The problem is that the idea we can over collect as an industry is silly. Th e quotas allowed by CITES has little effect of the protection of the ecosystems ............It is impossible to have any effect when our industry only removes one-billionth of the total rubble rock available .....its only if we collect all the rock from too few locations that we run into any over collection issue. But CITES seems more concern about appearances then actual protections. The controlling the total amount of harvest is pointless! How many total kilos of rock do you think is laying around on the seafloors of the 1200 islands that make up the Country of Fiji? What percentage of that total do you think we as a hobby would remove each year if we could collect as much as we wished? Now times that amount by one thousand times and you would still have less then one billionth of one percent of the total rock available to collect. The amount of product removed is tiny no matter how you slice it .........So the idea that controlling the total amount of material removed will somehow have an effect on the environment is purely for show..... Its not how much you collect ......its how much you collect and from where that effects the reef flats....... Take a look at walts site and how they explain the collection process..... http://www.pacificaquafarms.com/premium.htm That reef flat is just one of thousands in Fiji.....If that one flat is a year of collection as claimed on the site .....then that would mean there is a thousand years of collection availible.
CITES oversight on live rock.
- Thread starter dizzy
- Start date
Wow 8O 1200 islands!! last I knew there was 332 islands in the Fiji group!
The big increase must be due to so many new Islands being formed because Global warming is evaporating all the water around Fiji and depositing it here as we are suffering from a rising sea level! Thats simply amazing seeing I'm only 800 mi away 8O 8O 8O
Mike
The big increase must be due to so many new Islands being formed because Global warming is evaporating all the water around Fiji and depositing it here as we are suffering from a rising sea level! Thats simply amazing seeing I'm only 800 mi away 8O 8O 8O
Mike
Okay ......you got me..........I swam out and counted all three hundred and thirty two......... Divide the total live rock exports by 332 ......not 1200.........most of those islands look the same , i guess last time I counted ....I recounted several of the island twice or three times. :wink: But how bout lets just use the one big island........ Viti Levu. How many kilos of total live rock are in the waters of that one Island? Mike? What is the purpose of limiting the total kilos exported per year? explain to us why zero limits on the amount of rock collected .....but instead strict limits on WHERE the rock can be collected and how much can be collected per square kilometer? Would not serve the industry and the reefs in a far greater capacity? IS it because the head line "CITES scales back total live rock collection in FIJI " sounds so much better? Why is it nobody holds the organization to much logical thought?Mike R King":352ftxbw said:
Hi All,
This thread was just pointed out to me so I thought I would put in my 2 cents since I have been in the middle of all of this.
Next October C.I.T.E.S. will meet and on the agenda is the debate over Live Rock. The main argument is the clarification of scleratinia on the bottom of soft corals and mushroom rock etc. Since “order scleratinia” needs to be identified as a C.I.T.E.S. requirement it also includes Live Rock.
There are two different points of view here and it is divided by the U.S.F.W.L.S and the rest of the world. U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service still requires that anything that can be identified as once being or derived from coral to fall under permit. The rest of the world does not. We ship Europe every week Live Rock and soft corals with no C.I.T.E.S. permit required and have been for many years.
It is our view that it is ridiculous to classify the tiny piece of base under a soft coral as “order scleractinia” when 99.9% is not recognizable as a coral at all … just substrate. This also puts the quota system in a mess by counting all those pieces that should have no business on the permit in the first place. However, we do agree that Live Rock should be included on the C.I.T.E.S. for various and obvious reasons and does need to be controlled and monitored.
So, having said all that, the debate is to divide the current situation and have the U.S accept the way Europe is doing things regarding the soft coral and have Europe accept the fact that Live Rock belongs on the C.I.T.E.S.
In my personal view I support this kind of approach and hope that this will be the result. If Live Rock is not controlled on any way that will leave the doors open to any country or operator to flood the market with rock that is not being monitored or collected in any type of sustainable approach and all U.S.F.W.L.S. can do is stand by and watch it flood our boarders with no control.
