MAC's full page ad in FAMA

[MaryHM]

Check out the January 2004 issue. Full page ad. MAC says their fish are "strictly net caught". In order to make such a public claim attached to their certification program, I assume this means that they finally have implemented the use of cyanide testing. John, can you confirm this?

 

[jamesw]

???? 8O

You say in print that your fish are net caught too don't you? Do you have a certification and cyanide testing program for your exporters?

Cheers
James

 

[MaryHM]

James,

How many times do I have to explain the same thing to you? I have not created an independent certification program. I have not created a set of standards. I do not say my fish are strictly net caught. This is not about me. Nice tactic you've learned there though to try to diffuse the situation. The topic is MAC. You know the organization that has created an independent certification program, has created a set of standards, and is saying their fish are strictly net caught. Also the organization that promised a test was on its way. Why are you so against MAC having a cyanide test in place? Or are you just against me asking if they have a test in place. Every time I ask a question about MAC here, no matter how benign, it turns into some personal attack back on to me and my business. Thank you for reminding me why I do not sponsor this board.

 

[clarionreef]

What fish?
MAC has produced so few fish for so much time, money,and effort spent as to warrant an audit.
Certifying such a paucity of product should be a simple task since there are so few fish or divers in question to deal with.
All of us... in all of our jobs would've been fired long ago for such non-performance.
So its 2004 already...and still there are only 2-3 depleted areas certified.
Well...if we can't rally around the reality of the situation, if we can't point to more than a few dozen divers 'trained' or any fish to speak of hitting the marketplace...at least we can worship the 'concept and theory of certification'.
I agree James. 'CERTIFICATION' is a worthy word and a noble concept. At some point you yourself must admit that verbage and hype alone cannot carry this movement forever. Those of us who actually want and need netcaught fish find nothing in MAC that we didn't already have.
Sincerely, Steve
ps. I would trust Marys netcaught fish supply over MACs admitedly mixed supply any day. All the certified MAC dealers are mixing in cyanide fish as before and enjoying full varieties without sacrifice. She is doing without this variety unless they are netcaught.

 

[MaryHM]

FYI: Here is where MAC promised cyanide testing.

http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=32794

It's been 6 months. I saw the ad, I thought they must have finally followed through on their promises. I was just checking. I wasn't looking for yet another attempted jab at me and my business. Although I should have learned by now that that's the only way the MAC supporters seem to be able to respond to me.

 

[MaryHM]

Steve,

Just for public information, as stated on my website I am not able to bring in fish from my very trusted net caught suppliers right now. The person I was splitting shipments with basically quit paying me and I can't afford to bring in direct PI shipments myself- I simply don't have space for 15-20 boxes of fish. So I was faced with the decision of shutting down the fish room completely or buying from other suppliers. Hopefully I'll find someone to split shipments with in the future and can go back to my net caught suppliers that Ferdinand recommends. Until then, I freely admit I have mixed fish. I have always separated out net caught from PI fill in suppliers on my stock list in the interest of truth, and still do. I also freely point this out on SeaCrop. See, unlike some of the organizaitons and companies out there, I tell the truth about my fish. When I believe they're net caught, I say so. When I'm not sure, I say so. It's called the TRUTH. Something that unfortunately isn't required nor expected from many. And something that isn't respected when given.

 

[blue hula]

FYI: Here is where MAC promised cyanide testing.

http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=32794

It's been 6 months. I saw the ad, I thought they must have finally followed through on their promises. I was just checking. I wasn't looking for yet another attempted jab at me and my business. Although I should have learned by now that that's the only way the MAC supporters seem to be able to respond to me.

Mary, I'm very sorry that every time you provide factual information, you get zinged.

James,

I had a recent look at Mary's website where she has a note indicating that she has had to change suppliers in the Philippines. She indicates that she is fairly confident about the new supply in terms of being healthy but is nevertheless advising people that there has been a change. This allows people to make their own assessment of the situation.

And this level of transparency despite the fact that she is a private business making no public certification claims.

Would we have such transparency from MAC ? If so, we'd see ads something like:

"well, we still haven't got a cyanide test in place and we haven't done any of the resource assessments ... oh yeah, and we continue to expand the trade into areas where it hasn't existed before so that we can maybe get some supply to feed the monster we've created (certified shops clamoring for our clean and green fish) ... but please be patient ... we're a work in progress and we're getting there"

I wish.

I have emailed MAC and Paul yet again to ask about whether the supposed sustainably managed collection area in Batasan has had any of the work done ... you got it ... RESOUNDING SILENCE yet they persist with advertising the great job they have done.

As an industry organisation making public claims (and taking money from people for their certification program), I think it reasonable to expect them to provide information on what exactly the certification has meant in terms of work on the ground and the fish that are being supplied.

Why is that such a big ask?

Blue hula

 

[blue hula]

oops - I see Mary has just made the point herself whilst I was toning down my response on MAC ...

well, let's hope we see some advertising from MAC that reflects reality

 

[MaryHM]

Blue Hula,

Thank you for the independent confirmation on what my website says about my recent change in PI suppliers. Otherwise James and company would probably accuse me of putting it up 5 minutes ago because of this thread.

James,
I would really like to see you, for once, reply to me about your accusations against my company. You have a habit of coming in here, making a jab, and then disappearing. Got the conviction to answer to what Blue Hula and I are saying, or are you just here merely to try to intimidate me out of posting MAC questions? For the record, I don't get intimidated easily, especially by the pathetic attempts from some on this board.

 

[mkirda]

Mary, I'm very sorry that every time you provide factual information, you get zinged.

{snip}
Would we have such transparency from MAC ?

Ditto.

James,

There is so much that goes on that never makes the board.
Sometimes I'm torn between revealing it and leaving it be.

