Going to Bali!

[mkirda]

Do you think Ferdinand would like to see this kind of garbage?

Jaime, I didn't make that up.

I've called Ferdinand before several times, and have spoken to his mother any number of times. When I have called and he was in Indonesia, she told me so. She is quite the charming lady, even is she never recalls my name, she knows exactly whom I am when I mention Chicago.

You asked how I knew, I told you.
Sorry you think his mother's word is garbage.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

Oh my gosh,
If the difference in handnets and barrier nets was not understood despite 70 odd posts over the past two years, how could anything else beyond it be understood? My but this sheds some light on some 'misunderstandings'.
Apples...oranges.
Soft 'corals'...hard corals.
Flourescent lighting...incandescent lighting.
Barrier nets...hand nets.

I'm not surprised if a newbie to the forum is temporarily confused about this stuff but not anyone whos ever worked with marine ornamental fisherman and dabbled in things that affect their lives so much.
No wonder nothing gets thru. Its like an intellectual firewall.
Geez Louise,
Steve

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Do you think Ferdinand would like to see this kind of garbage?

Jaime, I didn't make that up.

I've called Ferdinand before several times, and have spoken to his mother any number of times. When I have called and he was in Indonesia, she told me so. She is quite the charming lady, even is she never recalls my name, she knows exactly whom I am when I mention Chicago.

You asked how I knew, I told you.
Sorry you think his mother's word is garbage.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Oh Boy. Those are your words Mike. Please respect the Lady.

 

[mkirda]

Do you think Ferdinand would like to see this kind of garbage?

Jaime, I didn't make that up.

I've called Ferdinand before several times, and have spoken to his mother any number of times. When I have called and he was in Indonesia, she told me so. She is quite the charming lady, even is she never recalls my name, she knows exactly whom I am when I mention Chicago.

You asked how I knew, I told you.
Sorry you think his mother's word is garbage.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Oh Boy. Those are your words Mike. Please respect the Lady.

Jaime,

I am now confused about what exactly you considered 'garbage' in my post... I can only think of the following:

1) The fact that I mentioned that I have spoken to Ferdinand's mother.
2) That you considered the content of my post crap.
3) That you considered the source of my information crap.

I don't see anything crappy about #1.
Nor #2, frankly- It responded to your request for info with verification and source.
Only #3 makes sense in context, but it seems rather mean-spirited.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Mary, Thanks for the clarification. I thought you had sent barrier nets. I am confused with some pictures I saw somewhere in this or other forum.

To talk about the false hope use the you in second person plural. False hope is when you(2nd person plural) fail to fullfill for reasons that could be out of reach. As for example lack of support from possible partners or funding agencies.

Is possible that people do not want to listen to you because of some lack of savoir faire?

 

[MaryHM]

Jaime,

I do not understand this last post.

Mary, Thanks for the clarification. I thought you had sent barrier nets.

It was discussed in here SEVERAL times that the material I sent was hand netting and that AMDA was going to do the barrier netting. I'm not sure how you got confused on that.

To talk about the false hope use the you in second person plural. False hope is when you(2nd person plural) fail to fullfill for reasons that could be out of reach. As for example lack of support from possible partners or funding agencies.

I'm not sure what you are talking about here. You were talking to me and referring to my net project. If you're going to switch and talk about the definition of false hope in general, please make it clear. I still don't know what false hope you're even referring to. Do you?

Is possible that people do not want to listen to you because of some lack of savoir faire?

Jaime, I have been educating hobbyists about cyanide use for almost 5 years. This forum is definitely not the only means I've used- in fact, most of the hobbyists that learn about cyanide use from me learn about it through the Reefsource website (millions of hits). To insinuate that hobbyists are not listening because of some perceived lack of "savoir faire" on my part is ABSURD. The message was being preached long before I came along. People don't listen because they don't want to hear. Hear no evil, see no evil. People actually prefer to live in a state of ignorance and denial about this subject because they really, really want that fish and they really, really don't want to think they're contributing to the cyanide trade. I think you need to face some facts here and quit trying to make up excuses or place blame.

