not do something concrete and practical and buy a bundle of netting for the cause?
Steve

But Steve, Ferdinand was at MO 2004 and it was he who posted in this forum that times were achanging in the Philippines and that many supported a ban (almost 50%).
Did you have any discussions concerning this with Ferdinand?
Did you have any discussions concerning this with anyone?