only 5% of sold fish are cyanide collected.

[clarionreef]

Guys,
Consider the source of information.
The % of the trade in reef stuff is increasing...yet the sheer volume of fish imports now maintains as many exporters and importers as ever. The big box chain stores entry into saltwater fish made them the biggest retail buyers in the world instantly and they have insatiable demands for basic fish for their beginner clientle.
Kalks myopia is simply based on the view of things from his niche, which to him is exactly the center of the universe.
Here in the Bay area, we have two high tech coral stores that slug it out to and help reduce to value of farm rasied corals and niether of them knows a fish from a chicken. To them, coral and reef items are all there is.
We also have another 100 shops that don't frontload reefs...and I have no idea how many branches of the chain stores there are but they compete for the low dollar saltwater fish customer and there is virtually no town without at least one of them. Now days, there are saltwater fish within bicycle riding distance of every home in an area of millions of people.
The commonality and abundance of saltwater fishlife in every community is an astounding thing to behold and is in great excess of the trade from the 90's.
To me an even more ominous trend is the rising competition among the know nothing chains. There are more of them rising to duel w/ PETCO for the beginners dollar...and that is basic fish...not red scolymias w/ bright green streaks and farm raised acros.
The reef and fish trade are becoming in a way like fresh and saltwater used to be...seperate industries. The rise of the reef trade is undeniable but so is the rise of fish importation.
Volumes are up on both.
Steve

 

[mkirda]

Seem to me that when hobbyist demand the cheapest fish possible, they are in essence demanding cyanide caught.

Rover,

There is a point on which you are wrong, very wrong.

People want to spend as little as possible for a product, period.
Economics, plain, pure and simple.
It doesn't matter what the commodity, Rover.
Think about yourself. You have two Shell stations on opposite corners of an intersection. One sells gas at $1.50 per gallon, the other at $2.00.
You tell me which one you would choose.

For a hobbyist, If they had a clue when picking between two fish that one would likely drop dead from organ damage and the other wouldn't, don't you think that they would avoid the 'dead fish swimming'?

For you, If you chose the $1.50 gas and you were driving away and your car started acting strangely, you'd know not to go back to that station, right?

The hobbyist doesn't have that choice. All he has is a dead fish.

All anyone wants is to buy fish that live. Period.
And, yes, at the cheapest price they can get them at.

The two do not have to be mutually incompatible.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

I think that's oversimplifying.

 

[MaryHM]

As one of the few people in this country who have attempted to sell net caught only fish direct to hobbyists, I have to agree with Rover. Even when educated people prefer cheap over net caught. What you fail to realize Mike is that not all cyanide fish drop dead. There are thousands upon thousands of cyanide caught fish thriving in hobbyists tanks all over the world. I tend to agree with what you say most of the time, Mike, but on this one you're going to have to take the word of the people that are dealing with the hobbyists day in and day out- not just the "elite" hobbyists, but ALL hobbyists.

 

[mkirda]

As one of the few people in this country who have attempted to sell net caught only fish direct to hobbyists, I have to agree with Rover. Even when educated people prefer cheap over net caught. What you fail to realize Mike is that not all cyanide fish drop dead. There are thousands upon thousands of cyanide caught fish thriving in hobbyists tanks all over the world. I tend to agree with what you say most of the time, Mike, but on this one you're going to have to take the word of the people that are dealing with the hobbyists day in and day out- not just the "elite" hobbyists, but ALL hobbyists.

Hey Mary and Rover.

I fully realize, Mary, that by the time fish caught with cyanide arrive in a LFS' tanks, most of the one that are going to die quickly have died already, earlier in the supply chain.

I fully realize that many of those that do remain will live for years and years.

Where we disagree is the attribution to the reason 'why' people "prefer" cheap. That is all.
I come from an Economics background- so this rational analysis model of supply and demand seems so second-nature to me.
People make near-rational decisions based on inperfect information all the time.
But if this model you are talking about- people prefer cheap over all else- were true, there would be no luxury models of anything. The fact that you can buy a Lexus versus a Kia already disproves this.

Rational economic behavior dictates that people will pay as little as they can for *any* commodity, be it fish or gas or milk or calamansi.
Occasionally we add in irrational factors, like brand loyalty, or we make other calculations - It will cost less to buy Milk at Jewel, but then I'd waste an hour in the checkout line, so I'd best pay the extra dollar and buy it at White Hen instead...

