• Why not take a moment to introduce yourself to our members?

jamesw

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I think it's fair to ask who you are talking with, don't you?

Especially when the posters "screen-name" is "ADVANTAGE" right?

I'd like to know as well, and I've asked Mr/Ms. ADVANTAGE many times who he or she is? So, who are you? I've introduced myself (it's the polite thing to do) so I consider it rude when I get snubbed without so much as a "Nice to meet you James." C'mon now!

And as for Steve's comments that John Brandt became nasty and vindictive - well, if he did, it was only as escalation because OTHERS became nasty and vindictive as well. So it's not fair to single John out and call him names like that - unless you look in the mirror and do the same for yourself.

Cheers
James
 

clarionreef

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James,
The cornerstone of our very Democracy is dialogue and debate.
This campaign season will underscore that a million times.
However...you will not witness the politeness and tedious protocols you see in English style Democracy that much. This is America and we as a culture and a people....mix it up and risk all to win the point, the day and the election.
When peoples livlihoods are at stake they will tend to lend more weight to the issues than when their livlihoods are not at stake.
To suggest that issues are best avoided unless couched in the semantics you prefer is puzzling. To be sure, some people have thinner skin than others. These are the people best suited for non-front line activity.
If there is no one representing a group that can stand up and defend his positions then what kind of group is that to claim to represent multi-stake holders and win-win scenarios?
If its worth anything, is it not worth fighting for?
I agree with your call for civility.
I also agree that people claiming to represent my trades best shot at reforming and saving itself better stop hiding from dissenting opinions when the going gets rough. That suggests to me that they really don't understand the issues well enough to defend themselves in public and therefore do not understand the issues well enough to solve them.
If they are going to covet and claim this aquarium trade reform era as their own, and expect us all to remain quiet while they slowly get it wrong...year after year, a little anger from the stakeholders in question is perfectly understandable.
Watching a positive future disappear before our very eyes is more devastating and infuriating then you could possibly know.
Steve
 

dizzy

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James,
I agree with you for once. The local newspaper here will only print editorials from people who give their name, address, and a telephone number where they can be reached. And yes they do call and verify that you are that actual person before running any type of controversal material. :wink:

Perhaps we need two Industry Forums. One for people who have the courage of their convictions. And one for people who like to participate just as long as there can be no consequences for their actions.
Mitch Gibbs
 

JennM

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jamesw":mlelagut said:
And as for Steve's comments that John Brandt became nasty and vindictive - well, if he did, it was only as escalation because OTHERS became nasty and vindictive as well. So it's not fair to single John out and call him names like that - unless you look in the mirror and do the same for yourself.

Cheers
James

Two wrongs NEVER add up to a right. I'm not buying your excusing John Brandt's personal attacks, 'just because'. He chose to put his MAC credentials on his signature, which made him a spokesperson for MAC, and when the going got tough, John got personal with those with whom he had a history of animosity. I submit that John's temper was his own undoing, nothing more, nothing less.

I never made it personal with John. I have issues with MAC and I kept it to that, but he chose to attack me and my business personally. To that end I contacted the moderators for assistance, which was rendered, with thanks. Since that time, I have not had any cause to complain about the decorum on this forum, or any forum at RDO in which I participate. I can disagree, and do so with decorum.

It's not right to make it personal, but sometimes it takes a bigger person not to stoop to that level, when a shot is taken.

Jennifer Myerscough
 

Ad van Tage

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John_Brandt":26aw62pg said:
Ad,

I will communicate with you about this as soon as you tell me and the forum who you are without ambiguities.

Mike [Kirda], given what you have written on other threads, would

mkirda":26aw62pg said:
This is an example of making things personal when there is no need.
not have been a great reminder, that when courtesy and respect go out the window, there is not much hope for a fruitful dialogue!

One then ends up with (the modified)
We know the reasons why John should no longer posts as a representative of MAC.

I sincerely hope we can arrive at a more professional and less partisan dialogue on this forum,
a dialogue which will be devoid of personal slings and arrows.

Let's all try to deal more with the messages,
rather than with the messengers!!!
Deal in facts and not fiction.

I trust this post will be treated as such!

Three Kings is tomorrow, so today
is the last day one can say:
"Happy :D New Year y'ALL!"
 

mkirda

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vitz":2wkyaswr said:
hmm..

i don't get why the identity of the poster is more important than the questions being asked, john.

does the answer change depending on who you're telling the answer to?