It will be interesting to see how they approach the Philippines as the supply from other areas which are all already 100% net-caught comes on-line. Will they cut and run? Or will they stay the course?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

After IMAC Chicago,
When the peace and training plan was agreed upon and all was rosey...James was read to say...."All we are saying, is give Mac a chance!"...
Well, the 1,000 man training deal from CORL was pulled out of [unilaterally] by MAC and the proposal died in the hands of the country coordinator at the orders from above. Thus ended the chance for a field solution and accelerated was the search for a paper one.
It isn't time that makes things better. Its the team...
There is no team. No biologist on staff out there doing surveys and no commercial expertise working with divers. Just what are we waiting for?
We have a field team alledgedly doing the job you think. Such a leap of faith! Such incredible naivite!
Time does not produce progress by itself and especially in work that is so easy to do IF you have any kind of team even remotely qualified to do the work. That does not exist. If you have been led to believe that it does....then you have been lied to.
I know the MAC field team. It is not a field team...it is an information office and run by office people. Don't hold your breath. There will be no certifications worthy of the concept. There will however, be paper...lots of paper.
Steve

 

[clarionreef]

Mike,
I feel your pain in the reluctance to reveal the things that don't add up with this pseudo aquarium reform group.
To soft peddle it...may I suggest using limericks?
For example...


At first they said the sky was falling...
Then... pleas for time and stalling, stalling
but another year has come and gone
without results to stand upon...
But look, here comes the CIA
for rebels trained, theres cash to pay

Then Buhols depleted zone...
The lack of fish there was well known,
They certified it anyway
w/ documents hidden from light of day

Nor will there be a CDT
But at least we'll see fish from Fiji
certifying fish already clean
while retreating from the Philippines

Why not just train and stop these ploys
and PINK-SLIP all those office boys
this industry will not get fixed
by substituting deeds with tricks

But 'fixing us' was not the plan
this smells like some kind of scam
concocted by somebody else
who thinks he knows whats best himself

The seafood trade, not our fish biz
you know...where much more money is
but far afield fish kept alive
don't lend themselves to this kind of jive

Our fish come from a thousand towns
which cannot be changed from the "top down"...
in search of the simplicity
that Packard wants it all to be...

This can't be solved thru endless feigning
But only thru real divers training
with actual nets the Aussies use
Anything less will not stay true

Steve

 

[JeremyR]

I've never understood why james has his head so far up MAC's butt. Ideals are wonderful things, but we live in the real world. If your dog takes a big crap on your livingroom floor.. you can spray all the lysol in the room you want to, but in the end it's still gonna stink till you clean up the mess.

 

[Ad van Tage]

So are you suggesting that MAC is a pseudonym for DOGPILE?

I actually find THE Dogpile useful! Especially when trying to find info on "reefs and cyanide"

See http://www.dogpile.com/

Where I run into trouble is when I look for "limerick & cyanide"

I mean who needs to read about:
"ABOUT 80 spools of pure gold wire are missing from the safe in the EI factory at Shannon, in addition to the 21 containers of the deadly poison gold potassium cyanide."

I didn't know that they were fishing for ornamentals in Ireland!!!


So long, Ad

 

[Ad van Tage]

Mike,
I feel your pain in the reluctance to reveal the things that don't add up with this pseudo aquarium reform group.
To soft peddle it...may I suggest using limericks?
Steve

Let me try:

Ode to Gaia, Uranus, Pontus...


I know it is the season to be jolly,
even as we point out MAC's folly,
the folly of segregated certification,
announced with such elation...

We certify left,
we certify right,
we are so deft,
but not too bright...

We certify the fisher,
but here's the fissure,
he is not connected,
to anyone protected...

by yet another certificate.
For the exporter
will pontificate,
that he is not a supporter...

of fishers who run and hide
from his stock of cyanide,
but use soft silken nets,
to improve their bets...

on a future sans cyanide.
To hell with Monsanta and Taiwan
these fishers will catch the fish they can
on the sustainable side...


:arrow: © Ad aka Ecoworrier

 

[Kalkbreath]

I know I asked this question before , and no one had the balls to reply ............but lets say testing of MAC fish began...........What if 1% of the fish came back for cyanide? Despite the best efforts of their reeform....... Would you all ? Or would you not jump down the Backs of "CERTIFIED" exporters ? What if MaC realizes that 100% is impossible? What options do you give them.......Having MAC walk away from the Philippines ........is hardly in the best interests of the reefs ............but you may leave them no other choice.............? You will have won the battle but lost the cause........

 

[MaryHM]

Kalk, your question HAS been answered before. Maybe you just don't have the brains to comprehend it. No one expects fish to come out 100% clean all of the time. There is no scientific process that gets 100% 100% of the time. Cyanide testing is a science, and it is imperfect. But it is a start and at least it's better than the nothing MAC has in place now.

 

[mkirda]

I know I asked this question before , and no one had the balls to reply

Kalk,

untrue. {again}

A bunch of people had the balls to reply.
Unfortunately, none of them were from MAC, which is where your question would best be directed.

I know that they are aware of the question.
I've also been told that they wish it would go away.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

I know I asked this question before , and no one had the balls to reply

Kalk,

untrue. {again}

A bunch of people had the balls to reply.
Unfortunately, none of them were from MAC, which is where your question would best be directed.

I know that they are aware of the question.
I've also been told that they wish it would go away.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

And what percent did you state as being an acceptable amount?

 

[Kalkbreath]

Kalk, your question HAS been answered before. Maybe you just don't have the brains to comprehend it. No one expects fish to come out 100% clean all of the time. There is no scientific process that gets 100% 100% of the time. Cyanide testing is a science, and it is imperfect. But it is a start and at least it's better than the nothing MAC has in place now.

And what percent did you state as being acceptable?