MAC's full page ad in FAMA

[Kalkbreath]

First of all, they are shipping fish and have been for months. Not that many and not a big variety, but certified fish are moving through the chain.

My expectations as far as a time line goes are simple. Have the infrastructure in place BEFORE certification is in place. Have the trainings, the nets, the supply, etc... finished and then move on to certification. I don't care how long it takes, just as long as some type of progress is being made. However, as my avatar shows, MAC has put the cart before the horse. They push certification and push it hard- this latest FAMA ad being a good example- but don't have the infrastructure in place yet. That is my gripe with MAC. Pretty simple.

You cant have the certified collectors standing around for months until every last detail has been worked out .before they start fishing.....They will go fish for someone else.........Its a building process.........it takes momentum......

 

[MaryHM]

Who asked them to stop fishing?? I'm just saying don't advertise a program as basically complete when it is so full of holes I could use it as a seine! It's much worse to advertise the virtues of certification when the standards and MAC's own promises aren't even in place yet. I've said it 10,000 times to MAC- WHAT IS WRONG WITH CREATING A PILOT PROGRAM???? That's where you get all the kinks worked out. And once the pilot program runs smoothly, you announce to the world that you finally have a viable solution.

 

[Kalkbreath]

What would you have them sell the product as? " Partially Certified? .........Are you selling your untested net caught fish as ........."Mary's Almost Totally Net Caught? {.Or MATNC for short} :lol: YOu dont title your fish as less then 100 percent net collected for the same reason they cant do it and sell the fish ..........It highlights the less then perfect product!........ You keep avoiding the issue in question, as to why MAC doesn't have more fish to sell today? If they were really out to deceive the public with juice collected fish ......... dont you think they would be shipping a lot more fish ? It sure seems like the fact that they dont have much product is because they are doing something different then the other twenty plus companies.....................perhaps its that they are only net fishing and keeping fishing pressures light .....that they dont have much product? Like i said , if they had tons of fish coming to market ........maybe you would have something challenge.........as it is , sure seems like the crime has not been committed yet.....

 

[MaryHM]

What would you have them sell the product as? " Partially Certified?

I would have them sell their fish as part of the MAC certification PILOT program. Simple concept Kalk, try to grasp on.

YOu dont title your fish as less then 100 percent net collected for the same reason they cant do it and sell the fish

Uh, yes I do. I have never said that my fish are 100% net caught. I have always explained how I obtain my fish and what makes me believe they are net caught. Do a little research on my business before you speak about it.

You keep avoiding the issue in question, as to why MAC doesn't have more fish to sell today

Why do you accuse people of avoiding questions that have been answered hundreds of times in here? They don't have more fish to sell because they don't have the (here goes that word again) INFRASTRUCTURE in place. They rolled out the certification bandwagon before they had areas and collectors in any position to be certified.

? If they were really out to deceive the public with juice collected fish ......... dont you think they would be shipping a lot more fish

Please show me where I have ever said that it is MAC's mandate to deceive the public on purpose?? I do not think that MAC wants to certify cyanide caught fish. I have never said they want to do that. What I am saying is why roll out some huge advertising campaign stating that your fish are "strictly net caught" and not even have a testing regimen in place. Remember Kalk- MAC is the one who said the test is an important part of certification and that they would have it up and running soon. No CDT, but here come the ads....

It sure seems like the fact that they dont have much product is because they are doing something different then the other twenty plus companies.....................perhaps its that they are only net fishing and keeping fishing pressures light .....that they dont have much product?

I think you're getting quantities of individual fish per species mixed up with quantities of individual species. MAC has plenty of certain types of fish- clowns for example. There was a recent dumping of hundreds of half black angels as well. They have lots of certain species, but no variety. This is because they don't have hardly any collection areas certified, and the areas that are certified tend to yield replicate species. All of this has been discussed throughly in here before. Go back and do a search.