 

[MaryHM]

Well, well, well. Someone asked me about some information that I had up on Reefsource so I delved into my MAC files over there to help them. And who's name should I see but our own Mr. Jaime Baquero! And you know what he wrote to me in a letter quite a while back (that was published on Reefsource with his permission):

This situation was the reality in the Philippines 20 years ago, today 20 years later the situation is almost the same for thousands (5,000) of fish collectors 1,000 learnt how to use nets instead of cyanide, but after all the effort do not see an economic incentive to keep using nets.

The situation is worse in Indonesia where the number of fisherfolks could be at least twice, spread in over 70,000 islands where law enforcement doesn't exist.

We should remember that over 70% of fish coming to North America are collected in the Philippines and Indonesia.

So why now Jaime have you decided that Indonesia needs to wait in line behind the Philippines?? If anyone is interested, the full letter can be read here:

http://www.reefsource.com/Industry%20Is ... 20of%20OVI

 

[clarionreef]

Mary,
After reading the click-on post a bit more, I read the Latin letter and was amazed at how prophetic it has become.
He absolutely nailed it...and so early in the game as well!

I think you should elevate the level in this subject area and post the Latin letter as "Latin Revisited."
Steve

PS. Well, do you think you're lacking in savoire faire?
Perhaps you should be more compliant, pander more, hold your honest, heart felt opinions to your self and don't say what you mean or think.
Think politically and 'shamelessly shallow' and learn to get along w/ any who reek of fortune and opportunity.
Kiss butt often and check your ethics in at the door...but
don't forget to pick them up on the way home!
Ahh, but soon you will forget and before you know it, you'll find that you have turned...ever so impeceptibly at first and then more steadily.
There are those who do burn bridges...on purpose. Mindful of the temptation of the joys. perks and rewards of self service...they burn some bridges to lessen the ease of selling out their code...

 

[Anonymous]

http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19518

 

[Kalkbreath]

I think the issue of how many collectors are really working in PI needs to be adressed , because it gauges what percent of collectors have formal training and how many more are out there to be trained. Four thousand is the number of popular choice...........but not possible giving the total fish exported per year...........3,000,000 divided by four thousand collectors is 800 fish per year per collector. or sixteen fish a week..............? Does it really take ten collectors diving all week to collect ONE box of fish? I DONT THINK SO!

 

[clarionreef]

There are not 4,000 in the Philippines.
Perhaps in all Indo china...but the Philippines only has 800-1,000 now.
Indo has more.
Steve

 

[mkirda]

I think the issue of how many collectors are really working in PI needs to be adressed , because it gauges what percent of collectors have formal training and how many more are out there to be trained. Four thousand is the number of popular choice...........but not possible giving the total fish exported per year...........3,000,000 divided by four thousand collectors is 800 fish per year per collector. or sixteen fish a week..............? Does it really take ten collectors diving all week to collect ONE box of fish? I DONT THINK SO!

Kalk,

As we have explained before, not all areas can be fished 12 months out of the year. Nor do all villages have fishermen who only do MO 100% of the time. Many villages can only collect MO locally for a couple of months. Additionally, a core group may work the reefs, with a few others coming in and collecting for a week here and a week there. Also, each collector needs someone to man the hookah hose, so collectors may dive only half the time.

This is the danger with your casual and uninformed analysis. There may be 4000 different MO fishermen that work in a given year. That does not mean that they all work 365 days each year doing only MO fishing. They often work much, much less than this, depending on local conditions, weather, etc.

 

[clarionreef]

The great traditional collecting center of Pabilao, Quezon is pretty much out of business now.
They were the worlds most notorious cyanide center for many years but have come to grief as locals began taking back their areas one by one.
This depot had a thousand collectors alone in its heyday.
Steve

 

[Kalkbreath]

I think the issue of how many collectors are really working in PI needs to be adressed , because it gauges what percent of collectors have formal training and how many more are out there to be trained. Four thousand is the number of popular choice...........but not possible giving the total fish exported per year...........3,000,000 divided by four thousand collectors is 800 fish per year per collector. or sixteen fish a week..............? Does it really take ten collectors diving all week to collect ONE box of fish? I DONT THINK SO!