On another note, our Fiji Cultured rock does not require a permit because it is not harvested from the wild and is manufactured by us and then grown in the sea. We currently have a motion before the Fiji Government to voluntarily reduce our industries rock quota by 20% per year and if approved this will mean that ALL Fiji rock will be reduced by 20% per year in an effort to get all the operators involved in aquaculture. If we get no industry support for this effort we have effectively put ourselves out of business in five years. Not a very smart business move unless you consider the amount of faith we are putting in this hobby to start looking at the alternatives.
Cheers,
Walt Smith
This thread was just pointed out to me so I thought I would put in my 2 cents since I have been in the middle of all of this.
Next October C.I.T.E.S. will meet and on the agenda is the debate over Live Rock. The main argument is the clarification of scleratinia on the bottom of soft corals and mushroom rock etc. Since “order scleratinia” needs to be identified as a C.I.T.E.S. requirement it also includes Live Rock.
There are two different points of view here and it is divided by the U.S.F.W.L.S and the rest of the world. U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service still requires that anything that can be identified as once being or derived from coral to fall under permit. The rest of the world does not. We ship Europe every week Live Rock and soft corals with no C.I.T.E.S. permit required and have been for many years.
It is our view that it is ridiculous to classify the tiny piece of base under a soft coral as “order scleractinia” when 99.9% is not recognizable as a coral at all … just substrate. This also puts the quota system in a mess by counting all those pieces that should have no business on the permit in the first place. However, we do agree that Live Rock should be included on the C.I.T.E.S. for various and obvious reasons and does need to be controlled and monitored.
So, having said all that, the debate is to divide the current situation and have the U.S accept the way Europe is doing things regarding the soft coral and have Europe accept the fact that Live Rock belongs on the C.I.T.E.S.
In my personal view I support this kind of approach and hope that this will be the result. If Live Rock is not controlled on any way that will leave the doors open to any country or operator to flood the market with rock that is not being monitored or collected in any type of sustainable approach and all U.S.F.W.L.S. can do is stand by and watch it flood our boarders with no control.
On another note, our Fiji Cultured rock does not require a permit because it is not harvested from the wild and is manufactured by us and then grown in the sea. We currently have a motion before the Fiji Government to voluntarily reduce our industries rock quota by 20% per year and if approved this will mean that ALL Fiji rock will be reduced by 20% per year in an effort to get all the operators involved in aquaculture. If we get no industry support for this effort we have effectively put ourselves out of business in five years. Not a very smart business move unless you consider the amount of faith we are putting in this hobby to start looking at the alternatives.
Cheers,
Walt Smith
I'm glad I will finally be able to sell it. I've always liked it since you first brought it to market. Across the street, I always had demand for it but no access. Now, that I am down, and no longer across, the street, I finally have access to it.walt smith":1bb99yj3 said:
Thanks for the input Walt.
Due to the freight costs from Fiji.......Future Florida aquacultured rock would out compete any man made Pacific rock. That is if aquacultured rock ever gains support. If the market some day learns to like pink aquacultured rock , whats to prevent Florida rock farmers from buying cement mixers as well? Sounds like suicide Walt ........Your only saving 50cents a pound compared to wild stuff and the cost of shipping is far too great from the Pacific. Its about three to five times the cost of the wild rock! combine that with the die off that three days out of the water Pacific rock has compared to over nite anywhere in the USA on Delta form Fla. .Can Eva Air compete with Deltas thirty cents a pound in an DL-2 ? I know 100 percent aqua cultured rock and corals from Fiji would give you a monopoly in Fiji .........BUT........ One hundred percent aquaculture might simply mean your the last one to go broke there ? Whats up Walt ?