Let me state this clearly for you. I am upset that MAC promised a cyanide detection test, hasn't followed through, yet has started an advertising campaign pushing their "strictly net caught fish". I feel it is fraudulent. That is my problem with them.

 

[blue hula]

I have wondered why, given that a sustainable fishery is a goal, they don't have a senior fisheries scientist / ecologist on board at their headquarters with resource assessments as her/his main brief.

Blue hula

Blue,

Not at their headquarters, please... A Filipino scientist based in the Philippines with good truck, a decent travel budget, and dive gear. They gotta get wet.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Mike,

I absolutely agree that they need Filipino (and Indonesian and Fijian) biologists in the field, getting wet, doing the fisheries / MPA side of the work. In my experience, the individuals willing to do this kind of hands on field work tend to be relatively young and early in their careers however ...

In my opinion, with field programs and resource assessments going on (theoretically) in a whole heap of countries (at least 3 to date), they also need a more senior scientist who can design the work, crunch the data, consider the implications and write up understandable documentation (in partnership with the field biologists) and mentor the field biologists, and ensure consistency across the programs to international scientific standards. If you are going to make claims about sustainability and certify areas on the basis of these claims, you better have the numbers to back it up. That person should also be advising the policy / certification people therefore the need for a strong connection to headquarters (or roving around among in-country headquarters). The person should also come from one of the focus countries or have really spent alot of time cutting their teeth in the area

Well, if I were hiring - that's what I'd do.

Cheers, Blue hula

 

[clarionreef]

My goodness,
She said:
"If you're going to make claims of sustainability and certify areas based on these claims...you better have the numbers to back it up."
And we might add;
" If you're going to make claims of the fish being netcaught and certify fishes based on these claims...you better have some fish to go with the concept."
If you cannot produce the numbers to back up the claims nor the fish...to make it all relevant to the marketplace... then what have you been doing all this time? 5 0R 6 YEARS IN THE MAKING and several million dollars allocated....What are ya doing, going for the record set by the IMA?
Was it thought that there would be no peer review on any of this?
that no real scientists or real fish collectors would notice?
Fooling a few retailers and service guys in the Midwest may have been good sport while it lasted but the jig is up now and not everyone else is so gullible.
Meanwhile, coral is killed everyday thruout collecting regions by cyanide fishing. This slow-motion playing of the flute while Rome burns has got to stop.
Either get it right...or give back any money left and resign. Find some other game to run but leave this trade alone. The sins of this industry are to be better eradicated when laid bare and delt with honestly...not covered up by eco-front men for our very worst elements.
Sincerely, Steve

 

[mkirda]

What would you have them sell the product as? " Partially Certified?

Provisionally certified seems like it would work well enough.

I think it could be easily explained and easily understood by any and all hobbyists.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[blue hula]

What would you have them sell the product as? " Partially Certified?

Provisionally certified seems like it would work well enough.

I think it could be easily explained and easily understood by any and all hobbyists.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Why certify them at all ? Why not do the training and start by just selling uncertified healthier (net-caught) fish that people like better because they don't die ?

Then, once you've got it going, certify them as "net caught". Shout it to the heavens.

Then go and do resource assessments and set up no-take areas. THEN you can call them "certified as sustainably caught" .... THEN advertise in FAMA.

The gold standard of certification should apply to a truly golden product, not tarnished tin.

Blue hula

 

[mkirda]

Why certify them at all ?

To get them a slightly higher price to help them stay the course, with higher prices as the incentive once they become fully certified.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[blue hula]

Why certify them at all ?

To get them a slightly higher price to help them stay the course, with higher prices as the incentive once they become fully certified.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

I'm still unclear why higher prices are needed (or if they are even happening under the current system ...)