No, but how you frame your reply does, depending on the audience.

If you were to ask me a camera question, I'd want to have some idea what level you at with camera gear and film and such before I would attempt to answer the question. Otherwise I could easily go completely over your head, or answer it in a way that could be construed as condescending, all because I'm not sure what your level is.

Here you guys are reading some sort of sinister intent out of John, then implying things about him... All he wants to know is whom he is addressing.

I dunno, but given the chilly and generally hostile reception to his simple question, I'm not sure I'd ever bother coming back if I were in his shoes.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

JennM

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Mike, I admire your loyalty to your friend.

However, since the questions are being asked in a public forum (versus privately), it would be perfectly acceptable to answer any question in a most elementary way, so that any reader might understand.

My comprehension of certain things might be at a higher level than some (and a lower level than others) but I would have no objection to receiving a very elementary answer to any question I posed, lest somebody else achieve a higher understanding.

Speaking only for myself here, but I'm sure others will chime in.

I answer a lot of hobbyist questions, both in my shop and in various forums online. I always assume that even if the person asking, has a higher understanding, I explain my reply as simply as possible - never got a bad reaction to it, and in fact other readers have commented to the positive.

One can be elementary without being condescending.

On the other hand, if an answer given is above my head, I have no problem asking the person responding, to elaborate further.

It's called communication ;)

Jenn
 

mkirda

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cortez marine":1kqr2kbw said:
Dear Ad,
Don't tell anybody nothin!
To withhold judgement on your words pending an I.D. is silly. Who cares who you are if you make sense. I sure don't. Truth spoken by a child is worth more than lies spun by a PhD....So ignore em.

So, you'd give the same answer of what 'sustainability' is to a six year old and to someone who has a PhD in Marine Environmental Policy?
God, I'd hope not...

Yes, people, you answer questions differently depending on whom you are talking to. Think about it for a second and you can recognize this behaviour in yourself.

Hell, we even let you hold forth on the issues of the day if you're a service guy!
Hows that for tolerance?
Steve

It is a bad example, Steve.

I know you and know this is an attempt at humor: In a small way it is funny, but it is also a blatant dig at John. I guess I don't see the point in it.
Sure doesn't add to the discussion. Why waste time on it?

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

dizzy

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Mike,
We need to go back and take a look at Ad Van Tage's questions. They were simply enough. Ad was just asking for an update on the CDT. It really was a fair enough question and it shouldn't make all that much difference who asked it. I agree that John is being made the fall the guy, but why don't one of the other MAC people jump in and give him some support?
Mitch
 

mkirda

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JennM":3cyazzjd said:
Mike, I admire your loyalty to your friend.

It is not just that, Jenn.
I had a bad feeling from the day it was announced.
I saw him as a human being set up to fail.

James put it best in the other thread: Having a MAC Spokesperson as a Moderator was like tying him to a post with both hands behind his back, then battering him with 2 by 4s. When he finally flailed back, man, you guys are *STILL* talking about it...

Someone has to turn the other cheek sometime... You know, forgive and forget... Turn over a new leaf and all that...

Here I am working behind the scenes, trying to see if we can restart a constructive dialog with MAC in the Industry Forum.

One post.

Ton of bricks.

Guess that was all for naught. I had thought that time would have healed a few wounds and we might be ready for a good, constructive dialog again.

Sorry I was wrong.
Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

dizzy

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mkirda":3evcod88 said:
Hell, we even let you hold forth on the issues of the day if you're a service guy!
Hows that for tolerance?
Steve

It is a bad example, Steve.

I know you and know this is an attempt at humor: In a small way it is funny, but it is also a blatant dig at John. I guess I don't see the point in it.
Sure doesn't add to the discussion. Why waste time on it?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Mike,
Actually it may not just have been directed at John. Randy G. is also in service, and so too were almost the entire BOD that voted to endorse MAC without bothering to to check with the retail members of AMDA for their opinions.
 

