No I do not agree one single bit. Jaime, I haven't discredited their work. I've simply pointed out the major flaws in the program- flaws like not having a CDT, not providing netting, misrepresenting certification, etc... Sorry, but I don't sit back and just smile because some organization is TRYING to help. If you're going to help, put your money where your mouth is. Don't be so wishy washy, vague, elusive, and down right shady. I have no respect for any organization that does that and MAC seems to do that at every turn. I think that pointing these flaws out is actually positive. If you don't, then that's your opinion and we will just agree to disagree.
Going to Bali!
- Thread starter Jaime Baquero
- Start date
No I do not agree one single bit. Jaime, I haven't discredited their work. I've simply pointed out the major flaws in the program- flaws like not having a CDT, not providing netting, misrepresenting certification, etc... Sorry, but I don't sit back and just smile because some organization is TRYING to help. If you're going to help, put your money where your mouth is. Don't be so wishy washy, vague, elusive, and down right shady. I have no respect for any organization that does that and MAC seems to do that at every turn. I think that pointing these flaws out is actually positive. If you don't, then that's your opinion and we will just agree to disagree.
Jaime Baquero":31urk2xa said:
Jaime,
This is an age-old question. If you are in an organization and you perceive it's behavior as wrong, WHAT are you to do?
1) You can continue to work inside that organization, trying to affect change from within.
2) You can quit and move on with your life.
3) You can become a whistle-blower and deal with the repurcussions.
No one answer is always right or always wrong. It depends entirely on circumstances and the organization and what it is doing.
You can disagree with the choices one has made.
You can think that you would have done better.
But neither one of these discussions will ever lead anywhere.
For better or for worse, Steve has a history of option #3. You disagree with his choice(s). That's the entire story in a nutshell. It doesn't lead us anywhere, other than to highlight the fact that you two approached things differently, and that the ensuing dialog has highlighted that neither one of you care for each other much on a personal or professional level.
{yawn}
I understand your point. I understand Steve's as well.
Can we move beyond the personal BS now?
Regards.
Mike Kirda
clarionreef
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- San Francisco
Hmmm,
Both presidents Nixon and Clinton had secretaries who got into trouble for not blowing the whistle on their organizations when they remained 'team players' after malfeasence in the organization became known.
The phrase "What did you know and when did you know it" will be remembered a long time.
In 1983 when I worked for an Imelda Marcos NGO called Project Compassion, "keeping the change for oneself" was the mission, it seemed.
Then, with the same director our project got 'double funded' thru the Environmental Center of the Philippines.
[We trained way back then with the right nettings, with jars and ocean holding and with no intereference from the front office. We trained in Pangasinan and Buhol...where some of the guys were "trained again" by MAC 20 years later.]
Then, with these funds, the director set up his own private export business called V-Mead and used the divers we had trained to supply that business. Training for other areas stopped as he figured we were getting enough fish.
QUESTION;
What do you do in this situation? What would you do?
1] Go along, don't rock the boat and get paid.
2] Continue to work inside the organization.
3] Resign and go home.
4] Blow the whistle to US Aid and UNICEF where the fundings came from?
Steve
Both presidents Nixon and Clinton had secretaries who got into trouble for not blowing the whistle on their organizations when they remained 'team players' after malfeasence in the organization became known.
The phrase "What did you know and when did you know it" will be remembered a long time.
In 1983 when I worked for an Imelda Marcos NGO called Project Compassion, "keeping the change for oneself" was the mission, it seemed.
Then, with the same director our project got 'double funded' thru the Environmental Center of the Philippines.
[We trained way back then with the right nettings, with jars and ocean holding and with no intereference from the front office. We trained in Pangasinan and Buhol...where some of the guys were "trained again" by MAC 20 years later.]
Then, with these funds, the director set up his own private export business called V-Mead and used the divers we had trained to supply that business. Training for other areas stopped as he figured we were getting enough fish.
QUESTION;
What do you do in this situation? What would you do?
1] Go along, don't rock the boat and get paid.
2] Continue to work inside the organization.
3] Resign and go home.
4] Blow the whistle to US Aid and UNICEF where the fundings came from?
Steve
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
By that James,
I take it you would just go home then?
Steve
I take it you would just go home then?
Steve
cortez marine":k2axop09 said:
Steve,
You changed #1 to be "Look the other way", which is different from my original #1, which is stay inside the organization and try to effect change from within.
That is a huge difference, IMO.
Seeing how whistleblowers are typically treated by their organizations, my first choice would be to try to affect change from within. If that does not work, I would re-evaluate my position, then choose from whichever options are left before me. It is possible that you might switch teams, leaving the bad organization for a better one. Other options might present themselves. #3 is, to me, a weapon of last resort and not something to be taken lightly. Depending on the situation, reporting the infraction to the funding agency might be done anonymously, accomplishing the same task...
Sometimes full-frontal attack is the best option, while other times, subtlety is best. Without being in your shoes at the time, it is impossible for me to say how exactly I would have acted. Again, this is not criticism but recognition that there are several ways to approach most problems.
Regards.
Mike Kirda
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Mike,
I agree but added it on to the one I find the most common option that people choose by far. Staying put, adjusting their ideals and getting paid.
Sometimes the time spent working within the wrong organization added up to years and the decision to leave not a snappy one at all.
Thank goodness for the whistle-blowers in the nuclear power industry that forced changes not coming from within.
Thank goodness for people like Ralph Nader, Karen Silkwood, Erin Brockovich, Paul Erlich, David Brower [co- founder Sierra Club, founder Friends of the Earth, Founder Rainforest Action Network etc.] whose fearlessness gave irresposible corporations something to fear.
And the Viet Nam veterns against the war, the Union of Concerned Scientists and many of the heros in our history that we respect for standing up for what they believe in after...the system they worked with failed and failed again.
I wouldn't list another 100 of our cultural heroes who finally stopped working within a system that didn't work as you all can think of your own favorites anyway.
The best defense against reform activists is to short circuit their agenda with meaningful reform.
Steve
I agree but added it on to the one I find the most common option that people choose by far. Staying put, adjusting their ideals and getting paid.
Sometimes the time spent working within the wrong organization added up to years and the decision to leave not a snappy one at all.
Thank goodness for the whistle-blowers in the nuclear power industry that forced changes not coming from within.
Thank goodness for people like Ralph Nader, Karen Silkwood, Erin Brockovich, Paul Erlich, David Brower [co- founder Sierra Club, founder Friends of the Earth, Founder Rainforest Action Network etc.] whose fearlessness gave irresposible corporations something to fear.
And the Viet Nam veterns against the war, the Union of Concerned Scientists and many of the heros in our history that we respect for standing up for what they believe in after...the system they worked with failed and failed again.
I wouldn't list another 100 of our cultural heroes who finally stopped working within a system that didn't work as you all can think of your own favorites anyway.
The best defense against reform activists is to short circuit their agenda with meaningful reform.
Steve
Whistleblowing (should) never be the wrong answer, but it takes guts, as the messenger almost always gets shot.
Look up Roger Boisjoly http://onlineethics.org/moral/boisjoly/RB-intro.html
He went as far as he could inside the organization. He did not "blow the whistle." Had he done so, I'm not sure it would have made any difference, given the culture and pressures of the time.
Look up Roger Boisjoly http://onlineethics.org/moral/boisjoly/RB-intro.html
He went as far as he could inside the organization. He did not "blow the whistle." Had he done so, I'm not sure it would have made any difference, given the culture and pressures of the time.
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Tran,
Since he didn't blow the whistle, we'll never know if the Challenger accident could have been averted.
Thanks for your referal. They even have an Ethics Help Line :!:
IMAGINE...an ethics help-line for those in need of ...help with their ...er...ethics.....
Sincerely, Steve
The time for gettin shot on this is past. We no longer confront cyanide traders directly...we confront their "representatives " who don't threaten violence as their fine clients used to.
Since he didn't blow the whistle, we'll never know if the Challenger accident could have been averted.
Thanks for your referal. They even have an Ethics Help Line :!:
IMAGINE...an ethics help-line for those in need of ...help with their ...er...ethics.....
Sincerely, Steve
The time for gettin shot on this is past. We no longer confront cyanide traders directly...we confront their "representatives " who don't threaten violence as their fine clients used to.
Mary, I think Jamesw was referring to the following process (which is what we sort-of-teach in theory to budding engineers, but never really well):
(a) First, bring the conflicts to your peers & try to resolve, and establish all information necessary,
(b) Go up the chain of command with increasingly strongly worded memos
(c) Skip up the chain of command
(d) Go outside the chain of command
(e) Resign before you get named as a defendant in the exploding Ford Pinto...
IMO, most folks stop at level (b), because they value their secure jobs more than they fear the damage caused by going along.