When it comes to fish in a store, we have no way of knowing if the fish was caught by cyanide or not. We have imperfect information, in other words. Given the choice between two fish, both eating, a rational consumer would look at coloration, how the fish were acting, how they were eating, how fat they were, etc., then make their choice, all while taking price into consideration. If they were smart, they would shake you down on the price too... Jenn has the same fish for $25 instead of $35... How about knocking the price down a bit? If you refuse, they can walk out and are free to go to Jenn's to buy said fish instead.

To me, the entire process is completely rational.

The entire industry runs this way, I know.
Everyone gets squeezed, and way too few care.
This is why, frankly, I'm pretty sure that a demand-driven reform effort would be dead on arrival. This is why I have consistently stated that the reform efforts need to happen 'over there', Kalk's assertions to the contrary be damned. Only when the divers themselves are converted will we see real change.

If you see this as disagreement, then we can agree to disagree.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[JennM]

Once a wholesaler told me that their yellow tangs were from PI... :roll:

:

Thats because mimic tangs are listed as yellow tangs on every list from PI. And Actually they ARE yellow tangs are they not? :wink:

Well, considering we were both standing in front of a tank full of Zebrasoma flavescens, I really don't think she was thinking of mimics... :roll: I hate to paint everyone with one brush, but in my experience, livestock wholesale "salespeople" know sales, not fish or corals. There are a few notable exceptions but I've found that dealing with the owner of the import company yields much better results. I found that with the biggies, knowledge of the "product" wasn't as necessary as good salesmanship. That flies in the face of my business philosphy, so I moved on.

Each week, somebody new to my store is astonished to learn that many fishes are "tradtionally" caught with cyanide. I pick up Bob Fenner's book, flip it open to page 162-163 and SHOW them. Many people already own that book but for whatever reason they never bothered to read that chapter. Some think that's an "extinct" problem -- that it was over many years ago -- they are surprised to hear about the netting fund drives and reform-minded members of the trade. I don't know if it always sinks in, but I try to educate as many people as want to hear. Glenn is right though, it *is* over simplified, and at the end of the day, money talks - they go where it's cheapest and devil be damned. Very few people ever ask me about where the fish are from or how they are caught. They simply magically appear in my tanks each week

I don't think my fish are any pricier than my competitors' for the most part, but I haven't gone mystery shopping in a while either. Shops that have such high mortality from cyanide deaths, and bad handling and bad husbandry ( or any and/or ALL OF THE ABOVE), have to charge more for the live ones, to pay for the dead -- I'm actually keeping more of my money now that I am not shopping at "Big Box Fish 'R' Us" anymore because I just don't lose them like I did when I didn't know better. The most expensive fish is indeed a dead fish - so Mike I do agree with you in that regard, but unfortunately for most hobbyists who don't inform themselves, they cannot "SEE" the difference between my coral beauty and the other store's. They both look alike, priced similarly, both eat - and the other store's fish might live just as long... or the hobbyist can make a mistake and kill either one... so if you placed those fishes on the same playing field at the retail/hobbyist level, there is no tangible difference.

HOWEVER... the one caught with cyanide brings a legacy of other dead fishes in its wake, dead corals and other dead organisms on the reef. The diver has risked his/her own life and health, to cyanide exposure.

It does go beyond simple economics, and I concur with the notion that it has to be fixed at the source for reform to truly work. Education at the hobbyist level is important but the real key is to fix the problem before it leaves the reef.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

Rational economic behavior dictates that people will pay as little as they can for *any* commodity, be it fish or gas or milk or calamansi.
Occasionally we add in irrational factors, like brand loyalty, or we make other calculations - It will cost less to buy Milk at Jewel, but then I'd waste an hour in the checkout line, so I'd best pay the extra dollar and buy it at White Hen instead...

The big distinction is this is a hobby. A luxury item for the majority of consumers. And as sad as it is, most hobbyist just accept a certain amount of death, and the the vast majority simply don't expect to get 10+ years out of every fish. No one buys milk expecting it to spoil.

 

[clarionreef]

Mike,
It is illogical to view this logically.
The merchant class of exporters from S.E.Asia know good and well what make customers tick. They know good and well that Westerners profess higher values and practice lower ones when no one is looking. They also ship to themselves in the US and out-compete the 'white boys' easily.
sO, Tthe American importers get cheaper also to survive..Many do not survive. Making a living on small profit takes a lot more talent then making a living on a 'fair' one.
The cheap, dumber mass hold the prices down with the particulars of fish health and issues unknown to them.
The cheap, dumber mass then allows for the better hobbyists [a small elite] to freeload so to speak and get fish for lower prices then they could ever bargain for on their own.
Cheap, living color runs the trade and thats how the big chain stores are able to cash in.
Buy cheap...sell only as high as the next guy lets you. Cheating and minimizing the diver? Hardly an issue they ever heard voiced. Only the un-involved seem to voice that argument.
Sustainability? Please. The 95% of the industry cannot spell the word. Much less define it or practice it.
Paying divers a fair wage seems..well, fair, right?
But cheating divers and stealing from them and manipulating them are all standard policy.. Its done to keep prices low enough to compete w/ the others. The ignorance of issues the elite holds dear allows the mass dealers to focus on simple math. $5.00 good...but $4.00 is better.
Netcaught coral beauties mean little except to the few that actually get to see the difference over time. And then they are preferred...at the same price standard set by the mass market in cyanide ones!
Decades of price wars have given us the fish trade as it is; a trade that punishes people for doing it right and rewards those that do it wrong. Wrong for the fish and the resource but right for todays sales scoreboard.
I never get to deal w/ the public. I get to deal w/ people who compare 5-10 price lists weekly and I am expected to be as cheap as the rest...or lose the sale.
Frankly...the trade has lost much of its appeal to me. As a prisoner of conscience, I relize that the a consciencious few hardly comprise much of a customer base. There seemed to be a chance...and then the transhippers grew and then the chain-store wildfish dealers and finally the internet.
Yellow tangs may go to the public now for $9.99 and purple ones $29.99!

Whats next...wholsalers opening the door to the public?
The trade dumbs it down to fit the mass mindset and the message of doing things better or ethical gets lost in the stampede.
The trade has an inside joke which is sad actually. It goes like this.
"I run the store but have 'real job' to subsidize it. My wife also has a 'real' job."
It also helps to come into the trade already rich.
Steve

 

[JennM]

The trade has an inside joke which is sad actually. It goes like this.
"I run the store but have 'real job' to subsidize it. My wife also has a 'real' job."
It also helps to come into the trade already rich.
Steve

Yep. Bingo. I play in the water all day, my husband has the "real job" that pays the bills - although even he will agree that for the most part, I work harder

Of course we came into the trade on a shoestring budget and made the conscious decision to invest every dime back into the business. We've done that and it has enabled us to expand just 2 years in. But you're right, I know a number of people in various aspects of the trade, whose significant others, fund their obsession

Jenn

 

[PeterIMA]

Jenn, I admire your dedication and honesty. I still hope that we can change the situation to the benefit of the small retailers and hobbyists who want to do things right.
Peter

 

[JennM]

Jenn, I admire your dedication and honesty. I still hope that we can change the situation to the benefit of the small retailers and hobbyists who want to do things right.
Peter

Thanks Peter. I'm not alone though, the supply network we use is what makes it possible. Besides, it's dedication and honesty, not cheap prices, that are the only advantage I have over the chains and franchises. Once people bang their heads against the wall for a while, they seek out a "real" LFS that cares about the success of their clients and the welfare of the livestock (not necessarily in that order).

As I've repeated as a mantra (esp. to Kalk), I am doing what little I am able to do - not because I expect to change the world but because I *can* do my part, and I should. If more took on that way of thinking, change would come about sooner.

Jenn

 

[clarionreef]

Hmm,
The Philippinization of the industry based on an assumption of limitless product, cheap labor and cyanide to fuel itself in lieu of craftsmanship may finally run out of gas as its own resource base depletes but it has exported its "philosophy of business" to other lands and continues to grow.
It also exports its own divers to work for others who could not make it work well with their own locals.
Why did the purple tang lose its value and become a Petco staple for example?
The Red Sea, Belize and the South Pacific are becoming staffed increasingly with Filipino professionals and are cranking up production 'Philippine style.' As catch totals mount, overstock occurs and prices drop.
A king pin of cyanide fish told me that thanks to them, saltwater fish costs are now in reach of everyone. They lowered the bar to buy into the marketplace and L.A. has never been the same since.
How low can a price go to supply the mass market with marinelife weighted w/ dozens of social and environmental baggage?
Below cost...thats how low.
How can that be? Understand it or not...it is in many, many cases now.