clarionreef

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Mike,
As a primary confidant and spokesman for awhile...John had an opportunity to do a great deal of good. We all know they are not aquarium people and since John is...albiet a service guy, he was the one they used as a guide thru the thicket.
To see how little influence he has had is unfortunate. Perhaps they didn't listen to him or perhaps they did and he merely gave them what they wanted. The fact remains that the squandering of time and opportunity is costing us a brighter future and this trade is futher and futher from salvation with each years coral kill under its belt.
It kills me how many 'reef people' can stand by and watch the
fish trade kill their beloved reefs...Don't you care enough to want to be more effective??
By all means remain civil as long as you can...but not in the way you treat Kalk. That is not a blueprint anyone can follow so in your future skirmishes with him, I'll be taking notes.
If this issue and the failure to resolve it affected your life more directly, you might see it differently. This is no game for many of us...and the mishandling of it by amatuers is galling and infuriating.
Its 2004 Mike...and they have three dead zones semi trained and one CIA venue coming up in Mindinao. 5 years and several million to get that far?? Give me a break.
Steve
 

mkirda

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cortez marine":2e8dacg3 said:
That suggests to me that they really don't understand the issues well enough to defend themselves in public and therefore do not understand the issues well enough to solve them.

This is only but one of many possible explanations, Steve.

Watching a positive future disappear before our very eyes is more devastating and infuriating then you could possibly know.
Steve

Anger is a gift and a curse, Steve.
If you can harness the energy to become focused and fight, it is a gift.
If instead you flail around and injure or alienate your friends and allies, it is a curse.

I hope you will use it to focus instead of flail. I think it very important that you do.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

JennM

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mkirda":1l0aof8z said:
JennM":1l0aof8z said:
Mike, I admire your loyalty to your friend.

It is not just that, Jenn.
I had a bad feeling from the day it was announced.
I saw him as a human being set up to fail.

James put it best in the other thread: Having a MAC Spokesperson as a Moderator was like tying him to a post with both hands behind his back, then battering him with 2 by 4s. When he finally flailed back, man, you guys are *STILL* talking about it...

Someone has to turn the other cheek sometime... You know, forgive and forget... Turn over a new leaf and all that...

Here I am working behind the scenes, trying to see if we can restart a constructive dialog with MAC in the Industry Forum.

One post.

Ton of bricks.

Guess that was all for naught. I had thought that time would have healed a few wounds and we might be ready for a good, constructive dialog again.

Sorry I was wrong.
Regards.
Mike Kirda

Well, I never understood why the powers that be here at RDO placed John in that position - IMO it was a conflict of interest... but that was their decision to make, and John accepted the job. I remember his candor at MASNA BOD meetings too... he knew what he was signing up for, for better or for worse. That doesn't justify personal attacks, but he had to know that he was setting himself up for a rough ride.

I personally, don't recall hurling brick bats at John Brandt. I did hurl them at MAC and I remember at the time thinking that the rest of the MAC BOD left John hanging out to dry. We all have known other MAC BOD members to lurk here, yet nobody stepped up to cover John's back. Pretty rotten, IMO. I also observed John get downright mean, and I don't deny that he was without reason - most of us in his shoes would have reacted similarly.

Again, I can only speak for myself. I've always tried to "not kill the messenger".

I don't think you were wrong - I just think that the issues keep going back to past experience with John as the MAC spokesperson. For most of us it's the only frame of reference we have.

But that's all over and done now. It has been suggested that MAC place (another) presence on this board. Another person on the board isn't going to change the questions. All I and others appear to be looking for is some transparency, and some honest answers.

I would think that any MAC Rep, John Brandt or otherwise, would be met with a civil reception if we could just get some clear answers.

Jenn
 

dizzy

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mkirda":rxzyj4kf said:
[It is not just that, Jenn.
I had a bad feeling from the day it was announced.
I saw him as a human being set up to fail.
Mike Kirda

Mike I'm just curious as to who you think set him up? James obviously wanted someone who would promote the MAC agenda. I saw it as some sort of payback to Mary who had appeared to use the forum to defy the MAC. The timing was particularly bad as John had recently returned from an all expenses paid vacation to PI at the MAC expense. He may have been thrown to the wolves, but he showed up wearing fireproof headgear and seemed eager for the challenge.
 

JennM

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dizzy":3fn0od7y said:
mkirda":3fn0od7y said:
[It is not just that, Jenn.
I had a bad feeling from the day it was announced.
I saw him as a human being set up to fail.
Mike Kirda

Mike I'm just curious as to who you think set him up? James obviously wanted someone who would promote the MAC agenda. I saw it as some sort of payback to Mary who had appeared to use the forum to defy the MAC. The timing was particularly bad as John had recently returned from an all expenses paid vacation to PI at the MAC expense. He may have been thrown to the wolves, but he showed up wearing fireproof headgear and seemed eager for the challenge.

Intersting points, Mitch.

Jenn
 

mkirda

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cortez marine":31sfn5iw said:
Mike,
As a primary confidant and spokesman for awhile...John had an opportunity to do a great deal of good. We all know they are not aquarium people and since John is...albiet a service guy, he was the one they used as a guide thru the thicket.
To see how little influence he has had is unfortunate. Perhaps they didn't listen to him or perhaps they did and he merely gave them what they wanted. The fact remains that the squandering of time and opportunity is costing us a brighter future and this trade is futher and futher from salvation with each years coral kill under its belt.

We don't know and never will. Frankly, I want to move beyond that.

It kills me how many 'reef people' can stand by and watch the
fish trade kill their beloved reefs...Don't you care enough to want to be more effective??

I'm still here and still working on things, Steve. You know I care and that I will be in it for the long haul.
By all means remain civil as long as you can...but not in the way you treat Kalk. That is not a blueprint anyone can follow so in your future skirmishes with him, I'll be taking notes.

I will not be having any further skirmishes with him, unless you call correcting him repeatedly and asking him for sources to back up his more blatantly false statements "skirmishes. We owe it to ourselves to counter his untruths with the truth.

If this issue and the failure to resolve it affected your life more directly, you might see it differently. This is no game for many of us...and the mishandling of it by amatuers is galling and infuriating.
Its 2004 Mike...and they have three dead zones semi trained and one CIA venue coming up in Mindinao. 5 years and several million to get that far?? Give me a break.
Steve

No doubt you are right here.
And the lack of tangible results by the MAC in 2003 is personally rather disappointing. We heard a lot about Bagac, Palauig and Coron in late 2002, but none of these areas ever finished certification in 2003. Since then, MAC has not published the names of any of the areas it has worked in, none of which apparently passed certification either. With the apparent demise of Aqua-Ex, it is unclear that there currently exists an export conduit for MAC certified fish either.

But if MAC is so ineffectual and so inept and so inconsequential...

Why are we even talking about them?

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

JennM

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mkirda":xxe1ts12 said:
We owe it to ourselves to counter his [Kalkbreath's] untruths with the truth.

***SNIP***

But if MAC is so ineffectual and so inept and so inconsequential...

Why are we even talking about them?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Perhaps you answered your own question... just substitute Kalk with MAC...

Jenn
 

clarionreef

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People,
Its not about a personality under siege...its about an organization that claims to represent reform of an industry whose reformers it has alienated. Pure and simple.
Yes there has been friendly fire and collateral damage...Its logical, natural and inevitable in anything worth struggling for.
John was just the lightning rod for so many peoples disaffection with MAC. It wasn't him per se. It was MAC the people were after. John was just the only one brave enough to stick up for their ruination of our chance at reforming this industry.
Steve
 

mkirda

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dizzy":zmoq776n said:
Mike I'm just curious as to who you think set him up? James obviously wanted someone who would promote the MAC agenda. I saw it as some sort of payback to Mary who had appeared to use the forum to defy the MAC. The timing was particularly bad as John had recently returned from an all expenses paid vacation to PI at the MAC expense. He may have been thrown to the wolves, but he showed up wearing fireproof headgear and seemed eager for the challenge.

I doubt it was any sort of payback to Mary, Mitch.
I cannot speak to James' agenda either. He is openly pro-MAC in his viewpoint, but I don't see him as being a complete yes man either.
I mean, you can be Catholic and Pro-choice and not be seen as a complete lunatic... :wink:

Can I point a finger at a particular individual who 'set John up'? No, there is no such person. John was eager to step in at first. He started answering questions out a genuine desire to help people understand the organization that he was part of. I don't think he really understood what he was getting into, nor do I think he ever intended to become the de-facto MAC spokesperson. Being a Board Member doesn't make you the official spokesperson, but it does give you a good insight into the organization.
In the end, I think it is just the situation- Being a moderator means you cannot take sides. And when you are on a side, you cannot exactly moderate without the appearances of taking a side either. The situation was a setup for failure for all but a few very exceptional individuals, IMO.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

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