I've seen several sources of "Florida" aquacultured rock and, as a hobbyist, I have never found any of it very attractive at all. Most of it is very dense and looks very unrealistic nor does it have the type of life on it that I prefer. When I set up a reef tank, 99% of the time it will be stocked with live stock from Indo Pacific reefs. Why on earth would I want rock from the Atlantic? I don't put Royal Grammas, Black Cap Basslets, French Angels ior Atlantic cleanup critters in my reef tanks. Now, if I was doing an Atlantic or Brazil tank, then it'd make sense.Kalkbreath":264hx4kn said:
I agree with Jeff Koutnik for the most part here. If someone can take a cement mixer, inject a little air into the mix and make light weight concrete live rock in Fiji they can do it in the Florida Keys, the Bahamas, or the Caribbean in general. I also agree with JT that I don't like the stuff that comes in on the Tampa Bay rock. Deep green water dwelling organisms don't usually fare that well in a well-lit reef tank. Crabs and mantis shrimp excluded. :wink: All I really want on live rock is a good growth of purple/pink coralline algae on the outside, and aerobic and anaerobic bacteria on the surfaces and inside of the rock. Forget the plants, sponges, and dead frags. I like rock that stacks good with good places to put the coral species I want, precisely where I want them. It is really not that hard to introduce all the biodiversity you need from the small pieces of live rock, shipped wet, that the corals are attached to. The only problem is a good foam injection pump costs around $20K so there is some upfront cost to getting started. Do a search on light weight concrete sometime. You can actually inject enough air into the fake live rock to make it float if you so desired.
Mitch
Mitch
,No fish , other then a feww like Seahorses and great whites ........... rock from Tonga and Vanuatu is permitted by their ministry of fishes .....which is over seen by the Australian fisheries. The Dominican rock is basically sent un checked. ....... but whats the point ? even CITES Countries like Japan, dont actually check the permits for corals or rock. They pretend they do, Like last week .....there were very few CITES available the ship to the USA. So the Indonesians collectors shipped extra large loads to Japan.........Knowing that not having valid permits wont be a problem in Japan. Its kinda like the Geneva convention .......were the only ones actual actually participating in the rules......... Yet when we slip up a tiny bit ........................we end up being called the bad guys , by the mass murderers no less! :wink:Dr. Reef":2nopqs6w said:
No, its not about cheating..........its about not being perfect. If 301 clams come in a shipment permitted for only 300......It should not mean the intire shipment should be seized. {which HAS taken place} One extra clam is a miscount .....not a cheat. When one shipment out of forty liverock landings has 1700 pounds of live rock in a shipment permitted for 1500.......its an oversight .....not a cheat. et , spokes people for the environment love to claim these little episodes some how are proof the laws governing the harvesting of the reefs need to be tighter.......Why not focus on the greater uncontrolled consumption of reef products? .Instead of nit picking the tiny things? ..What about the ten thousand live giant wild clams that are collected for food by Asian countries each week? Or the use of live rock as fill dirt to build air port runways? Or the dredging of live rock covered inlets to make deeper waterways for boat traffic? Why is it that ONLY WHEN THE USA IMPORTS reef products that it needs to be controlled? These other users of reef products dwarf our industry. One thousand times more wild giant clams are eaten each week worldwide .....then our industry collects.......... 1000 times More live rock has been removed to be used as fill dirt in new island construction projects then our industry has ever collected. More live rock habitat has been removed to make the boat channels deeper in Tonga then live rock removed for US reef tanks. ................... Yet, none of these greater consumers of reef product get the attention of anyone including CITES...I....World Wide organizations are more about emasculating The United States then furturing any causes There have been four genocide's world wide in which tens of millions of innocent people have been systematically killed off since the head of the United Nations took his position .....The Sudan,The killing fields , Rwanda, Somalia ......yet this "world"body has done nothing....... Worldwide organizations set up to protect the world , never seem to get around to the point of actually doing so.....Yet these hippocrates are the first to point out any stublings the USA incounters . .Pointing out imperfections of those playing the game is all too easy , when the critics are setting on their butts doing nothing. The USA is one of a limited few Nations actually participating in the protection of the world ............both Earths people and its reefs.{not just talking about doing it} No , we dont have a perfect batting average.....But we come to the plate......And at least thats better then hiding in the dug out.........complaining that were not winning the game.Dr. Reef":38y0l1yf said:
Sponsor Reefs
We're a FREE website, and we exist because of hobbyists like YOU who help us run this community.
Click here to sponsor $10:
