MAC's spokestoken...

[Ad van Tage]

Is there a person on this forum, who has been charged by MAC to field questions relating to the Industry Behind the Marine Aquarium Hobby? And if so, in what capacity?

I have been following these boards for a while and am having a hard time figuring out if in fact we have an official MAC-voice present.

If there is, will that voice please pipe up?

 

[mkirda]

Yes and no...

We know that personnel within MAC read this board religiously (Hi, guys!).
There is also a MAC Board member who reads here and posts regularly, just not on MAC-related topics. He *used* to, but then quit doing so. I don't think it was ever his 'official' task- I think he did so out of a desire to help, but it was quite difficult for him.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[JennM]

I wish there was an official MAC spokesperson - they'd lend themselves a lot more credibility if they could just give some straight answers without double talk.

If there is no date set for a CDT - SAY SO! If there is no CAMP in place for a collection area, SAY SO!

Transparency is the name of the game.

IMO it would be much easier to be supportive of an organization if it laid all its cards on the table, sought help on its weaknesses and admitted its flaws BEFORE selling certifications that aren't worth the paper they are printed on, and before launching massive advertising campaigns.

If the Acme Widget Comany started a huge advertising campaign for its widgets, before production ever begun, or before they could produce more than a dozen or so widgets per week, the company would fail before it even started, because it put its cart before its horse. Don't promise what you cannot deliver.

MAC BOD members read this board. They gave up on me and many here a long time ago, because they know we can see through the smoke and mirrors PR campaign, and we look at the real issues. They have chosen to ignore the very people who *could* help them resolve some of the problems facing their undertaking. I believe the cliche is, "Cutting off one's nose to spite one's face"...

MAC can advertise all they want, create all the media hype they want, spew their message from the rooftops -- at the end of the day, any consumer who buys into it is going to have a hell of a time trying to find a MAC certified fish anyway - and when they go to their retailer to ask, many will get the other side of the story.

I've had a good chuckle or three at MAC's expense with customers/hobbyists who read this board but never post - not only MAC types lurk here, the consumer does too.

MAC *could have* (tried?) used this forum as a place to dispell untruths, but alas they could not, and when they did (unofficially or otherwise), the temper got in the way, and did further damage.

Perhaps that's why the MAC rep that shows himself here has resorted to cutting and pasting news articles, often about non-aquarium trade issues, and keeping his own thoughts to himself.

Another opportunity missed.

Wonder when the good people who fund MAC, are going to see the light?

Jenn

 

[MaryHM]

John Brandt is the MAC board member on this board. In fact, he used to be moderator of this board. He does fine when it comes to cut and pasting articles or blatantly attacking those that question MAC, but when it comes to answering any of the hard questions he's mysteriously absent. Honestly, I don't blame him. It sucks to be asked direct, simple, extremely relevant questions and not be able to have answers. Frankly, I think MAC stuck him out on the front lines here but didn't have the ammunition to back him up. But hey, silent spokespeople are MAC's favorite type! Look at little what's-his-face from Finding Nemo. He's an official MAC spokesperson. Exactly what has he "spoke" about?????

 

[mkirda]

It sucks to be asked direct, simple, extremely relevant questions and not be able to have answers. Frankly, I think MAC stuck him out on the front lines here but didn't have the ammunition to back him up.

Mary,

John is a friend of mine- I know him fairly well, I understand his mindset with regards to MAC and I know that he wants to see it work. When he tried to answer questions, the truth of the matter is that he (and MAC) were attacked worse than before. In the end, I think they made a conscious decision to no longer post in this forum because they just thought it would be easier.

It is easy when debating something you feel passionate about to lose sight of being objective. Anger is the enemy of rational thought. Debate about ideas is never personal. Yet some people do not recognize this and become angry and take things personally. The debate then becomes irrational.

I have seen both sides of the MAC debate decend into the irrational before, and having met many now on both sides of the debate, I could easily identify whom hates whom and why. This is a pity actually that people cannot divorce the irrational from the rational and go on to discuss ideas and debate issues openly and rationally.

An honest question: Did we ruin a possible good thing?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[blue hula]

Mike,

The questioning escalated primarily because MAC doesn't own up to what is going on.

In my own case, had MAC simply said "no we haven't done the resource assessments but this is our plan to get them done, and sorry for the confusion re: the marine protected area in Batasan - indeed it was preexisting and not our initiative" I would have backed right off. But the emperor muststay clothed.

I came on to the board a supporter of MAC. It is their inability to admit that all is not yet perfect in certification land, combined with a fulll-steam- ahead approach to certification in the absence of any fish that CAN be certified according to their VERY OWN standards that has turned me into a watchdog.

Perhaps it is my background as a scientist. We are trained to formulate a strategy / hypothesis, collect data, see if it works and then make an honest presentation of these data and the assessment to other interested parties.

I apply the same standards to MAC given the public role they are playing in the industry .

Did we ruin a possibly good thing ? No. MAC did through their refusal to put fishers and reefs first and their willingness to greenwash fish through a certification program with no basis in reality.

And Mike, apart from Kalk who drives me around the bend (take it as a compliment Kalk), I have no personal feelings about any one on this board. It is very easy to get sufficiently fired up about the issues ... let alone the personalities.

Sincerely,

Dr. Jessica Meeuwig

 

[Piero]

"An honest question: Did we ruin a possible good thing?"
-Probably

I suspect MAC has become completely numb to this forum and its more emotional contributors, after years of unecessary drama..they likely just tuned most of you out.

Anyone from MAC who would willingly place themselves on this forum for you all to rip to shreds daily would have to have a good shrink, or a burning desire for a stress-related ulcer...

I don't blame MAC for staying out of here, perhaps this forum(although i love reading it and getting entertainment from the chronic drama) is doing more harm than good with the way topics are discusses so angrily and subjectively. Seems to be a good archive of reactionary behavior if you ask me.

Just my .02 though... If I posted more I'm sure I'd be one of the drama queens too..:wink:
_________________
Marijuana Rehab Forum

 

[Anonymous]

As a relatively new consumer to the industry (my first little 30g tank is barely over a year old) I have to agree with Piero's assessment.

I find more objection to the emotional outbursts from "professionals" on the issue than with MAC's apparent lack of an official "spokesperson". I find myself questioning a businesses motives when they attack so vehemently from an obviously emotional perspective. - That's just my outlook though...

But I admit, I am somewhat biased into giving MAC a chance. I know and trust someone in the industry who thinks highly enough of MAC to court a paid position with them.

 

[clarionreef]

Guys...
Please read blue hulas last post...made while you were worrying about poor MAC, the "underdogs."
Read it and get out more. The first dalliance with a "reform eco-ngo" may lead you to think that they are really environmentalists...when the exact reverse is true.
Evolving before our eyes from a group with a reform mandate...into siding with the status quo...they have become a front for the aquarium trade as it stands.
The field incompetence, abandoning the frontlines, ignoring reformers for years [after absorbing all there was to take from them...and re-label as their own], the fake CAMPs, the non netting to the divers policy, etc are all inexplicable to those of us who depend on the trade for our livlihoods and want it to survive and improve.
The good in you weeps for the underdog...the mercy in you objects to the poor voices on this forum 'piling on' ...piling on the richer ones trying to maintain the cyanide trade w/out interruption as long as they can.
You got it all wrong. You're watching Braveheart here and you're sorry for the English king.
Steve

 

[Piero]

well said Steve,
I actually missed Blue Hula's post on my first pass, or else he posted while i was writing mine.

I'm not feeling sorry for MAC. Believe me I've got my beefs. I'm just saying that I understand how they could have become desensitized to this forum over time...

A year ago a read every post in here intently....nomore though...numbness creeping in.

My opinion does tend to fluctuate a bit, but currently my outlook on the possibilities of a net-caught hobby in the future are grim...

But tomorrow is another day, and another chance for hope I suppose... :wink:
_________________
recessions history

 

[dizzy]

But I admit, I am somewhat biased into giving MAC a chance. I know and trust someone in the industry who thinks highly enough of MAC to court a paid position with them.

Grateful,
You just explained a lot.
Thanks

 

[JennM]

You really missed Blue Hula's post otherwise you'd have noticed she's a woman.

I've seen BOTH sides get cranky in this forum. However I have also seen MAC critics post calm, concise questions, and time after time they are ignored. Why? Often we all know the answers and they aren't acceptable answers based on the bill of goods that MAC is selling.

The truth hurts sometimes.

Same calm questions have been posed by email - where questioner and respondant have time to calmly edit replies - again, silence.

Just because MAC might not like those questioning them, doesn't mean they shouldn't at least attempt to answer the questions - but then they have even refused to answer questions posed by those who have actually put up the money for certification....

Sometimes it's better to suck it up and actually acknowleged the critics. If MAC is what it proports to be, it should have answers that will shut down even the staunchest critics. Fact is, it doesn't. So the entity turns tail and runs away from criticism.

It just boggles my mind that there are still people willing to pay for "certification" (cough) and that there are foundations, and organizations actually throwing money at MAC - - what for? They aren't getting very good value for their dollars.

Jenn

 

[mkirda]

In my own case, had MAC simply said "no we haven't done the resource assessments but this is our plan to get them done

This has bothered me as well, but for different reasons.

I know for a fact that resource assessments were done. I also know approximately when. Why? Because I talked to the 'boss' of the gentleman who did them and I trust that he didn't lie to me.

The weirdness for me was when MAC was confronted by an accusation that resource assessments had not been done, they never countered that with the truth that they had actually been done. I never understood why not. Questions I asked to them directly on this topic went unanswered... Maybe because they understood that I had met and spent time with Ferdinand Cruz? But that also presupposes that I cannot think for myself.

In private, MAC members have addressed this topic with me. Bohol is an area where the reefs are in rough shape. They feel that getting a management plan in place in areas where the reefs are in rough shape is a good thing. I happen to agree with them 100% on this.
But why not trumpet this to the world?
Why be afraid of it?

I think that MAC was afraid of the following exchange:
MAC: These areas are certified, here are the results...
Anti-MAC: {looking at resource assessments} But these areas are depleted? Why certify them?
MAC: Because we feel that putting a management plan in place in depleted areas is very important- we need to show that this can work even in depleted areas.
Anti-MAC: Ok. (puzzled because there is no real way to refute this logic)

I don't think they needed to be afraid of this sort of questioning.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

If MAC is what it proports to be, it should have answers that will shut down even the staunchest critics. Fact is, it doesn't. So the entity turns tail and runs away from criticism.

Jenn,

This is not true. In any debate, you will have a diversity of opinions that range to the extreme. No matter what their answer is, there is going to be a percentage that will never be satisfied with the answer. I think that MAC feels that many of us are in that extreme zone, and understanding that they cannot satisfy us, they ignore us. ("us" being a theoretical extreme, not you and I, Jenn... )

I like to think that some of us have good ideas, and that many/most of us want to see MAC meet its Mission Statement. Some feel it is falling short of it, and want to bump it along so that it doesn't fall short of it. Anything less would feel like failure. I've pointed out areas where I feel MAC needs to tighten up their standards both publicly and privately. I don't want to see MAC fail. I want to see it live up to its promise.

Shouting into the wind will do nothing- MAC has to hear us. I'm hoping that they still have an ear pointed in our direction.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

Piero,
Every tropical fish diver in Ausralia catches with nets.
Every tropical fish diver in Hawaii catches with nets.
Every diver in Fiji ...
Every diver in Sri Lanka...
Every diver in Vanuatu...
Every diver in Palau....
Every diver in Ponape...
Every diver in the Marshalls...
Every diver in Christmas Island....
Every diver in Mexico....
Western countries, village societies, disparate cultures....
In the hands of competence this thing is already solved!
The last two heads of aquarium reform NGOs live in Hawaii...niether of em ever figured out where the proper commercial netting material comes from. That alone should tell you a great deal.
The absolute refusal to take seriously the craft of fish collecting and what it takes to train divers has crippled every office-bound NGO that assumes the mantle of trade saviour.
This arrogant, pig headed attitude is a guarantor of failure and has been the reason for the professionals among us who know better..to protest.
To knowingly let it slide for another decade would make us accomplices would it not?
Net training and net catching is a common, professional option. In as much as some outsiders think not, defines them, not our potential to better ourselves as a trade.
Sincerely, Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Grateful,
You just explained a lot.
Thanks

Assume all you like.

You're welcome.

 

[clarionreef]

Grateful,
You might want to re-phrase what you said.
You said Ric thought 'highly enough' of an outfit to seek employment with them?
Isn't is supposed to work the other way around?
And in view of all that you've been reading here...don't you think there are enough 'Honkeys' running this schtick?
What is needed is field savy, aquarium conversant Filipinos who can facilitate something clean and honest so that the claims in America can at least start to become credible.
Steve
PS.
I think highly of the NY Giants... I think I'll apply for a job there.
They're firing the coach for failure to provide results...what a concept!

 

[Anonymous]

Grateful,
You might want to re-phrase what you said.
You said Ric thought 'highly enough' of an outfit to seek employment with them?
Isn't is supposed to work the other way around?
And in view of all that you've been reading here...don't you think there are enough 'Honkeys' running this schtick?
What is needed is field savy, aquarium conversant Filipinos who can facilitate something clean and honest so that the claims in America can at least start to become credible.
Steve
PS.
I think highly of the NY Giants... I think I'll apply for a job there.
They're firing the coach for failure to provide results...what a concept!

Wow... - Talk about mis-quoted!

Ric....?? - Who's Ric? - I never mentioned the name of the person I know who was being interviewed, but his name is not Ric..

And did I say that this person applied or was asked to interview when I said "court a paid position"? (For the record, I don't know what the case is, but my gut tells me that he was asked...)

At any rate, the person I know, I think highly of because of the fact that he is ethical. I spent much time in his shop watching his and his staffs interactions with customers and developed my respect for him from that. It isn't a case where I immediately knew the person, began thinking highly of them and am now impressed because MAC was looking to possibly hire him... :roll: - I'm impressed because he is somehow or other obviously taking on a huge risk to walk away from an already successful and growing business to begin working with an organization whose foundation seems shaky to me.

The interpretation I took from dizzys response is that I can be effectively disregarded because I associate with bottom-feeders.. - Please, correct me if this was not the intent Dizzy...?


Norm

 

[dizzy]

Norm,
You missed my point entirely. It was not directed toward you. I am going to edit my post and just say that there are two MAC certifed retailers in Michigan. You must be talking about Mark SS. Mark is a good guy who would be a fine addition to MAC. I think both retailers believe in MAC and want to see it succeed. I will stand by my comment that the organization will be better served by employees who compell them to be transparent and honest. Ends justify the means doesn't often work so well.

Mitch

 

[MaryHM]

To address the concerns that some of us are too "emotional", I'll speak to my own feelings on this. Am I emotional about the subject of industry reform??? YES! Is that a bad thing? MAC didn't used to think so. They thought it was great. I was talking about industry reform before I ever even knew MAC existed. As long as my emotions were behind them, pushing their cause, everything was wonderful. Then I started questioning them- only within the MAC camp. I was still publicly talking the MAC talk. But in private I was asking some hard questions. At first they gave very pat answers. Eventually I caught them in a few out and out lies. My "emotions" toward them at that point started to get skeptical. I then took my "emotions" to the AMDA board of directors- because at that time I was the AMDA representative to the MAC board of directors. I spoke only to the AMDA board and members about what I was seeing- still keeping my "emotions" away from the general public. At this point, MAC really began to show their true colors. More lies, more coverups. And this is not my imagination- others witnessed it too. Finally, at the Marine Ornamentals Conference in 2001, everything broke loose. More blatant out and out LIES from MAC to me. Instead of answering questions or admitting there were problems, they lied to cover their butts. Being as involved as I had been for the past 3 years, I was easily able to see through their smokescreen. I have no tolerance for liars and it was at this point I realized MAC wasn't interested in reform, they were interested in keeping the grant money flowing. And THAT is when I went public. So you see, even working within the system MAC has never been very good at answering questions. They are very good at giving answers that sound good to people who don't know any better. Which is why so many are so easily fooled by them. Emotional?? You better believe it. I worked so hard promoting them for years, only to be deceived. You all have only seen the final culmination of my emotions- not all of the hard work and "friendly" questioning I did long before this board was ever even thought about. See, many of us have been pushing for reform for years- it didn't just occur to us the day reefs.org put this forum up. You better believe I am emotional about this industry. It is my livelihood. I don't have the luxury of just sitting back and reading the "drama" that most of you do. I have to live it. Guess that makes me a bit more emotional than others. Show me once in here where MAC has provided any of us in this forum with an honest, forthright answer or feasible solution to any question and then were ignored and shredded to bits. Just show me one example and then maybe I'll believe the "poor little MAC was attacked by all these emotional people and that's why they don't post in here" argument.