Hy
(a) First, bring the conflicts to your peers & try to resolve, and establish all information necessary,
(b) Go up the chain of command with increasingly strongly worded memos
(c) Skip up the chain of command
(d) Go outside the chain of command
(e) Resign before you get named as a defendant in the exploding Ford Pinto...
IMO, most folks stop at level (b), because they value their secure jobs more than they fear the damage caused by going along.
Hy
In response to Jaime,
I could not response earlier and was knock out of the RDO because somebody out there does not like me. I was sent 72 viruses that crashed my PC and destroyed most of the files. Spent a month to reconstruct everything and get my computer going.
What is the beef about Indonesia? Indonesia has a big problem with cyanide too. Why shouldn’t I help? Don’t you know that exporters there are now forcing importers to get the same amount of cyanide fish if they order a certain amount of corals? Right now I am in Manado, Indonesia to do my own income generating work and when an exporter, Blue Star found out, the owner flew down from Jakarta to ask for some assistance. Ambon is catching blue tang and navarchus in volume with cyanide. It so happens I know the middleman and shippers and are also here right now talking to me so why shouldn’t I help out? What a myopic view to think that Philippines should be the only major focus….
Jaime, I give out nets here in Indonesia even during IMA’s, MAC’s time and even up to now. Especially now that we have two kinds of nets one of which were donated through the efforts of Mary M and Mike K.
To put malicious speculation to rest I think explaining where I derived my means of livelihood and how I can move will put all the evil thoughts to rest. I did not want to response before because it is none of your business. Somebody out there asked me this earlier but through a private email. I answered him. You should have done that.
Well here it is: Aside from people who has been helping me, a small personal savings that is gone now and with a very supportive family when I got out of MAC I started again what I was doing pre IMA days. I do FISH. Before you jump into conclusions I am sorry to say it is not ornamental fish but groupers. I work in the field of rearing groupers in fish cages to marketable sizes. I am consulted for a fee of course on how and where to catch, sort, care, and transport grouper fry and fingerlings to fish cages. I am consulted on how to pack, ship and link fish cage owners to the right market. I am consulted on how to prevent probable fish kills. This job gives me also the chance to visit ornamental collecting sites in the Philippines. Of course I spend part of my own earnings to visit the ornamental sites. Every month for ten days more or less I go to these grouper cages with all my expenses paid. My other work is I am a consultant to western persons who have small-scale businesses or investments in Asia that have Asian partners. Imagine the problems of a business when western ideas and standards are forced down the throats of Asians. Shortcuts are made and chaos reigns. Things do not work out, money is lost and relationships are strained. I act as the go-between that is trusted and acceptable to both parties. In short I marry the east and the west. I get paid by the hour by western standards and I think you know the rates paid to consultants in the West. I work 8 days a month all expenses paid hotels, airfare and car rentals. That is why I go to Indonesia from time to time. Right now being in Indonesia doing my job it gives me the chance to link up with persons and organizations I use to work with that still needs my help in the marine ornamental like Ruwi and others in Makasar, Ambon and Bali. It gives me the chance to trace the collectors I have trained during IMA’s days in Tumbak. I even found out some of them have moved to Gorantalo, still collecting ornamental fish with the last few nets that were my surplus from IMA’s training years ago. Now they need nets and I am going to provide it. Again I spend my own money from my earnings. Is that wrong? Should I just turn around and go home after my own work is finish?
I do not mind spending part of my income to do some work in helping the ornamental industry but how about you? Do you think writing "Smoking Guns" in the RDO and looking for people to criticize enough to make the problem go away? Does it really give you that much satisfaction?
Let me ask you, why do you keep harping on where I derived my income? Faultfinding and issues of “Smoking Guns” will never help this industry. Unless you want to take my place in the field because it is people in the field that matters right now that makes things happen and makes things go forward. You are most welcome to it. I will gladly relinquish it to you. I will even introduce the collectors, middlemen and honest exporters to you. Point you into the right direction. Just be ready to spend your own money. Let me see if you have the guts and unselfish attitude to do it.
If you want to look for wrong doings in every nook and cranny I really would not mind if you are more objective, again let me repeat, constructive, broader in outlook and looking in the right direction. I can never understand why you single us out with a few other individuals trying honestly to help. Would you like us to stop? Give up? Or is it because we do not have money and hundreds of thousands of dollars? Point your “Smoking Gun” somewhere else where hopefully it could do more good if it ever does.