If you don't have to buy cyanide ... and if you're well trained so that you can effectively catch fish .... why is the incentive needed? (oops, there's that nasty properly trained thing again)

Plus, the use of incentives (or subsidies) has generally failed when applied to resource management problems ... there's a whole grim literature on that ... and there is the problem of long term maintenance of such incentives once market forces kick in (which should be the case if the trade is going to be self-sustaining and not requiring constant funding from Packard and company).

Cheers, Blue hula

 

[dizzy]

The way MAC is pushing certification first, and fish supply later, reminds me a bit of Jim Bakker and his Lifetime Partership program.

MAC hires an MBA student to do a dealer cost/benefit study and then publishes the results. That study which was/is posted on the MASNA web site suggests that MAC certified stores will increase their profits by as much as $100,000 per year, depending on current sales. Without fish to go along with the certification how can these predictions possibly come true? I wonder how many of the MAC dealers featured in the study have realized the profit increase they were supposed to achieve?

Jim Bakker was using his PTL ministry to over-sell vacations at the posh Heritage Grand Hotel and another resort that was never built. I believe you were supposed to get several nights accomodations and other rewards in exchange for spending $1,000 or so on the Lifetime Partnership program. Bakker had both fellow crooks, and good honest people, involved selling the scheme. Bakker ended up going to prison for fraud.

MAC may end up creating a situation where the demand for certified fish will exceed the supply they are able to deliver to their dealers. What will happen if they sell certification stickers and then the stores don't realize the increased profits that MAC implied would come? Will MAC be liable for misleading the stores? 8O I think they need to get busy with the field work.

 

[Kalkbreath]

My point is that MAC is obviously facing problems that go well beyond simply testing their fish.........To re-lable their product now , they would be drawing attention to the questionability of their product if they sold the fish under a heading anything short of "100% certified......kind like a hospital stating that ALMOST all our physicians are certified... Its either 100 percent or whats the point.....? " Very few baby seals were killed in the making of this teddy bear". Without the 100% tag .....most of the draw to the product would be lost ..... The thought that ," The fish you will be buying will be the one fish in the batch that was NOT COLLECTED NICELY.......Spoils the whole ideal...........Good grief ......your the ones that keep insisting that even though the VAST MAJORITY of PI fish are NOT collected with Cyanide..... That Thats too much .....If MAC was to state that "Although we have not yet begun testing .....the vast majoruty of our fish are cyanide free.......How would MACs product be any different then any other collectors in PI ?

 

[MaryHM]

Kalk,

Either you really just don't get it, or you enjoy arguing so much that you don't care what stance you take- just as long as someone will counter you on it. It's not like MAC labeled everything as certified, did their advertising, then someone said "uh-oh" and pointed out the flaws. They've KNOWN about these flaws for years and have staunchly refused to correct them. They've had every opportunity to solve the problems, and haven't. Heck, they've even PROMISED to fix the problems, releasing a memo giving a CDT timeline and they haven't followed through on that either. But boy oh boy, they aren't hesitating to advertise strictly net caught fish. Therein lies the problem, and I will continue to expose it until they correct it.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Kalk,

Either you really just don't get it, or you enjoy arguing so much that you don't care what stance you take- just as long as someone will counter you on it. It's not like MAC labeled everything as certified, did their advertising, then someone said "uh-oh" and pointed out the flaws. They've KNOWN about these flaws for years and have staunchly refused to correct them. They've had every opportunity to solve the problems, and haven't. Heck, they've even PROMISED to fix the problems, releasing a memo giving a CDT timeline and they haven't followed through on that either. But boy oh boy, they aren't hesitating to advertise strictly net caught fish. Therein lies the problem, and I will continue to expose it until they correct it.

So the choice is what to do now? You can say "Sorry... I told you so and slit their throats " .....Or you can take the stance that, at this point in time MAC is a wounded duck and in a very difficult situation and postpone the mob beating ......You can continue the mindset of "if I cant be reeform, then no one can !"Like Mary and Steve Or you can take a stand for the greater good of the hobby and give them a chance to reform the reeform and make good on their promises in due time.....