But who will support the new Philippine netcaught fish and pay higher prices to extend more justice to the fisherman then? Such higher prices will doom the netcaught dealer...will they not? If he doesn't thrive...how can the age of sustainability and enlightenment evolve?
How indeed....
Steve

 

[Kalkbreath]

Vitz, I have the Woods report. The last time I tried to access it on the Marine Conservtion Society website, it wasn't there. I have some problems with her cyanide discussion. Otherwise, it is a good source of information. So is Reefs to Aquaria by the World Conservation Monitoring Center. Kalk is probably right that exports from PI have declined by about 50% since 1995. My guess is that there are still many more live marine fish tanks than reef tanks. Since, the concerns of IMA are coral reef conservation (read corals and fishes), I think regulatory agencies and the USCRTF need to become concerned if the number of live reef tanks have "increased tenfold".

Kalk has done such a good job of focusing the issue on the number of cyanided fish imported that the other issues of reef destruction (like coral collecting for the aquarium and curio trades) are not getting the attention they deserve. The IMA is concerned about protecting coral reefs and conserving (all) marine resources for the benefit of the local people.

Peter

I have been waiting for some one to bring the issue of coral collection up.............What does the IMA think about MO coral collection?

 

[Anonymous]

kalk:

why do you think the exports from PI have declined by about 50% since 1995 ?

 

[Anonymous]

Man, go away for a few days and have a ton of reading to catch up on :lol:

Steve & Mary,
Plaeeeezzzz don't give up the good fight.

As one of the few hobbiests that has seen the quality of the fish that you two carry/sell, I could tell the difference. I was very impressed. Bravo and kudos to you both. Makes me wish there were more like you out there.

 

[Kalkbreath]

kalk:

why do you think the exports from PI have declined by about 50% since 1995 ?

Competition from about ten new collection locations Today, that were either not collecting at all until now or were doing very little ten years ago is a big part of the reason. There are no fish shortages from PI . {other then certain species} There is a reason why there are price breaks at 100 and 1000 pieces. :wink: There are too many fish, too many collectors. Also ..... The demand for fish per hobbyist is down as well. Advancements in equipment like skimmers .....the used of live rock and cheap salt .....has resulted in less fish deaths ......And lastly the modern reef tank keeps demand for fish low .

 

[MaryHM]

As has been mentioned on here before, I was already forced to sell out a few months back. It was do or die. Want to know the disgusting part? Our fish sales are up over 40% from this same time last year. I'm not the only former net caught only wholesaler that has been forced to sell out, either. Just goes to prove that 95% of retailers really only care about variety and price. Hopefully at some point in the future we'll be able to support net caught fully again. Until then, we're working on our greenhouse for coral propagation.

 

[PeterIMA]

Kalk, I disagree with some of your assumptions. The supply of higher priced fish species from the Philippines has definitely declined. Species like Majestic angels and Blue-faced angels have definitely declined in availability from exporters because they are disappearing from the reefs. There are more collectors scraping down the remaining species using cyanide in ever more degraded habitats. The situation is similar in Indonesia. But being a bigger country with more reefs the supply of high priced species still exists in the more distant regions away from Bali. So, we have not yet seen these species decline at the importer and retail levels in the USA. They will sooner than some might expect. There has been a shift with more MO fish coming from Indonesia. Dr. Elizabeth Woods had estimates on this, but I have not yet see the estimates published.

I fear that in the not too distant future, net-caught MAC-certified MO fish will only be available from large chains like PETCO and PETSMART. They will monopolize the supply of net-caught fish.

Peter

 

[clarionreef]

Peter,
I think the MAC supply was ment to deodorize the bigger players w/ the money. The few small ones are along to dress it up a bit ...Since they were given a reduced rate to join ie. free for the two tiny ones in Manila...it made sense and was painless.
For the big guys its even cheaper proportionate to income and quite painless. I have interviewed people who got certified and they were surprised by how the certifier new nothing and had to 'take their word' for everything!
Some big players in Manila and Bali will be certified soon and they are assured that there will be 'no interruption in supply.' [code words for tolerance in cyanide based inventories]. With that, they shell out the peanuts [ to them anyway] and will be certified.
The real motive now is to certify dealers to validate ie. certify MAC as an entity. Although they can't begin to deliver on the promise of better quality, sustainably collected fish, they are getting a certified body count to satisfy funder mandates.

Steve

 

[mkirda]

No one buys milk expecting it to spoil.

Heh. I buy milk expecting it to spoil.

How about "No one buys milk expecting it to spoil before the expiration date printed on the package."?

If it does, I return it for a refund.

Regards.
Mike Kirda