Here is an attachment of what I sometimes do in Indonesia. It is not hard. It might convince you to take over my job and you can have a choice. Philippines or Indonesia. Just say the word and come down here.
Ferdinand
I could not response earlier and was knock out of the RDO because somebody out there does not like me. I was sent 72 viruses that crashed my PC and destroyed most of the files. Spent a month to reconstruct everything and get my computer going.
What is the beef about Indonesia? Indonesia has a big problem with cyanide too. Why shouldn’t I help? Don’t you know that exporters there are now forcing importers to get the same amount of cyanide fish if they order a certain amount of corals? Right now I am in Manado, Indonesia to do my own income generating work and when an exporter, Blue Star found out, the owner flew down from Jakarta to ask for some assistance. Ambon is catching blue tang and navarchus in volume with cyanide. It so happens I know the middleman and shippers and are also here right now talking to me so why shouldn’t I help out? What a myopic view to think that Philippines should be the only major focus….
Jaime, I give out nets here in Indonesia even during IMA’s, MAC’s time and even up to now. Especially now that we have two kinds of nets one of which were donated through the efforts of Mary M and Mike K.
To put malicious speculation to rest I think explaining where I derived my means of livelihood and how I can move will put all the evil thoughts to rest. I did not want to response before because it is none of your business. Somebody out there asked me this earlier but through a private email. I answered him. You should have done that.
Well here it is: Aside from people who has been helping me, a small personal savings that is gone now and with a very supportive family when I got out of MAC I started again what I was doing pre IMA days. I do FISH. Before you jump into conclusions I am sorry to say it is not ornamental fish but groupers. I work in the field of rearing groupers in fish cages to marketable sizes. I am consulted for a fee of course on how and where to catch, sort, care, and transport grouper fry and fingerlings to fish cages. I am consulted on how to pack, ship and link fish cage owners to the right market. I am consulted on how to prevent probable fish kills. This job gives me also the chance to visit ornamental collecting sites in the Philippines. Of course I spend part of my own earnings to visit the ornamental sites. Every month for ten days more or less I go to these grouper cages with all my expenses paid. My other work is I am a consultant to western persons who have small-scale businesses or investments in Asia that have Asian partners. Imagine the problems of a business when western ideas and standards are forced down the throats of Asians. Shortcuts are made and chaos reigns. Things do not work out, money is lost and relationships are strained. I act as the go-between that is trusted and acceptable to both parties. In short I marry the east and the west. I get paid by the hour by western standards and I think you know the rates paid to consultants in the West. I work 8 days a month all expenses paid hotels, airfare and car rentals. That is why I go to Indonesia from time to time. Right now being in Indonesia doing my job it gives me the chance to link up with persons and organizations I use to work with that still needs my help in the marine ornamental like Ruwi and others in Makasar, Ambon and Bali. It gives me the chance to trace the collectors I have trained during IMA’s days in Tumbak. I even found out some of them have moved to Gorantalo, still collecting ornamental fish with the last few nets that were my surplus from IMA’s training years ago. Now they need nets and I am going to provide it. Again I spend my own money from my earnings. Is that wrong? Should I just turn around and go home after my own work is finish?
I do not mind spending part of my income to do some work in helping the ornamental industry but how about you? Do you think writing "Smoking Guns" in the RDO and looking for people to criticize enough to make the problem go away? Does it really give you that much satisfaction?
Let me ask you, why do you keep harping on where I derived my income? Faultfinding and issues of “Smoking Guns” will never help this industry. Unless you want to take my place in the field because it is people in the field that matters right now that makes things happen and makes things go forward. You are most welcome to it. I will gladly relinquish it to you. I will even introduce the collectors, middlemen and honest exporters to you. Point you into the right direction. Just be ready to spend your own money. Let me see if you have the guts and unselfish attitude to do it.
If you want to look for wrong doings in every nook and cranny I really would not mind if you are more objective, again let me repeat, constructive, broader in outlook and looking in the right direction. I can never understand why you single us out with a few other individuals trying honestly to help. Would you like us to stop? Give up? Or is it because we do not have money and hundreds of thousands of dollars? Point your “Smoking Gun” somewhere else where hopefully it could do more good if it ever does.
Here is an attachment of what I sometimes do in Indonesia. It is not hard. It might convince you to take over my job and you can have a choice. Philippines or Indonesia. Just say the word and come down here.
Ferdinand
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