 

[Ad van Tage]

So the choice is what to do now?

You can say "Sorry... I told you so and slit their throats " .....

Or you can take the stance that, at this point in time MAC is a wounded duck and in a very difficult situation ......

You can continue the mindset of "if I cant be reform then no one can !" and take them out with a few more cheap shots

Or you can take a stand for the greater good of the hobby and give them a chance to reform the reeform and make good on their promises in due time.....

As I have mentioned previously, I have been following this board for a while. And I really want to add a few comments at this point.

It hardly seems to matter whether someone provides
a) a sensible post,
or
b) factual data,
or
c) impassioned pleas
and our friend Kalkbreath will respond with the equivalent of a verbal scattergram.

It is EXTREMELY difficult to make any sense out of the various unconnected tidbits that Kalkbreath attempts to sow.

Dare one ask what Kalkbreath's aim is here - other than obfuscation, illogical arguments, disconnected statements, and unsubstantiated "factoids".

Could it be that Kalkbreath has a serious and agressive case of posting halitosis?

 

[Kalkbreath]

Your most likely correct ., But thats because there is so much bs to correct and so little time to do it .......Notice that most of my posting is between the hour of 1am and 5 am ....... :wink:

 

[Kalkbreath]

Kalk,

Either you really just don't get it, or you enjoy arguing so much that you don't care what stance you take- just as long as someone will counter you on it. It's not like MAC labeled everything as certified, did their advertising, then someone said "uh-oh" and pointed out the flaws. They've KNOWN about these flaws for years and have staunchly refused to correct them. They've had every opportunity to solve the problems, and haven't. Heck, they've even PROMISED to fix the problems, releasing a memo giving a CDT timeline and they haven't followed through on that either. But boy oh boy, they aren't hesitating to advertise strictly net caught fish. Therein lies the problem, and I will continue to expose it until they correct it.

Would you feel better if MAC was ended ? If so then why?

 

[MaryHM]

Or you can take the stance that, at this point in time MAC is a wounded duck and in a very difficult situation and postpone the mob

Exactly how is asking MAC if they have a CDT in place a "mob beating"???

Personally, I don't want MAC to end. I want it to change its way of doing things and be a vehicle for true reform. Until it does that however, I will continue to point out the blatant inconsistencies. Sorry, but I don't believe in the "sit back and let them fix it in their own time" approach. Especially since they've done nothing but perputuate their own problems these past few years. Please note that I have sat back quietly on the MAC front for quite a few months. I wanted to see if they would implement THEIR OWN PROMISES as far as the CDT was concerned. Apparently sitting back and being quiet doesn't work. At least informing people of the problems allows them to make their own choice.

 

[blue hula]

Your most likely correct ., But thats because there is so much bs to correct and so little time to do it .......Notice that most of my posting is between the hour of 1am and 5 am ....... :wink:

Kalk,
Last time your somewhat chaotic illogical style was pointed out,you claimed it was because you only have a few minutes here and there to post.

If such disruptions are truly happening between 1 and 5 am, my only conclusion is that you must be breastfeeding twins that don't sleep.

Blue hula

 

[blue hula]

So the choice is what to do now? You can say "Sorry... I told you so and slit their throats " .....Or you can take the stance that, at this point in time MAC is a wounded duck and in a very difficult situation and postpone the mob beating ......You can continue the mindset of "if I cant be reeform, then no one can !"Like Mary and Steve Or you can take a stand for the greater good of the hobby and give them a chance to reform the reeform and make good on their promises in due time.....

MAC should take a page out of AA - the first step is to recognise you have a problem.

I don't think any of us with busy lives wouldn't be thrilled to see MAC get the job done without involvement.

And most compelling is the condition of the reefs and the fishers ... that's what drives people to expect MAC to do the job ... not ego as you so offensively (yet again) imply.

Ain't no joy in standing outside on this particular issue.