Kalk,

As we have explained before, not all areas can be fished 12 months out of the year. Nor do all villages have fishermen who only do MO 100% of the time. Many villages can only collect MO locally for a couple of months. Additionally, a core group may work the reefs, with a few others coming in and collecting for a week here and a week there. Also, each collector needs someone to man the hookah hose, so collectors may dive only half the time.

This is the danger with your casual and uninformed analysis. There may be 4000 different MO fishermen that work in a given year. That does not mean that they all work 365 days each year doing only MO fishing. They often work much, much less than this, depending on local conditions, weather, etc.

So what you are saying is that most of the 4,000 also collect food fish? Interesting! :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

kalk wrote:

So what you are saying is that most of the 4,000 also collect food fish? Interesting!

get ready mike, he's powering up again!!

 

[clarionreef]

For What Vitz?
Its no wonder that most the fish collectors also catch food to eat and sell...to various degrees in various times of the year.
The fishermans numbers swell in the good times and wane in the bad ie. bad weather.
Ferdies estimate working ith EASI as that there are just over 800 full timers now!
Futhermore, quite a number of collectors also work abroad now.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

For What Vitz? Its no wonder that most the fish collectors also catch food to eat and sell...to various degrees in various times of the year.
The fishermans numbers swell in the good times and wane in the bad ie. bad weather.
Ferdies estimate working ith EASI as that there are just over 800 full timers now!
Futhermore, quite a number of collectors also work abroad now.
Steve

to, as mike stated in another thread...

Rehash, reheat and repeat. :wink:

 

[mkirda]

get ready mike, he's powering up again!!

He's just plugging in his decrepit microwave again.
Gotta hit the three Rs.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Jaime,

I do not understand this last post.

Mary, Thanks for the clarification. I thought you had sent barrier nets.

It was discussed in here SEVERAL times that the material I sent was hand netting and that AMDA was going to do the barrier netting. I'm not sure how you got confused on that.

To talk about the false hope use the you in second person plural. False hope is when you(2nd person plural) fail to fullfill for reasons that could be out of reach. As for example lack of support from possible partners or funding agencies.

I'm not sure what you are talking about here. You were talking to me and referring to my net project. If you're going to switch and talk about the definition of false hope in general, please make it clear. I still don't know what false hope you're even referring to. Do you?

Is possible that people do not want to listen to you because of some lack of savoir faire?

Jaime, I have been educating hobbyists about cyanide use for almost 5 years. This forum is definitely not the only means I've used- in fact, most of the hobbyists that learn about cyanide use from me learn about it through the Reefsource website (millions of hits). To insinuate that hobbyists are not listening because of some perceived lack of "savoir faire" on my part is ABSURD. The message was being preached long before I came along. People don't listen because they don't want to hear. Hear no evil, see no evil. People actually prefer to live in a state of ignorance and denial about this subject because they really, really want that fish and they really, really don't want to think they're contributing to the cyanide trade. I think you need to face some facts here and quit trying to make up excuses or place blame.

It has been difficult to get the hobbyists on board, we all know that. My comment regarding your lack of savoir faire is oriented to other level as for example MAC. In one hand you(pl) have been doing some positive efforts to contribute to solve the problem, on the other hand you(pl) have been doing your best to discredit the work done by others. You(pl) know how difficult is to work with the stakeholders of this industry, by discrediting what others are trying to do doesn't help. Do you agree?

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Mary,
After reading the click-on post a bit more, I read the Latin letter and was amazed at how prophetic it has become.
He absolutely nailed it...and so early in the game as well!

I think you should elevate the level in this subject area and post the Latin letter as "Latin Revisited."
Steve

PS. Well, do you think you're lacking in savoire faire?
Perhaps you should be more compliant, pander more, hold your honest, heart felt opinions to your self and don't say what you mean or think.
Think politically and 'shamelessly shallow' and learn to get along w/ any who reek of fortune and opportunity.
Kiss butt often and check your ethics in at the door...but
don't forget to pick them up on the way home!
Ahh, but soon you will forget and before you know it, you'll find that you have turned...ever so impeceptibly at first and then more steadily.
There are those who do burn bridges...on purpose. Mindful of the temptation of the joys. perks and rewards of self service...they burn some bridges to lessen the ease of selling out their code...

Strong in rhetoric weak in what counts. Does the letter includes your association with Eco-....something? People would like to know about it.